I voted other and now I'm posting "why"

Two thoughts.. When I played FFXI years ago, I was a hardcore gamer. I devoted most of my time when I wasn't working whatever job I was at to the game because well i really didn't have a lot of responsability or plans or anything I was playing when I wanted and didn't care much about anything else.

Now I'm older, I'm married, I have bills, I can't be that dedicated gamer I used to be. However I still like my games to be challenging, I'm not so casual that I only play once or twice a week but I'm not so hardcore that I'm on constantly.  Genrally I play 2-4 hours a day 4 or 5 days a week sometimes 6

The problem with a discussion like this is there isn't a black and white Casual vs. Hardcore. 

There's a whole scale of grey between the two.

There are people who have no life outside the game and will spend 12+ hours a day on the thing playing, I feel sorry for you too, I used to do that and I was miserable most of the time.

There are people who spend 2-4 hours in the evening every evening playing,

There are people who play all day every day of the weekend.

There are people who spread out play 2 or 3 hours and and there a few times a week 2-3 days.

So to make a judgement on whether it should be Hardcore or Casual... How to you define either one?

Definately Hardcore is those 12hour+ a day players, and Causal in the extreme sense are those people who play for 1 or 2 hours every other day or 2-3 days a week.

Ultimately the answer is that if someone spends their money to play they should get some kind of enjoyment or experience for their buck.

Ultimately I know hardcore gamers hate it but not everyone can be as dedicated and not have a life like you do. Some of us have families, jobs, dont live in our moms basement.

Ultimately in my opinion the game needs to be a little of both and more of a middle ground between Ultimate Hardcore and  Pansy Casual. I call it Hardcasual.

 WoW is not time consuming And easy. That kind of casual.

FFXI is mostly time consuming And easy too. That kind of hardcore.

I want neither. The casual I want is the type that doesn't consume lot of my playtime, not the one that makes everything easy.  Challenging/tactical fights but without the time sinks.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 WoW is not time consuming And easy. That kind of casual.

FFXI is mostly time consuming And easy too. That kind of hardcore.

I want neither. The casual I want is the type that doesn't consume lot of my playtime, not the one that makes everything easy.  Challenging/tactical fights but without the time sinks.

I am starting to wonder if you ever even played ffxi past level 50. especilaly with your comment about missing how ffxi is not rewarding a few posts above. ZM/Sea access was not easy. getting HNM gear is not easy. If you think getting an HNM drop isnt rewarding, you either 1: never got one or 2: Botted to get it. thats just one of many examples

Sky raids are easy and a grind that asspect is just like wow without the instances. Instances just dumb it down furter in wow. You know you will get it all, its just a matter of time. which makes it a timesink/grind.

FFXI is as time consuming as you make it. As long as you had a couple hours you could do stuff. Towards the end of my FFXI career I would only log on a couple hours to do dynamis and help on raids, on raid night.

Originally posted by toddze

 I am starting to wonder if you ever even played ffxi past level 50. especilaly with your comment about missing how ffxi is not rewarding a few posts above. ZM/Sea access was not easy. getting HNM gear is not easy. If you think getting an HNM drop isnt rewarding, you either 1: never got one or 2: Botted to get it. thats just one of many examples

Sky raids are easy and a grind that asspect is just like wow without the instances. Instances just dumb it down furter in wow. You know you will get it all, its just a matter of time. which makes it a timesink/grind.

FFXI is as time consuming as you make it. As long as you had a couple hours you could do stuff. Towards the end of my FFXI career I would only log on a couple hours to do dynamis and help on raids, on raid night.

I have indeed gotten to 75, no question about that.  I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment), even to get the most casual pieces of gear you had to spam the event for like 3~4 months to get the full set.. and all the Salvages I did the effort/reward ratio was even worse.. 2 years of 3-4 runs a week for 5 pieces of equipment.. Sure it felt good to finish a set but compared to the times I got kicked in the nuts by horrible drop rate, it didn't feel that rewarding imo.

