Originally posted by dirtyjoe78

    Let me tell you why this post is exactly why this type of game fails, because this can be taken to a whole new level of jackassery and really i do not think that most people want to lose their custom chopper  that they worked hard to gather the mats for.  This type of environment quickly degrades into a let me know what bothers you so i can do it more for my personal entertainment.  How many times do you need this type of scenario rehashed to watch it take over by the people (me included) that enjoy messing with people just because i know it is going to rage you.  I am all for a unique crafting system, player housing and many of the other fantastic ideas in this thread.  But what a lof of people do not consider is that there is a group of people out there that will look for the ways to take advantage of every single thing you can think of just to rage you and entertain them. 

Now i am going to pick on SWG pre NGE why because i played it and was bored out of my mind, i question the sanity of people that loved to grind skill points to lvl your pistol skill or whatever skill you were grinding on so you can use that next blaster or grind the next level of skill to accomplish some other mundane task.  What is the difference between this and grinding a level so you can use the sword of 1000 truths??  What makes no direction better than direction...personal preference.  No matter what way you slice it any crafting system in a game is finite there is an end to the combinations of things that can be combined to create something else and a smaller list of things that can be created that are usefull to players.  Not to mention the amount of time and coding that would go into this part of the game.

Lets take some numbers and draw your own conclusions from it.

Cost to create WoW 80 million

Vanguard 30million ( accompanied by accusations that microsoft underfunded them)

Everquest 8 million

Implement all thie ideas you want in your dream MMORPG then attempt to figure a cost...now find investors that share your dream...now find coders that share your dream or at least dont suck at coding..now deliver.

Please explain to me why EVE works then. As you clearly understand the entire MMO market.

I am not saying I fully agree with Warsongs post, but I accept that there are more play styles out there than my own, and that with tens of millions of MMO gamers around the world that there IS a market for something other than WoWs linear themepark approach.

 And arent we all assuming that WoW is what everyone wants? I mean if you look at the free to play MMOs then Perfect World is more popular than WoW, so surely people DO want a more PvP orientated world? But of course, I bet you dismiss them because most of those players arent westerners, fact of the matter is, I dont give a damn who plays the MMO I want to play, I just want to see it made and I will happily have 100,000+ players in China if I cant have them in America. They still pay the same as us after all.

I always find if funny that a game that developer admitted was a collosal failure is always heralded as some pinnacle of game play.  SWG has never been a good game, PRE-CU, PRE-NGE, or whatever.  The developer is quoted as saying something along the lines of "we had the most valuable IP in the world and we couldn't attract more than X players."  It was Star Wars while the movies were still in the theatres and it still failed.

That's not to say that there weren't people who didn't like it.  People likes AC2 and it didn't go anywhere.  Based on this site, there obviously were.  Yet sales and numbers speak.  At the time they cut the game over they saw the popularity of WoW and realized how much they had missed the ball.  They catered to the old school computer gamer, not the new age MMO player.  

As for the topic itself.  I have no problem with niche games, and there are plenty of spaces that you can make one.

Sandbox - Niche
Full PvP - Niche
Hardcore Raiding - Niche
Lots of Grind - Niche

Basically, if you create a game that gives people a way to flash their E-Peen over a majority of the world, then you have just made a niche game.  Why?  Well it seems that a large portion of the MMO playing world doesn't like having people kick sand in their face.  They want to see the same things, do the same things, and want it in a short period of time.  Fair or not, that's mainstream.

Someone said it best earlier, if the average player is going to play a game, they want to be the hero, not a lackey.  They are not viewing this as a sport.  They want to play, see everything, and do everything with a minimal of fuss.  

Should their be games that cater to the niches?  Sure, if it makes sense.  I still want my full PvP Car Wars game made.  I am realistic enough to know that it'd be a niche game though.  Don't expect to see many AAA titles that are built off of those markets.  As for Bioware, I imagine that it will roll in cash and realize the dream that SWG was trying to achieve.  A massively popular world in the Star Wars universe that people want to play, and to keep coming back too.

