Hey everybody thanks for stopping by my thread. I'd like to kick off an opinion thread about the general state of gaming and MMO's in particular. My opinion follows:


From my four years of mmo experience and over sixteen of general gaming experience (those four were spent as a gulid and mutli-clan leader), I have seen a good deal of games and MMO's in particular. And it's pretty obvious that Asia dominates the MMO world, not with quality or innovation but with sheer numbers. Those numbers being the following:

1. 100000000000's of the same rehashed MMO's built from the same cartoon engines
2. No monthly fee (this is supplemented by the fact that you can't do anything without item malls)

3. And of course they have a wonderful mix of decent adult gamers facing off against the degenerate retiries and thirteen year olds who have nothing better to do with AARP or mommy's credit card, than buy imaginary items in a fictional world and pick on those who dont


So now the important part : my questions, no my PLEA. Other than the pay to play big shots soon to be released (TOR), is there an MMO that can save us? I"m still a guild leader. We're coming from another game that isn't exactly cartoony but lacks vertually any content at all.

I've tried almost every MMO out there (honestly not an exaggeration) and I couldn't stay in for more than a week. After coming from Voyage Century after 3 years of gulid leading there and then going to the same game made by Germans rather than Asians (bounty bay), I've simply been worn out. I would love to see the following in ONE GAME:

1. NO CARTOONS (if I wanted pink hair I'd watch anime)

2. MORE CRAFTING (this has been overlooked by many games, let's put in some good engineering skills, SWG wasn't bad)

3. A story and quests that actually matter (not the most important but would be nice to see)

4. GUILDS THAT CAN DO THINGS - honest, what's the point of playing a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME if we can't group up and have it mean something? Like a uniform, a creed and logo, ground to take as our own, our own castle, etc

5. Mods who castrate 13 year olds that think picking on someone 40 levels lower is "hardcore". (big one)

6. A game that is NOT JUST A HACK N SLASH LEVEL GRINDER - Honestly, if I wanted to feel more like a man than I already do, I'd pumps steroids and go submit my application for UFC, I DON'T NEED OPEN PVP TO FEEL LIKE A MAN NOR SHOULD YOU PUT GOOD GAMERS THROUGH THE BULLSHIT OF SISSY ASS PEOPLE WITH NO LIVES THAT JUST LOVE TO PICK ON PEOPLE IN A VIRTUAL WORLD BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO COME FIND MY HOUSE AND TAKE ME ON FOR SIZE.


So for GODS SAKE, someone please tell me if there's an MMO out there that's worth my time as well as my guild's. Otherwise, I think we're all just leaving MMO"S and going to play over Xbox live. (Ghost Recon is the shit)

No, you had it right the first time. I'm  waiting on TOR, that's it really. I might give Champions Online a spin, but it won't have any of the things you're looking for, I'm pretty sure.

 You might want to jump on the Mortal Online bandwagon, but that design doesn't appeal to me.

There's always 2010.

That figures, thanks though. I've looked at Mortal online and I can't really tell if I'll like it. It sounds fairly interesting with city management and such. I don't know, I would just like to see a game that allows gamers to live in a world that's not a cartoon, have fun, socialize and at the same time not be a carebear. I want to be able to build and add to the world. It just seems that game companies continue to ignore gamers and avoid any type of inovative output.

Well there is a few mmos I want to play still but ultimately if any of them fail I still have Diablo 3,Starcraft 2 and keep playing games my Xbox 360 on Xbox Live. So I'm fully prepared for any future mmo failures that might happen within the next few years. 

To the OP... great post.

Maybe MMORPG players should form a Union?  Sounds like we, the players, need some advocates and some real leadership with voices that matter to the gaming companies.

I see a metric crap-ton of posts asking for a lot fo the same things and don't see any games that have delivered. 

Let's get this Union thing happening.

Yeah that's true. I still have KOTOR for PC. And KOTOR II for Xbox. I cant compete with the 360 though, I'm poor haha. So I guess part of this I can blame on George Bush.