But still, it never felt challenging. Only time consuming. Dynamis was rarely a challenge: kill easy mobs over and over again hoping for drop. Kirin, Omega and few Salvage bosses were quite difficult the first time around, but they could be a looot more challenging, too.  Salvage itself was a nice challenge which I liked, but it wasn't really the difficulty that made it challenging. 99% of the mobs are easy.. and the hardest bosses ain't that hard either.

But I'm not bashing FFXI by any means, it's still the best MMO I've played by far. I've just realized the downsides, no game is perfect, and  I accepted the flaws of FFXI's systems.. why would I be playing otherwise? ;)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 

 I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment),

I guess I dont understand this.

To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

Originally posted by toddze

 

I guess I dont understand this.

To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

 

Items, exp, equipment, gil and so on. XI had never a good effort/reward ratio... but whatever you got you deserved. 

---

Originally posted by toddze

---

Originally posted by Hyanmen 

 I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment),

---

 
I guess I dont understand this.
To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

---

Bingo. Unfortunately, WoW has brain-washed the MMO crowd into thinking that the only worthwhile rewards are the epic items that you get. It's the carrot-on-a-stick mentality and it's what they use to keep people playing. I never had all that great gear in FFXI, even at 75, but my accomplishments were many times more rewarding and memorable than any of my "purples" from WoW.

Originally posted by Sixpax

carrot-on-a-stick

D00D I have that carrot on a stick ... it is nifty it makes my horse go faster.

Anywho ... joking aside. I even find that kind of mentality in FFXI so it isn't just with WoW players.

Take for example the RIse of the Zilart expansion. Everyone got to sky and then stopped because now they can get their "god gear." Then they went and did Divine Might to get their earring instead of doing Arc Angels because there was no reward for Arc Angels but there is for Divine Might even though the two will open up the final mission for ZM. No one was even interested in doing AA then going back and doing DM later ...

And speaking of that final mission ... no one ever even express interest in until CoP came out and the majority of those people got past those missions. Then all of a sudden people were interested in doing ZM so people can do the mission after that to get their new earring. Why not finish ZM even though you were a misison away. The usual answer I got was "There is no point that is no reward for finishing it."

I don't know about all of you. When I beat ToAU I wasn't thrilled about getting a ring (which i rarely think about using) or a crown (which is on my mannaquin), my reward was the sense that I finished the story, the sense that I defeated a foe others were failing at, and the screen cap of my kill shot on Alexander. (and interesting story since my leader wanted to stop b/c he though we took too much time killing the BLU that we wasted 2-3 minutes while I convinced him to press forward)

Still brings a smile to my face

Anywho ... i wish others got satifaction with this game other than just digital items. There is so much more to life let alone this game than the pixels your toon is waring.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by Sixpax

carrot-on-a-stick

D00D I have that carrot on a stick ... it is nifty it makes my horse go faster.

Anywho ... joking aside. I even find that kind of mentality in FFXI so it isn't just with WoW players.

Take for example the RIse of the Zilart expansion. Everyone got to sky and then stopped because now they can get their "god gear." Then they went and did Divine Might to get their earring instead of doing Arc Angels because there was no reward for Arc Angels but there is for Divine Might even though the two will open up the final mission for ZM. No one was even interested in doing AA then going back and doing DM later ...

And speaking of that final mission ... no one ever even express interest in until CoP came out and the majority of those people got past those missions. Then all of a sudden people were interested in doing ZM so people can do the mission after that to get their new earring. Why not finish ZM even though you were a misison away. The usual answer I got was "There is no point that is no reward for finishing it."

I don't know about all of you. When I beat ToAU I wasn't thrilled about getting a ring (which i rarely think about using) or a crown (which is on my mannaquin), my reward was the sense that I finished the story, the sense that I defeated a foe others were failing at, and the screen cap of my kill shot on Alexander. (and interesting story since my leader wanted to stop b/c he though we took too much time killing the BLU that we wasted 2-3 minutes while I convinced him to press forward)

Still brings a smile to my face

Anywho ... i wish others got satifaction with this game other than just digital items. There is so much more to life let alone this game than the pixels your toon is waring.