Originally posted by markyturnip

What's going on?

I remain convinced this amazing genuine living breathing MMO is possible. iS more than just a pipe dream. Yet why are we faced with such a staggering string of pathetic duds?

Is it simply that today's networking technology can't cope? Or is it that the market won't support such a large endeavour? Or is there a fundamental lack of ambition?

I would say that it is a combination of money and the right devs that are missing here.

First a game like this have never been done before. It will cost a lot and you will have to find enough investors to get the cash for it. Many devs have a good idea but just don't have the budget of making the game of their dreams, like Arenanet. Guildwars was made on a very low budget and therefor they couldn't make a game like that. And there are quite a few others with the same problem.

Then some company do have the right budget but not the right people. You both need a brilliant head dev and some great visionarys to pull the game off.

Maybe one of the upcoming games will be what we are waiting for, like World of darkness online, Guildwars 2, Copernicus or TOR.

My best bet is still GW2. In GW2 the monster will spawn at the logical places, like orcs will spawn in the orc village and then walk to their designated area. There will be many server wide events and quests that will influence the whole server, they have mentioned a quest to stop a dragon from destroying a bridge. If the players there fail the bridge will be out until some people reapaired it. Just a few of the features, it will also include a totaly new way of loading in zones (yes, even in a zoneless MMO you load in zones, Strain already did this for Wow but say that he solved it a lot better now).

Originally posted by bstripp

I always find if funny that a game that developer admitted was a collosal failure is always heralded as some pinnacle of game play.  SWG has never been a good game, PRE-CU, PRE-NGE, or whatever.  The developer is quoted as saying something along the lines of "we had the most valuable IP in the world and we couldn't attract more than X players."  It was Star Wars while the movies were still in the theatres and it still failed.

That's not to say that there weren't people who didn't like it.  People likes AC2 and it didn't go anywhere.  Based on this site, there obviously were.  Yet sales and numbers speak.  At the time they cut the game over they saw the popularity of WoW and realized how much they had missed the ball.  They catered to the old school computer gamer, not the new age MMO player.  

As for the topic itself.  I have no problem with niche games, and there are plenty of spaces that you can make one.

Sandbox - Niche
Full PvP - Niche
Hardcore Raiding - Niche
Lots of Grind - Niche

Basically, if you create a game that gives people a way to flash their E-Peen over a majority of the world, then you have just made a niche game.  Why?  Well it seems that a large portion of the MMO playing world doesn't like having people kick sand in their face.  They want to see the same things, do the same things, and want it in a short period of time.  Fair or not, that's mainstream.

Someone said it best earlier, if the average player is going to play a game, they want to be the hero, not a lackey.  They are not viewing this as a sport.  They want to play, see everything, and do everything with a minimal of fuss.  

Should their be games that cater to the niches?  Sure, if it makes sense.  I still want my full PvP Car Wars game made.  I am realistic enough to know that it'd be a niche game though.  Don't expect to see many AAA titles that are built off of those markets.  As for Bioware, I imagine that it will roll in cash and realize the dream that SWG was trying to achieve.  A massively popular world in the Star Wars universe that people want to play, and to keep coming back too.

Actually I think it is more like this: Boring game - Niche.

Wow do have a lot of grind and still is the most mainstream MMO out there (don't say that any game with "Go kill X mobs" isn't a grind).

Problem with most MMOs is that they ain't fun enough, the devs need to think about all parts of the games and make them fun. PvP, PvE, RAID, sieges... It is not the point here.

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Those are niche. How many people play Diablo. How many play Eve & Rhyzom & Metaverse? 

 

Niche is fine if it can make you a profit, which is all that matters. EVE for example has over 100,000 subscribers, that is plenty to make a profit provided you didn't spend too much on development.

It is people like you who think you must have more players than everyone else who are preventing non-linear non-themepark MMOs from being made by competent companies.

 

And it is a problem because?

 

Because not everyone wants to play WoW.

