Originally posted by flydowntome

 I find it incredible that you'd cover this under the aspect of roleplaying-Gor essentially is just fetish fuel getting off on the subjugation of women based on books that are worse than L. Ron Hubbard. It's also a "lifestyle" so you can't even claim the roleplay canard, adherents do it in real life as much as possible.

If anything Gor needs to be ridiculed and marginalized in Second Life, because it contributes to a bad perception that all it is is deviant sex and linden dollars.

Again some people will always carry anything thing to far. I am RPing an Outlaw Warrior; I do not own anyone and never will. I am RPing there because I like the PvP and the RP, which as a 16 year Vet of MMORPGs I have only found together in one other game (UO). I do not take leave with the camp girls and I am for sure not the only one that is there for the RP-PvP aspect of the game play. I am now working on another article in the series based in another format (Starwars RP) and I may RP there as well, and again only for the story based PvP.

Ah well, I guess it's inevitable that extremism will ultimately spawn opposite extremists.

If you've RP'ed before, you know what to do in situations you don't like. That goes for any setting. If you haven't RPed before, I should think most people know how to put others on their ignore list seeing as it's used pretty much every where on the net.

Gor is just an adult setting. If you're not mature enough - sure enough of yourself - to explore an adult setting, go RP in another setting. There're tons of them on the net and in SL.

I assume the author of the article thought he was writing for an adult audience. I guess that's his major mistake.

Originally posted by Bree'ah

Ah well, I guess it's inevitable that extremism will ultimately spawn opposite extremists.

If you've RP'ed before, you know what to do in situations you don't like. That goes for any setting. If you haven't RPed before, I should think most people know how to put others on their ignore list seeing as it's used pretty much every where on the net.

Gor is just an adult setting. If you're not mature enough - sure enough of yourself - to explore an adult setting, go RP in another setting. There're tons of them on the net and in SL.

I assume the author of the article thought he was writing for an adult audience. I guess that's his major mistake.

Here Here, finally someone who is an adult, and who knows the difference between rp in a pixel world and these who are bitching about cults, and rl... this is a game, if people choose to take things to real life, then that is their choice.  If someone is trying to control you in a "game" there are several recourses, there are mute buttons, there are reporting for harrassment, and then there is the all mighty exit button and then wow your back to your real life.  if people arent strong enough to use those methods then they arent stable enough to be in an mmorpg such as Second Life where all types of life happens... Second Life not only offers gor, they offer witchcraft, they offer buddaism, they offer christianity, they offer mafia (serious mafia) roleplaying, they offer sex on almost every sim there is in SL not just the Gor sims, have you looked under nightclubs, or clubs in general? 95% of the game consists of some type of sex so to single out Gor, as the antichrist is rediculous.

I think people need to get back to recognizing the difference when your a pixel and when your physically driving to work and controling your own destiny.  Remember SL is for adults, minors have their own place to play, and if your an adult, you have choices, not everyone may agree with them but their choices none the less.

now lets look forward to a wonderful writers next story on Roleplaying In Second Life and give this a rest. another words Grow UP.

Originally posted by smoothette

Second Life not only offers gor, they offer witchcraft, they offer buddaism, they offer christianity, they offer mafia (serious mafia) roleplaying, they offer sex on almost every sim there is in SL not just the Gor sims, have you looked under nightclubs, or clubs in general? 95% of the game consists of some type of sex so to single out Gor, as the antichrist is rediculous.

With all respect, you are just wrong.  I came to Second Life to participate in nonprofit activism in SL, and spent a full year and a half from late 2005 to 2007 never going to a nightclub or knowing a bit about the sex scene in SL.  If you think 95% of SL is about sex, it just speaks to what company you keep.

I attend lectures from Harvard professors and other experts in various fields.  I was commissioned to create a piece of art for the opening of the International Justice Sim, along with my partner, on a grant from the MacArthur Foundation.  I have gone to classical piano recitals, operatic concerts, ballets, Shakespeare plays, poetry slams, live music of whatever genre you enjoy (including jazz groups where the jamming musicians were on separate continents in real life!).  I have participated in some amazing communities of writers, activists, musicians, scholars, medical researchers, academics -- and funny thing, we were a bit too busy doing interesting things that weren't sex.

So, 95% of SL isn't about sex -- but there is so much going on in SL, you can certainly make sure that 95% of your experience is around sex and related stuff -- or that 100% of your experience avoids it.

Saying 95% of SL is about sex is a bit like these people who say that 95% of the web is porn.  It says more about what the person finds attractive or disgusting personally than it has to do with the balance of material available.