Well you're sort of disagreeing with me and agreeing with me all at the same time.  Sure there are carrots in FFXI, but people (like yourself) also tackled things just for the bragging rights and the sense of accomplishment it brought.  Like getting to rank 10 or whatever.   Many of the FFXI accomplishements have nothing to do with gear.  Even killing NM's and HNM's was more rewarding for the kill than the actual gear.  The gear was just an added bonus.

>.> 

No bragging rights ... I don't care what other people thinking of me about winning something nor do I rub it in. It is my own personal memories that I take out of it.

and just incase anyone was confused: Carrot-on-a-Stick

I liked FF online when it came out. I thought, "hell yeah another FF game and online to boot," well thats what I thought in the begining. Long story short, I wanted to get into the storyline for FF XI online, cause I maybe weird but I really do like games for their storylines but because the game took so much time and co-op, I never really got to experience most of the story. I touched on a lot of the begning storyline only to be halted because I could not get a group together or ppl had already done that part of the storyline and did not want to do it again. I played the game for about 2 years or so, yeah I had fun but to not really be able to get into the storyline really got to me, so in the end I just found a web page with the storyline and quit FF XI. If FF XIV is really going to be aimed at the causual user then I might just pick it up when it comes out. Maybe they can tweak the toughness of the mobs in missions depending on your group "strength" that way if you only have a group of four instead of six, you can still do the mission and get to play the game. Also make it so that when a mob is easy prey, it really is easy prey. Although one good thing did come from FF XI, lol it tought me to be more patient, so now grinding in any game isn't that bad anymore.

I would definitely like it if they made it a little more casual player friendly. I mean as players grow older and such they develop more and more responsibilities limiting the time they can devote to a game so by making a little bit more casual friendly may pull in more players in the long run. One problem I did have with FFXI was that if you didn't play for a month your character was deleted. I personally hated this feature because I like to jump around and play pretty much every new mmo that comes out to see how they play; now to delete a character that I work so hard on, only discourages me as a player/customer I only hope that when this comes out this will not be a feature in the game.

Another problem I had with FFXI was the lack of quests in the game, there was only a handful of quests and most of the game revolved around grinding. Now before people get on me for QQing about grinding; I've grinded before in Everquest one of first MMOs, which the only way to level was to grind, but that was then and this is now. We've come a long way from those games and a little more side story couldn't hurt, I enjoy reading quest text and learning more about the world, but when a game only has grinding what's the point? Having an NPC ask you to kill some snakes or something because they need materials to make boots adds to the immersion a little; killing crawlers ten thousand times not so much. I'm not asking the dev's to dumb this game down to retard level like WoW, by adding in all these things to make you level up faster like rested exp, bonus exp weekends, recruit a friend, and all that nonsense, but maybe just make things a tad bit more casual player friendly.

WOW's aim isn't at the casual player... it's focus is mainly on the terrible player.  The game has been getting easier and easier as content comes out, and if by some chance something is hard... it becomes dumbed down to the point that these terrible players can actually win at it.  

There is only one thing that WOW did that I'd say is even worth mentioning, everything else in WOW can rot for all I care.

1. Gear resets every 3-4 months so that 'casuals' can catch up... one of the most retarded things I have ever laid eyes upon.  Gear resets in general to me are retarded, and one of my favorite things about FFXI is that gear you got from sky was still good even when more expansions came out.
2. Leveling in WOW is one of the biggest jokes ever.  It was really easy and very quick.  To make it even somewhat challenging people have been known to try to level without any gear, skipping training, or just not going down any skill trees.  When a game is so easy that you can succeed even when you gimp yourself that harshly... there is something seriously wrong.  What is the rush with getting to the end, I enjoyed FFXI slow pace, and hope that is prevalent in FFXIV.
3. Bosses in WOW are fun, and I would love to see more interesting fights in FFXIV.  I am not saying FFXI didn't have any interesting raid encounters, but they were kind of few and far between.  If FFXIV can give fights with the challenges of the fights in FFXI and uniqueness that WOW brings, I think it'd be amazing.