But anyway I hope that some US companies get their heads on straight here soon. I don't want to have to pay fifteen dollars a month to play an MMO (yes I'm talking about YOU WoW). I'd like to see some decent Western-developed MMO's be released.


Anyone up for teaming up with me and making our own? Haha. I actually used to run a development team.



And thanks BlackWatch, maybe I'll get on that, I'm already building a clan website and forums as well. We can use it.

Originally posted by SimperFi

Hey everybody thanks for stopping by my thread. I'd like to kick off an opinion thread about the general state of gaming and MMO's in particular. My opinion follows:


From my four years of mmo experience and over sixteen of general gaming experience (those four were spent as a gulid and mutli-clan leader), I have seen a good deal of games and MMO's in particular. And it's pretty obvious that Asia dominates the MMO world, not with quality or innovation but with sheer numbers. Those numbers being the following:

1. 100000000000's of the same rehashed MMO's built from the same cartoon engines
2. No monthly fee (this is supplemented by the fact that you can't do anything without item malls)

3. And of course they have a wonderful mix of decent adult gamers facing off against the degenerate retiries and thirteen year olds who have nothing better to do with AARP or mommy's credit card, than buy imaginary items in a fictional world and pick on those who dont


So now the important part : my questions, no my PLEA. Other than the pay to play big shots soon to be released (TOR), is there an MMO that can save us? I"m still a guild leader. We're coming from another game that isn't exactly cartoony but lacks vertually any content at all.

I've tried almost every MMO out there (honestly not an exaggeration) and I couldn't stay in for more than a week. After coming from Voyage Century after 3 years of gulid leading there and then going to the same game made by Germans rather than Asians (bounty bay), I've simply been worn out. I would love to see the following in ONE GAME:

1. NO CARTOONS (if I wanted pink hair I'd watch anime)

2. MORE CRAFTING (this has been overlooked by many games, let's put in some good engineering skills, SWG wasn't bad)

3. A story and quests that actually matter (not the most important but would be nice to see)

4. GUILDS THAT CAN DO THINGS - honest, what's the point of playing a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME if we can't group up and have it mean something? Like a uniform, a creed and logo, ground to take as our own, our own castle, etc

5. Mods who castrate 13 year olds that think picking on someone 40 levels lower is "hardcore". (big one)

6. A game that is NOT JUST A HACK N SLASH LEVEL GRINDER - Honestly, if I wanted to feel more like a man than I already do, I'd pumps steroids and go submit my application for UFC, I DON'T NEED OPEN PVP TO FEEL LIKE A MAN NOR SHOULD YOU PUT GOOD GAMERS THROUGH THE BULLSHIT OF SISSY ASS PEOPLE WITH NO LIVES THAT JUST LOVE TO PICK ON PEOPLE IN A VIRTUAL WORLD BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO COME FIND MY HOUSE AND TAKE ME ON FOR SIZE.


So for GODS SAKE, someone please tell me if there's an MMO out there that's worth my time as well as my guild's. Otherwise, I think we're all just leaving MMO"S and going to play over Xbox live. (Ghost Recon is the shit)

EVE Online

+ No cartoons
+ Most extensive crafting i've ever seen, including mining/research/invention/industrial/ and even more (i'm not a industrialist)
+ No real PvE questline (you have epic archs though) most of the story comes from alliance warfare and the control for sov space
+ Without a corp you're nothing, diplomatics/politics/alliances/wars/spies/infiltration, you can own space stations as corp, you can declare war on other corps, eveything stands or falls with the corp and her alliance
+ This game isn't really played by OMG OMG EPIX LEWTZ players, mostly because in EVE is unforgiving, hard and has a vertical learning curve
+ Well, EVE is 100% PvP, that means you can be in high sec 0.5+ but you're not 100% safe, you're just safer, when you're hauling expensive cargo there is a chance some piwate/thief scans your ship and tries to suicide gank your hauler for the lewtz
 

I really like EVE because of the mature setting, it's not an instant gratification game, so if you want have a quickfix it is definitly not your cup of tea, but if you are into drama, politics, war, crafting/trading and going for the long haul (and don't have an attention span of a 14 year old WoW player who's high on coffee) you could actually start to like it.