Sure. But no one says the market has to satisfy every last customers. Eve does exist to serve this niche market. Free market works.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Those are niche. How many people play Diablo. How many play Eve & Rhyzom & Metaverse? 

 

Niche is fine if it can make you a profit, which is all that matters. EVE for example has over 100,000 subscribers, that is plenty to make a profit provided you didn't spend too much on development.

It is people like you who think you must have more players than everyone else who are preventing non-linear non-themepark MMOs from being made by competent companies.

 

And it is a problem because?

 

Because not everyone wants to play WoW.

 

Sure. But no one says the market has to satisfy every last customers. Eve does exist to serve this niche market. Free market works.

You're right, no one says the market has to satisfy every last customers, but it is business and if there is a chance of making money then sooner or later people will do it.

Cause lets face it, money makes the world go around.

Originally posted by Draccan

Originally posted by bobfish

Its not tech cost, whilst they hinder smaller companies from exploring new things, the issue is the market. If the market would support these new things then the bigger companies would spend the money needed.

Hero Engine isn't sufficiently expensive that a large company can't make an MMO to do these things and aim for a return on 100,000 subs a year.

It is just that none of the large companies are interested in doing something unproven, therefore it is the market or rather the people who believe they know the market that is holding it all back.

 

I agree. Big studios think they can get more subscriptions by taking the short cut and making games the EQ/WoW way. They create a simple 3d world, invent a back story or buy an IP, throw in a lot of kill X quests and bring Y there quests, add some instances in form of minigames and raids, some itemization, the usual powers - levels - classes - progression system. And then all hope that gamers will swoon for their flashy new game. And all of them are looking at WoW's succes.

Big companies believe in linear, hold-your-hand, dumbed down games.. Bioware admits to this. Bioware's CEO loves WOW. They all do.

SWG had a lot of game breaking bugs, but it was the most ambitious mmo ever produced. They took it as a matter of fact to include housing, non-combat classes, in-depth crafting, expansive moveable ressource nodes, a large open worlds to explore... So despite all its failures it was very ambitious.

I think the next company to make a polished and (relatively) bug-free version of SWG could have a minor succes on its hands. Like EVE numbers. The market is there. Players do want it.

I also think the next WoW will not look like WoW (or EQ or Lotro or WAR or AoC) at all.. the next big succes will be something new and fresh.

Players want immersion and creating their own heroes and their own stories. A great mmo is a game where you can do all these things. Bioware seem to think they need to hold your hand (they even say it out loud). Mythic (WAR) seem to think you just need the usual mmo routines with some rvr and then the game won't be hollow and boring.

Development of mmos are expensive, but what gaming companies forget is that if they want to immerse players long enough to get that subscription fee for months - there must be variations to the gameplay. No matter how cool the combat system is (or isn't) - no matter how many stories BIOWARE will direct you through - no matter how many raid dungeons they create - no matter how many quests they add - if it feels old - feels repetitive, then it will not hold players interest for long..

 

 

Spot on!

I'm also convinced that the concept of SWG (the game itself had too many bugs and was unfinished when released) holds the future. Add to that user influence on the world around him/her (not a persistant world, but a "changing" world) and you have a new generation MMO with elements that have not been seen before.

I'm afraid however, just like others stated, that the industry is looking for guaranteed successes. Something new and refreshing is no guarantee to anything. You can't blame them. We are often talking about 100+ million dollar projects for some of the more advanced MMO development tracks. I doubt many people in the world feel eager to risk that much money over a new concept that could potentially fail completely. See, the day I have that kind of money I'll definately start this "ideal" MMO, but until then, I'm also waiting for that daring company that will start this type of MMO.

Two things come to mind after reading the OPs post.

1. After WOW's great success, it prompted a huge influx of "quickie" MMOs trying to ride the tide and make some cash based upon the genre's sudden popularity.

2. For many of us who played WOW and enjoyed it for a long time, we are having trouble finding a suitable replacement to wine and dine us like we felt when we first grew attached to the game. Yes, there are not a few who tried it and hated it, but a huge chunk of us RPG types really found ourselves digging it. 