I will say this, I did love the group dynamic in FFXI, but waiting 4 hours for a party was pretty harsh.  I really do hope that when they say you can solo, it doesn't equate to being easier then partying.  Soloing should always be a viable option for easier quests/missions and progressing your character through however you gain stats, but I think grouping should always be the preferred way of wanting to progress through the game.

No No No No No no NOOOOOO a thousand million times NO.  WoW actually started as hardcore as other games, but in its current state its just a insult to the MMO community as a whole.

i think it's overall a step in the right direction. ffxi was rewarding but ultimately the timesink was nearly too much to ask of a person with things to do other than wait for a group for an hour and grind for a few more.

i'm sure they will find ways to appeal to the "hardcore" niche, as that represents a large portion of the player base in ffxi.

"Don't forget about your friends, family, work, or school." lulz

I wouldn't mind if they let up a lil bit more to be more casual, xi was kinda masochistic.

I'm about to graduate college and get a real job sometime next year so being able to log on and be productive would be more enjoyable aspect of a new mmo.  If the game has good time management even casual people can play leisurly for years.

To be honest, I'm glad, glad, GLAD, that SE is planning on making FF14 more friendly towards casual players. It means that they've learned from the mistakes they made in FF11. I'm sorry you "hardcore"/"leet" group kiddies. But some of us, actually, a lot of us, have lives outside MMO's, bills to pay, that whole jazz... and we can't spend 2+ hours anymore looking for groups just so we can finally get to do something. That just can't fly anymore. We don't have the 8+ hours available every day as we used to when we were in college, where we could literally burn through a whole evening playing FF11(I lost a lot of sleep because of that). I have always liked the FF franchise, and would like to play an FF online title again. But now ask yourselves this then, are you people honestly so damn self-involved that advocate that people like myself should be ignored in order for you "hardcore"/"leet" group kiddies to keep whatever title you made up for yourself? Do you really want, and expect SE to ALIENATE people and other fans (yes I AM a fan too) from playing their game by making it almost exclusively group centric as FF11 was? Do you not see the ridiculousness in that way of thinking?

"FF11 ain't for 'kids' It's a 'harcore' game, and noobs aren't welcome" is that honestly what you're saying? First, I find it completely hysterical that ANYBODY would try to argue the point "game XYZ ain't for kids" considering that... gasp!... it's a GAME! and trying to make a GAME sound to be more "adult"? well... that's just childish.

You ask yourselves this... if FF 11's strict, rigid, group centric mechanics were so great... then why, oh why, did SE HAVE to make change, after change, after change in FF11 to try and make it more friendly towards casual and solo players? If it was so great, then why is it that in the Q&A's they say that they're looking at WoW for ways to make the game more casual friendly?

I honestly think that some of the people here want to continue supporting FF11's strict mechanics only so they can keep some imaginary "This game is hardcore, and therefore, because I got to endgame, I'm hardcore" title. Without even bothering to think for one minute, of how ridiculous that sounds. There are many things I'd rather be considered "hardcore" to, and trust me, none of them involve an MMO. They also don't consider the selfishness of their statements because they are essentially advocating that many other players be ignored because they don't fit the same gaming profile that they are used to. Different people having different ways to play and level? Oh NOES! call the interwebz police!

Oh, and here's a little tidbit as well. Realize, just as SE is starting to realize, that the biggest demographic of players will always be the casual player, or the player who supports both group and solo play equally. NOT the hardcore crowd that apparently, seems to be comprised mostly of college kids which way too much time in their hands. Also, I would even venture a guess, that the majority of the casual friendly crowd are the ones who mainly have the money. How so? Because the majority of the casual players, are the ones that have to work, pay bills etc. Where as the majority of the "hardcore" group centric thinkers, I would venture a guess, again, it seems are mostly college kids who don't work, but use mom and dad's credit card to pay for the game.