You can send me a private message if you would like a 21-day trial key.

Erik

You seem to be stuck in the F2P world, which is a filthy place full of low quality grinding games that in the end prove to never really be free.

Most P2P's aren't a whole lot better, at least in terms of the features you want in a game.

That said, the only game right now that has what you want is EVE. 

But EVE isn't for everyone, and I can't see a guild full of folks coming from Voyage Century making the transition.

Good quality for a smaller market (western market isnt that big, even without WoW et all), big feature list, innovation, current technology and no monthly fee?

While you are at it, I suggest you also demand lower-class priced Ferrari cars, and private jets for unemployed.

Champions Online, Mortal Online, maybe ToR are your bets. The rest is just normal MMORPGs.

Originally posted by SimperFi

1. NO CARTOONS (if I wanted pink hair I'd watch anime)

I don't know of any games that REQUIRE you to have pink hair, what difference does it make if someone else chooses to?  I agree that there are some very toony games out there that I really don't like the look of, I make it simple by just not playing those games.

2. MORE CRAFTING (this has been overlooked by many games, let's put in some good engineering skills, SWG wasn't bad)

I don't know about more crafting, perhaps better crafting.  I'd like to see crafting that allows characters to advance, not just make a buck.  The guy making stuff for everyone still has to pick up their sword and go out and kill stuff to get anywhere, which makes no sense whatsoever.

3. A story and quests that actually matter (not the most important but would be nice to see)

The only problem with that is when you have a playerbase of tens of thousands or more, the story can only be general and the quests can only be vague because lots of people have to perform them over and over and over.  One person performing one quest can never make a difference.

4. GUILDS THAT CAN DO THINGS - honest, what's the point of playing a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME if we can't group up and have it mean something? Like a uniform, a creed and logo, ground to take as our own, our own castle, etc

Places like Anarchy Online do this just fine now, to some extent, there are player-controlled cities and battlegrounds which can change hands in raids, etc.  It might be nice to see a uniform or a badge or something similar to identify various clans or guilds though, that's a good idea.

5. Mods who castrate 13 year olds that think picking on someone 40 levels lower is "hardcore". (big one)

I'll settle for mods who care about their job.  I'll settle for games that actually take a stand against the gold spammers and the rip-off artists and ban accounts for doing it.

6. A game that is NOT JUST A HACK N SLASH LEVEL GRINDER - Honestly, if I wanted to feel more like a man than I already do, I'd pumps steroids and go submit my application for UFC, I DON'T NEED OPEN PVP TO FEEL LIKE A MAN NOR SHOULD YOU PUT GOOD GAMERS THROUGH THE BULLSHIT OF SISSY ASS PEOPLE WITH NO LIVES THAT JUST LOVE TO PICK ON PEOPLE IN A VIRTUAL WORLD BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO COME FIND MY HOUSE AND TAKE ME ON FOR SIZE.

That would be my biggest thing.  I hate PvP, period.  I am sick and tired of doing the same grinding over and over and over to find gear or get XP.  When you can go into a quest knowing exactly what's coming because you've done it 500 times before, it's too much.

There's got to be a better way.

Question for you SimperFi.

Do you think that games with level grinds and the spacial difference in the abilities per levels can give you what you want?

Example: Alexander the Great moves his massive army against a walled city. From the walled city emerges 10 warriors. Alexander proclaims "this is it? This is what they defend their city with?" And so Alexander the Great orders his entire army to charge the 10 warriors, and after some minutes in battle he looks around and see his army decimated. From the smoke he sees his trusted general come forth, and asks "General, what has happened to my army?" The general replies "Shit Alex! They're all level 60!

And then Alexander must wonder what a group of level 60's are doing in this zone.

You can do the same for any aspect of game play. Trade skills, building player cities, caravans, whatever.

So I ask the question again, can level grind games give you any different experience? Can you quest your way through the game you want?