Like someone eluded to in an earlier post, something is new but once. It is very hard to recapture lost freshness as much as we may try. It will really take something revolutionary to recreate that sense of feeling. I don't think that all the other games are bad. Sure, there are many bad ones, but as for myself, playing WOW for 3+years really ruined me as far as enjoying the status quo.

In the meantime, I am having an OK time playing Runes of Magic, which is the best free MMO I've found IMHO, and looking forward hoping TOR turns out to be "the one."

I think it's a combination of devs being scared to do something different, and technology not being where it needs to be. 

Development of mmos are expensive, but what gaming companies forget is that if they want to immerse players long enough to get that subscription fee for months - there must be variations to the gameplay. No matter how cool the combat system is (or isn't) - no matter how many stories BIOWARE will direct you through - no matter how many raid dungeons they create - no matter how many quests they add - if it feels old - feels repetitive, then it will not hold players interest for long..

How long do they need to hold the players' interests? Some here play WOW for years. I have been on it for ~18 months. I played EQ for 1 year. Those are very very long time for a game.

In fact, if you look at the economic, i have spend (thus far) around ~$300 (WOW+BC+ WOTLK + 18 months of subscription) on WOW. I don't think i am atypical.

If TOR can get 500k player to spend a year on the game (12 x 15 = $180 + box game ~ $220), they get $110M. That is quite enough to develop the game, and run the game for a while. If they get to 1M paying customers (which is not unlikely and only less than 1/10 the size of WOW), that would be $220M.

So while sure, you want to capture your customers for a long time, it is not crucial to hook people for more than 1 year or so.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by markyturnip

 

 

There have been many compelling fictional representations of what the great MMOs of the future could be - you know, large non-instanced contiguous worlds where people hang out and form vibrant communities, build cities and keeps, wage long multi-faceted campaigns against their opponents; where pvp happens all over the place, sometimes in huge numbers, sometimes in small epic struggles; where people craft fun stuff, unearth hidden secrets, explore the paths less trodden; where there is a sense of adventure rather than grind, of epic size yet tight communities, personal progression, yet realm-wide struggles; where genuine relationships are formed, creativity is encouraged etc etc

WoW was a passing first approximation, and was - whatever the haters say - the closest thing yet to a great MMORPG, but obviously falls below this standard on many level (no player housing! no guild halls! no real world city sieges! etc); and a slew of recent games have gone shockingly backwards in terms of the quality of product on offer (WAR, AOC - games far less accomplished than a game made four years before them).

What's going on?

I remain convinced this amazing genuine living breathing MMO is possible. iS more than just a pipe dream. Yet why are we faced with such a staggering string of pathetic duds?

Is it simply that today's networking technology can't cope? Or is it that the market won't support such a large endeavour? Or is there a fundamental lack of ambition?

I would love to hear opinions from people who have a clear sense of the industry right now. Wgy are we gaced with such an endless procession of turkeys?

 

I think you're asking for a lot of opposites. Tight knit community, epic size world, and able to explore paths less trodden.

Decide whether you want a tight knit community, or an epic size world with paths less trodden that feels empty. 

If you know how to put both in the same game, I'd certainly like to hear your idea.

My opinion is that it IS the technology, speciificallly the COST of the technology. When the cost comes down you'll see some different stuff, until then probably not.

This was already accomplished in Star Wars Galaxies.  The planets were huge, and people formed their own player crafted and created cities all over the game world.  Some were close to hubs, some were out in the middle of nowhere.  SWG was also the only game I have played were there was a sense of 'wilderness'.  You could literraly build a house in the far reaches of one of the planets, and NEVER run into anyone out there.  It was freaking huge, and it was adventurous.

I used to keep a house in my guild's player city, and a "hunting cabin" or two complete with furnishings and supplies out in the woods on other planets.  It was seriously cool. The maps were so big that doing this served a purpose too.  You didn't want to have to travel all the way back to a hub and jump planets just to get some meds or buff, or take shelter. it wasn't just fluff.