Insult me all you want (on what in all intents and purposes is an opinion piece) but face it... when I hear about all these dedicated FF11 players who often play for longer than 6 hours, and sometimes even spend a whole evening. I can only safely assume that those players either a) don't have a life or friends to hang out with. or b) don't have a job are probably at school/college and since mom and dad are paying for his/her FF11 bill, he/she can play all day after school as they please.

Not no but HELL NO!

I'm not a hardcore player but I am sick of all the crap hand holding casual retards in the world these days. Hell they even removed some of my favorite Hamburger Helper meals for the same reason. People are too f**kin lazy to even make a damn meatball anymore let alone play an MMO that requires concious thought!  What is god waiting for ! Destroy this pathetic world already! Shit! C'mon 2012 I can't wait to see all the people that think thier shit don't sting cry like little girls

Originally posted by Cynthe

I don't have anything against one day of the week like that because it's like scheduling for golf, a painting class or studio session, a night out with your friends or something. I and many people can't do this every day or even most days.

I'm not sacrificing time away from my family and spending time with them for a game, I'll do it one day a week because that'll be MY day and understood as such just like when my family have their own days to go play soccer or swimming or dancing ect... So scheduling isn't the issue, the issue is that it's unhealthy to expect such dedication on a daily basis.

:) And yes totally true you can play 20 hrs a week, but for me it's broken down into small chunks over time.

Thank you Cynthe, honestly you seem to be one of the few here who seem to still get it :) Personally I hope SE takes opinions like your above, into consideration.

On another note. I keep hearing here this ridiculous nonsense that it takes "literally weeks" to get to max level in WoW. Really? How? Because I have been playing for at least 3 years now, and I NEVER got to max level until closer to my first YEAR! and no, I'm not talking about multiple characters here, I'm talking about ONE character. So if its taking you "literally weeks" to get to max level from 1 to 80 either

a.) You're lieing through your teeth,

b.) you're obviously using illegal software to help you progress faster

c.) You're one of those MORON players that care about ONLY getting to top level and don't even bother to enjoy the other aspects of the game, but then have the nerve to call yourself "hardcore" because you bypassed all the other beautiful aspects of the game.

d.) (this actually goes along with point (a) actually, but there's a subtle difference) you hold such disdainand such spiteful hatred for WoW that you'll make up anything to help support your point

e.) You have absolutely NO life, and NO friends in the real world, so you waste your days away on your computer

f.) all of the above

If you fall into any of these categories, then congratulations... you're a moron! Why? Because you've become so obsessed with getting to max level and get the best gear in the fastest amount of time, that you forgot how to explore and adventure with friends. In fact, you've become so self obsessed with getting to be "hardcore" that you don't even mind lieing, or cheating to get what you want. Then on top of that, try to dictate how players "should play" in order to fit your warped view of playing, and if you fall into the (e) category, then you're perhaps the saddest individual on earth.

Originally posted by Wrender

Not no but HELL NO!

I'm not a hardcore player but I am sick of all the crap hand holding casual retards in the world these days. Hell they even removed some of my favorite Hamburger Helper meals for the same reason. People are too f**kin lazy to even make a damn meatball anymore let alone play an MMO that requires concious thought!  What is god waiting for ! Destroy this pathetic world already! Shit! C'mon 2012 I can't wait to see all the people that think thier shit don't sting cry like little girls

Too bad for you, SE has already stated in Q&A's that they plan on making the game more friendly towards casual players, and even mentioned WoW as an example of a game they're looking at. So go S***k on that! "leet" kiddie.

Oh, and advocating for the whole destruction of all mankind, yourself included? LOL! I'm sorry, but the retard here seems to be you, not the casual crowd.