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Example: Alexander the Great moves his massive army against a walled city. From the walled city emerges 10 warriors. Alexander proclaims "this is it? This is what they defend their city with?" And so Alexander the Great orders his entire army to charge the 10 warriors, and after some minutes in battle he looks around and see his army decimated. From the smoke he sees his trusted general come forth, and asks "General, what has happened to my army?" The general replies "Shit Alex! They're all level 60!

 

This sir, made my day! I thank you.

Originally posted by roodbwoy

Originally posted by SimperFi

Hey everybody thanks for stopping by my thread. I'd like to kick off an opinion thread about the general state of gaming and MMO's in particular. My opinion follows:


From my four years of mmo experience and over sixteen of general gaming experience (those four were spent as a gulid and mutli-clan leader), I have seen a good deal of games and MMO's in particular. And it's pretty obvious that Asia dominates the MMO world, not with quality or innovation but with sheer numbers. Those numbers being the following:

1. 100000000000's of the same rehashed MMO's built from the same cartoon engines
2. No monthly fee (this is supplemented by the fact that you can't do anything without item malls)

3. And of course they have a wonderful mix of decent adult gamers facing off against the degenerate retiries and thirteen year olds who have nothing better to do with AARP or mommy's credit card, than buy imaginary items in a fictional world and pick on those who dont


So now the important part : my questions, no my PLEA. Other than the pay to play big shots soon to be released (TOR), is there an MMO that can save us? I"m still a guild leader. We're coming from another game that isn't exactly cartoony but lacks vertually any content at all.

I've tried almost every MMO out there (honestly not an exaggeration) and I couldn't stay in for more than a week. After coming from Voyage Century after 3 years of gulid leading there and then going to the same game made by Germans rather than Asians (bounty bay), I've simply been worn out. I would love to see the following in ONE GAME:

1. NO CARTOONS (if I wanted pink hair I'd watch anime)

2. MORE CRAFTING (this has been overlooked by many games, let's put in some good engineering skills, SWG wasn't bad)

3. A story and quests that actually matter (not the most important but would be nice to see)

4. GUILDS THAT CAN DO THINGS - honest, what's the point of playing a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME if we can't group up and have it mean something? Like a uniform, a creed and logo, ground to take as our own, our own castle, etc

5. Mods who castrate 13 year olds that think picking on someone 40 levels lower is "hardcore". (big one)

6. A game that is NOT JUST A HACK N SLASH LEVEL GRINDER - Honestly, if I wanted to feel more like a man than I already do, I'd pumps steroids and go submit my application for UFC, I DON'T NEED OPEN PVP TO FEEL LIKE A MAN NOR SHOULD YOU PUT GOOD GAMERS THROUGH THE BULLSHIT OF SISSY ASS PEOPLE WITH NO LIVES THAT JUST LOVE TO PICK ON PEOPLE IN A VIRTUAL WORLD BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO COME FIND MY HOUSE AND TAKE ME ON FOR SIZE.


So for GODS SAKE, someone please tell me if there's an MMO out there that's worth my time as well as my guild's. Otherwise, I think we're all just leaving MMO"S and going to play over Xbox live. (Ghost Recon is the shit)

 

EVE Online

+ No cartoons
+ Most extensive crafting i've ever seen, including mining/research/invention/industrial/ and even more (i'm not a industrialist)
+ No real PvE questline (you have epic archs though) most of the story comes from alliance warfare and the control for sov space
+ Without a corp you're nothing, diplomatics/politics/alliances/wars/spies/infiltration, you can own space stations as corp, you can declare war on other corps, eveything stands or falls with the corp and her alliance
+ This game isn't really played by OMG OMG EPIX LEWTZ players, mostly because in EVE is unforgiving, hard and has a vertical learning curve
+ Well, EVE is 100% PvP, that means you can be in high sec 0.5+ but you're not 100% safe, you're just safer, when you're hauling expensive cargo there is a chance some piwate/thief scans your ship and tries to suicide gank your hauler for the lewtz
 

I really like EVE because of the mature setting, it's not an instant gratification game, so if you want have a quickfix it is definitly not your cup of tea, but if you are into drama, politics, war, crafting/trading and going for the long haul (and don't have an attention span of a 14 year old WoW player who's high on coffee) you could actually start to like it.