People will naturally come together in tight communities when there is a vast land around them.  They have to out of necessity for trade, cutting down on travel, etc. Some people will venture out and be loaners, and that's cool too.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

I think it's a combination of devs being scared to do something different, and technology not being where it needs to be. 

What are you talling about? There are tons of MMO being developed now that is different.

TOR is the prime example, just that it is not different and move to where some of the sandbox/hardcore crowd wants. Focusing on story *is* different. Making it more SP like *is* different.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by bobfish

I have the money, now show me hard proof that your vision of an MMO will work.

I want working examples already in the market place before I will give you $18 million, cause I'm not going to give you that money unless I know I will get it back.

 

I think that's the major issue right there.

Which is why indy game devs who don't have to answer to corporate suits will be the savior of the genre.  We may not get the same quality of graphics as we would in a AAA title, but I am ok with that if the gameplay rocks.  Hell, one of the best FPS games I ever played online was the ugliest.  Good old Tribes. No other FPS game that has come out since can top that gameplay.  Too bad they dumbed that game down after Tribes 2 and killed the franchise.  Again, they were catering to "the masses" and ended up losing what made the game special and popular.

Just wait till virtual reality becomes what we've imagined. When those technologies such as controlling operations with your mind become mainstream, games will work their way towards such immersion. And, when virtual characters can be interacted with like another player online, such a dream will no longer be distant...

Yes, but like it or not (and I don't since I don't play it) WoW is what the people want.  That arguement is over and settled by several million people and dollars speaking very loudly and clearly.

Now as a dev you have to decide:

"Do I try to copy WoW and catch people who already like that style of game after they get bored of it?"
or
"Do I make something that caters to the small portion of players that don't seem to want WoW?"

Keep in mind that you are having to make a pitch to someone who is going to invest in your company.  I can't imagine that investing in indie MMOs is all that good of an investment.  Seems to be very high risk and at the end you are as likely to get Darkfall as you are Eve.  So when we wonder why we get poor copies of WoW, well that's what people are putting money forward on.  However, there has yet to be a studio that had Blizzards resources and reputation to do it right.

Hopefully there will be some developers that are confident in making smaller games on a smaller budget.  However, whether those will ultimately satisfy us is another question altogether.  Sure you can make something innovative, but without the staff and resources of a AAA title, your content will suffer.  There is no getting around that, and content is what drives your game.  I just know that if I had 10 million dollars to invest, an indie MMO is not where I would be looking for a quality investment.

So I am lumping my vote on the market as being one of main determinants as to why we don't have better MMOs at the moment.

Originally posted by bstripp

Yes, but like it or not (and I don't since I don't play it) WoW is what the people want.  That arguement is over and settled by several million people and dollars speaking very loudly and clearly.

Now as a dev you have to decide:

"Do I try to copy WoW and catch people who already like that style of game after they get bored of it?"
or
"Do I make something that caters to the small portion of players that don't seem to want WoW?"

Keep in mind that you are having to make a pitch to someone who is going to invest in your company.  I can't imagine that investing in indie MMOs is all that good of an investment.  Seems to be very high risk and at the end you are as likely to get Darkfall as you are Eve.  So when we wonder why we get poor copies of WoW, well that's what people are putting money forward on.  However, there has yet to be a studio that had Blizzards resources and reputation to do it right.

Hopefully there will be some developers that are confident in making smaller games on a smaller budget.  However, whether those will ultimately satisfy us is another question altogether.  Sure you can make something innovative, but without the staff and resources of a AAA title, your content will suffer.  There is no getting around that, and content is what drives your game.  I just know that if I had 10 million dollars to invest, an indie MMO is not where I would be looking for a quality investment.

So I am lumping my vote on the market as being one of main determinants as to why we don't have better MMOs at the moment.

WoW has the people that want WoW.  There are other markets out there.  For evidence, learn about EVE and its continued success and growth.