You can send me a private message if you would like a 21-day trial key.

Erik

I have to agree EVE is the only game I can see that  gives a "Yes" answer to most of what you wanted. If you likes your game to be free.. you can pay the EvE subscription with ingame money, if you earn enough...
 

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Question for you SimperFi.

Do you think that games with level grinds and the spacial difference in the abilities per levels can give you what you want?

Example: Alexander the Great moves his massive army against a walled city. From the walled city emerges 10 warriors. Alexander proclaims "this is it? This is what they defend their city with?" And so Alexander the Great orders his entire army to charge the 10 warriors, and after some minutes in battle he looks around and see his army decimated. From the smoke he sees his trusted general come forth, and asks "General, what has happened to my army?" The general replies "Shit Alex! They're all level 60!

And then Alexander must wonder what a group of level 60's are doing in this zone.

You can do the same for any aspect of game play. Trade skills, building player cities, caravans, whatever.

So I ask the question again, can level grind games give you any different experience? Can you quest your way through the game you want?

Hahaha, that's outstanding. And no I don't think that makes a good game. I want to see a game where there are no level numbers. At least not physically. I want my character to be able to pick up most simple weapons on the battlefield and be able to use it (however poorly) against enemies who actually do BLEED. I don't want to have to count my HP and MANA points all day. If I get hit by a cyclops four times my size with an axe bigger than he is, how is my armor going to stop me from being injured? The sheer weight would crush me through the ground.

There's just a lot in most games that I've seen so many times over and over that it's just not worth it. Think about it, in most games, even though there are thousands of players,  there are no thousand or even hundred player battles (except EVE). But even if there were, I could hit a guy 20 times with an axe and his armor wouldn't even dent, or what about his leg I just chopped off? How is he walking around? How can I take 14 arrows and still move like a circus acrobat??

THAT'S what I want to see. No more gear or xp grinding. I want to see characters that bleed, sneeze, fart and even possibly die (though permadeath is another issue completely). And thank you all who have posted so far, it's great to flesh out these points.

And a side note: to those mentioning EVE, thank you, that's an exccelent suggestion, however I just recently left EVE as a the corp CEO of a successful group of gamers. A good group but I decided it was my time to take a break. I've actually been gulid leading for a decent amount of time in many games. Voyage Century was when I was younger for whoever mentioned that one.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I have to agree EVE is the only game I can see that  gives a "Yes" answer to most of what you wanted. If you likes your game to be free.. you can pay the EvE subscription with ingame money, if you earn enough...
 

Checked the prices last night, cheapest in my region was 400 Mill, which is affordable if you're running 6 R&D agents + playing the market and stuff. But word on the streets claim that the prices are going to rise to 1 bill....

But hey, EVE only costs 0.50 eurocents a day... and if you're from europe you can try to buy gametimecards from teh USA, with the current value of the dollar those cards are practicly free :-)

Well your post pretty much sums up why i started my own indi gaming company 3 years ago to try and change this trend. Given we are still 4-5 years away from the MMO (I prefer calling it persistent world) of our 5th Dimension universe, you might stick around our website to follow our progress.

Our first game is a card game based on strategy and which you won't have to mortage your house in order to be competitive. It's releasing on PC this summer, and on Xbox live arcade in 2010. We hope it will bring enough ressources to go to the next step, and fund our second project which will eventually lead to that persistent world along the lines of what you were looking for.

I invite you to stay tune with 5D Studios at: www.5dthegame.com

Until then, i hope you find something decent to keep your gaming craving at bay. I know myself that i just can't play what's on the market anymore so instead of whining, (not saying you do) i just took things in my hands with 20 other people, and we are poise to create games that reaches the level of meaningful game play we have never been able to find anywhere else.

Originally posted by SimperFi

 

Hahaha, that's outstanding. And no I don't think that makes a good game. I want to see a game where there are no level numbers. At least not physically. I want my character to be able to pick up most simple weapons on the battlefield and be able to use it (however poorly) against enemies who actually do BLEED. I don't want to have to count my HP and MANA points all day. If I get hit by a cyclops four times my size with an axe bigger than he is, how is my armor going to stop me from being injured? The sheer weight would crush me through the ground.

There's just a lot in most games that I've seen so many times over and over that it's just not worth it. Think about it, in most games, even though there are thousands of players,  there are no thousand or even hundred player battles (except EVE). But even if there were, I could hit a guy 20 times with an axe and his armor wouldn't even dent, or what about his leg I just chopped off? How is he walking around? How can I take 14 arrows and still move like a circus acrobat??

 

THAT'S what I want to see. No more gear or xp grinding. I want to see characters that bleed, sneeze, fart and even possibly die (though permadeath is another issue completely). And thank you all who have posted so far, it's great to flesh out these points.

 

 

And a side note: to those mentioning EVE, thank you, that's an exccelent suggestion, however I just recently left EVE as a the corp CEO of a successful group of gamers. A good group but I decided it was my time to take a break. I've actually been gulid leading for a decent amount of time in many games. Voyage Century was when I was younger for whoever mentioned that one.

I completely understand what you mean, but unfortunately MMO's like those don't exist. I blame the commercialising of MMORGP's to "MMO-Singleplayer Games with other people", the new generation don't like challenges, they want to quickly get a fix, loot some uber epic item of the pwnz0r0r and go to the townhall and showoff his e-peen. So that means that every encounter is dumbed down, no "law of physics" , no immersion, just quick repeatable quests to grind for that one item everybody has except you :-( it makes me a sad panda

Originally posted by SimperFi

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Question for you SimperFi.

Do you think that games with level grinds and the spacial difference in the abilities per levels can give you what you want?

Example: Alexander the Great moves his massive army against a walled city. From the walled city emerges 10 warriors. Alexander proclaims "this is it? This is what they defend their city with?" And so Alexander the Great orders his entire army to charge the 10 warriors, and after some minutes in battle he looks around and see his army decimated. From the smoke he sees his trusted general come forth, and asks "General, what has happened to my army?" The general replies "Shit Alex! They're all level 60!

And then Alexander must wonder what a group of level 60's are doing in this zone.

You can do the same for any aspect of game play. Trade skills, building player cities, caravans, whatever.

So I ask the question again, can level grind games give you any different experience? Can you quest your way through the game you want?

 

Hahaha, that's outstanding. And no I don't think that makes a good game. I want to see a game where there are no level numbers. At least not physically. I want my character to be able to pick up most simple weapons on the battlefield and be able to use it (however poorly) against enemies who actually do BLEED. I don't want to have to count my HP and MANA points all day. If I get hit by a cyclops four times my size with an axe bigger than he is, how is my armor going to stop me from being injured? The sheer weight would crush me through the ground.

There's just a lot in most games that I've seen so many times over and over that it's just not worth it. Think about it, in most games, even though there are thousands of players,  there are no thousand or even hundred player battles (except EVE). But even if there were, I could hit a guy 20 times with an axe and his armor wouldn't even dent, or what about his leg I just chopped off? How is he walking around? How can I take 14 arrows and still move like a circus acrobat??

 

THAT'S what I want to see. No more gear or xp grinding. I want to see characters that bleed, sneeze, fart and even possibly die (though permadeath is another issue completely). And thank you all who have posted so far, it's great to flesh out these points.

 

 

And a side note: to those mentioning EVE, thank you, that's an exccelent suggestion, however I just recently left EVE as a the corp CEO of a successful group of gamers. A good group but I decided it was my time to take a break. I've actually been gulid leading for a decent amount of time in many games. Voyage Century was when I was younger for whoever mentioned that one.

Good! Then let me ask you the next question.

Can a game with PvP work on the other end of the equation. Can such a game allow rampant PKing, strongarm tactics, and only the strong shall survive? Will the less than strong keep playing, and will the game survive?