Also, the vast majorty of people playing WoW today have never played any other type of MMO, so to assume that ALL WoW players will only want more WoW-like games is ludicrous.  After we have a couple decent open-ended gamed for people to try, we will see what those people want.  A percentage of them will like sandboxes just as I did. 

Sure the majority will want solo-friendly hand holders like WoW, but the niche markets will grow as well. Even a game with a good solid 100,000 - 300.000 subs can make someone a lot of money.  These game devs that think they are going to land 10 million users like WoW did are insane.  WoW was an anomaly; right place, right time, right hardware requirements.

Originally posted by pur3.5ync

Just wait till virtual reality becomes what we've imagined. When those technologies such as controlling operations with your mind become mainstream, games will work their way towards such immersion. And, when virtual characters can be interacted with like another player online, such a dream will no longer be distant...

I've been following VR tech for like 20 years.  It's gone almost nowhere in terms of entertainment use.  We'll see in 10-20 years, but don't expect anything soon.

Originally posted by pur3.5ync

Just wait till virtual reality becomes what we've imagined. When those technologies such as controlling operations with your mind become mainstream, games will work their way towards such immersion. And, when virtual characters can be interacted with like another player online, such a dream will no longer be distant...

...and people think game addiction is a problem now=)  Who needs to go to the bathroom when I just went virtually, didn't I...didn't I?  Did I just eat real food or was it virtual?  You unhook 12 hrs later to find yourself in bed covered in your own filth.  Oh it will be joyous=)  Who needs real life when you can play Eve 2030.  "I can fly ships with my mind Mommy and make 1 million ISK a minute."

Don't be so excited.  Some people here will never leave the house ever again, considering how serious they take MMOs now.

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by Warsong

Originally posted by andmiller 

I agree with your posts, but put budgets aside for a minute, as often when developers are sitting down to budget a game, they have no idea what the true final tally will be.  I'm just pointing out that it is a major problem for developers, who may be risking their company on the direction they go with an MMO.  It just makes more sense in the grand scheme of things to invest their resources to court the largest, most accessible camp of MMO gamers, rather then make a niche game and hope to attract splinters of the million other "camps" on the non-WoW side.......

 

 

With thinking like this the world would never see any diversity in life, we would all be driving the same cars, the same colors, etc.

Would be pretty drab if at some point (when the VW bug was most common) that everyone started thinking this way...everyone would be driving a red VW bug and nothing else...would we all still be using commadore 64's?

Actually it makes very little sense to pick one thing or one idea and then become stagnant. Creative diversity drives human advancments.

 

It has nothing to do with "thinking" or creativity in any way, it has to do with economics.  The discussion was about the huge disparity between the camp of gamers who prefer one play style, to the fractured camp that has 50 different play styles they want implemented.  The discussion was about developers and where they are going to invest their money, a target demographic where they have a pretty good idea of what they want, or jump in blindly and hope to cater to a few niche groups and suck more of them in.

You miss the point of the post entirely, obviously.  Comparing advances in technology, like the Commodore to the PC doesn't even make sense.

As this thread and many others indicate is that a good project lead who does his/her homework can see that there is no jumping blind...there are clearly many people not wanting to play a WoW game. Some people want more or different and there are and will be companies who target other interests.

This thread is about targeting "other" interests and not a WoW comparison.

Mythic has even stated for a MMO to make a profit all you need is around 50k subs.(DAoC..still going)  there are still many MMO's running with extremely low numbers of subs...why?? because they are making money.  Now if you get someone who comes along and invests $100 mill and are not targeting the "main stream" then this is where the expression comes from "A fool and his money are soon parted". Delivering a profiting MMO requires some smarts and drive and truthfully the ambition will determine whether the cost to produce one will be one price tag or another.

Originally posted by Warsong

 

As this thread and many others indicate is that a good project lead who does his/her homework can see that there is no jumping blind...there are clearly many people not wanting to play a WoW game.

Silius, aka Salim Grant the lead developer of Vanguard is perfect example of a poor lead. He jumped around like a frog and ended up ruining a once cool game.