And again, you can ask this same question about trade skills, city building, caravans, etc.

Let me make sure I read the OP correctly. You're sick and tired of MMOG's because they are all shallow games with no diversity and too much emphasis on fighting. So you're going to give up on MMOG's and play a shallow FPS game with no diversity and too much emphasis on fighting. Did I read that right?

To be serious, you're expecting a lot out of the genre. It sounds like you're approaching the genre as a lifestyle rather than a game. I used to lead guilds and spend all my time coordinating events, giving speeches at meetings, and all the drama-control that goes with being a leader. That was a long time ago. Now I approach MMOG's as games. I play them until they aren't fun, then move on, bringing as many friends with me as I can.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by SimperFi

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Question for you SimperFi.

Do you think that games with level grinds and the spacial difference in the abilities per levels can give you what you want?

Example: Alexander the Great moves his massive army against a walled city. From the walled city emerges 10 warriors. Alexander proclaims "this is it? This is what they defend their city with?" And so Alexander the Great orders his entire army to charge the 10 warriors, and after some minutes in battle he looks around and see his army decimated. From the smoke he sees his trusted general come forth, and asks "General, what has happened to my army?" The general replies "Shit Alex! They're all level 60!

And then Alexander must wonder what a group of level 60's are doing in this zone.

You can do the same for any aspect of game play. Trade skills, building player cities, caravans, whatever.

So I ask the question again, can level grind games give you any different experience? Can you quest your way through the game you want?

 

Hahaha, that's outstanding. And no I don't think that makes a good game. I want to see a game where there are no level numbers. At least not physically. I want my character to be able to pick up most simple weapons on the battlefield and be able to use it (however poorly) against enemies who actually do BLEED. I don't want to have to count my HP and MANA points all day. If I get hit by a cyclops four times my size with an axe bigger than he is, how is my armor going to stop me from being injured? The sheer weight would crush me through the ground.

There's just a lot in most games that I've seen so many times over and over that it's just not worth it. Think about it, in most games, even though there are thousands of players,  there are no thousand or even hundred player battles (except EVE). But even if there were, I could hit a guy 20 times with an axe and his armor wouldn't even dent, or what about his leg I just chopped off? How is he walking around? How can I take 14 arrows and still move like a circus acrobat??

 

THAT'S what I want to see. No more gear or xp grinding. I want to see characters that bleed, sneeze, fart and even possibly die (though permadeath is another issue completely). And thank you all who have posted so far, it's great to flesh out these points.

 

 

And a side note: to those mentioning EVE, thank you, that's an exccelent suggestion, however I just recently left EVE as a the corp CEO of a successful group of gamers. A good group but I decided it was my time to take a break. I've actually been gulid leading for a decent amount of time in many games. Voyage Century was when I was younger for whoever mentioned that one.

 

Good! Then let me ask you the next question.

Can a game with PvP work on the other end of the equation. Can such a game allow rampant PKing, strongarm tactics, and only the strong shall survive? Will the less than strong keep playing, and will the game survive?

And again, you can ask this same question about trade skills, city building, caravans, etc.

 Well a game that has PVP and can utilize physics and brains then yes it could probably work. I mean, think about it. Every guild has a different purpose. Maybe one is a business monopoly, and one is a gang. Well what about the business owners who are caught in the middle? Does he strike out on his own and not pay the dues owed to the monopoly, where joining would allow him a certain protection and muscle to protect his shop? Or does he pay the monopoly? Or does he even pay the gang and let them protect his shop on their turf?

Now imagine in that setting, every character can die, can bleed, get a disease, and so forth. Now every man is a non-renewable resource. And everyone must take into consideration that when there's a war in the streets it's going to matter. When that shop owner gets his face pounded in, or his hands broken, he isn't going to be able to craft those nice items. So profits go down.

Who says that any game that has good physics, good society and usage of brains needs to be non-violent? LETS JUST MAKE THAT VIOLENCE HAVE PURPOSE