I play LOTRO for my MMO fix, as I've never found the games-within-games in SL any good.  They're scripted on top of a balky game engine that's designed to render on the fly, since SL is not based on a persistent world.  Anyone who's used to combat in a standard gaming environment is going to find the gaming mechanics and performance awful.

That said, I often aggravate both my gamer and non-gamer friends in SL by claiming that SL is the *only* pure roleplaying game on the net, since even as a person who is generally there to interact with people who know who I am and what my name and resume is in real life -- because it's relevant to what I do there -- the stylization and subcultures of interaction, the abstraction of the avatar, force one to roleplay even if one is roleplaying oneself.  There's no avoiding it.  It's hard to portray personality in a space where you have text, perhaps voice, but very little flexibility in terms of facial expression or even emotes.

SL is an 18-and-over environment (in theory, although like most of online life, a credit card and a lie will get you in at whatever age), and a "mature" game.  But SL, more than a game, is a user-authored sandbox game where each "sim" (island or region, zone) is created by the owner of that land.  If that owner is the City of Boston, Harvard's Berkman Center, or an addiction therapy center in E. St. Louis, not only is there no sex involved, but there are whole swaths of SL where sex isn't even allowed to be talked about (there are areas rated PG [really more like G], mature, and adult -- and only the adult sims are allowed to harbor sexual activities).

Our club is on a mature sim, but only so we can *talk* about controversial topics (sex, drugs,...) without violating our landlord's agreement with Linden Lab. 

Yrs,

Shava

This is quite possibly the most disgusting thing I've read about on this website. You people need help.

Originally posted by shava

Here is a fairly diverse discussion of the concept of rape which is central to Gor RP.  If you don't feel comfortable with the idea that by entering a Gor RP area you are in an open PvP rape scene, you simply shouldn't participate, unless you are quite sure of your bearings. 

Essentially, that's what you are buying into, is PvP sex with defined dominants and submissives (yes, there are female dominants, but they are a small minority, and yes there are free women -- but overwhelmingly this is about male avatars exerting forcible sexual dominance over female avatars).

Just remember, that X in the upper right of your window (on Windows) protects you from rape, ultimately, if you have enough sense to bail on the experience. 

Again, this is not the first RP community I would have highlighted in SL.  WTF.

 

Shava

If you came to Second Life for Non profit activism, and do not associate with "the crowd im speaking of" what gives you the right to say that this is a discussion of rape? remember you do not go to those areas so you would have no first hand knowledge of the other aspects of roleplay such as mafia,  most mafia members either own or work at clubs and most clubs involve some type of sex even in "pg" areas its just donemore descreatly.  If you go to a christian church in Second Life churches surmons most of them talk about the evils of online sex and how it breaks up marriages. If you are wiccan as i am when you go with your coven to celebrate the solice's you are naked. some deem the naked body as sex, but its only part of a ritual no sex involved, but it is taken out of context.
 

Type in Church in the search window, you come accross romantic open air balloon rides, the house of kobejitsu which is vampire/goth (and we know sex is involved there alot of the time) we come accross cark prince gothic club.  Type in Malls in search u come up with Katmandu which offeres romantic dating, then Isle of Lesbians,  and chicagoland dance club. You type in babies you fine a maternity clinic and a sex room for couples to make those babys!, You type in Free to find the Free clothing and hair styles for anoob to get started and you run into Neva Naughty menu furniture and free sex orgy room, Dance Island, Free sex land, Bondage ranch BSDM Play and chat, and Mony's free sex nude beach.

You type in Jewelry you come up with Franks place romantic dancing, sun club for raves cuddles and romance, You type in Shoes and come up with boots, sexy clothes, Phat Cat's jazz club for romancing, sexy land and purely wicked plaza.If you type in Animations in the places search and hit enter the first thing to pop up os Neva Naughty Menu furniture and free sex orgy room and animations are for AO"s, but lets go further, tyep in AO animations, you get Red Queen then Cybernetic skins and third on the list Gorean Animations..now lets type in Clothes, Once again first place is 4 fun design with pictures of naked women and men, followed by infernal villa roleplay island all about vampire/lycan/elfs/midevil rp/ and once again gor and remember that search is under CLOTHES! type in hair and once again you have the 4 fun designs which is naked bodies in the picture, and infernal villa roleplay island and sexy land and webcam voice escort strip club all within the first 7 listings under HAIR.

So as i stated you cant even go shopping without running into some type of sex, sex thats offered, sex in the photos, sex in the names of places because sex sells and  unless you search and search  and spend all your time reading every write up to avoid it and i dont know about you but i donthave that kind of time, so yes i run into alot of sexual situations just shpping for hair, clothing and AO animations which are 3 main staples of Second life unless you want to look like a noob forever. so maybe you should do a little more research before saying how wrong things are.

Originally posted by cerebrix

 those gor people are more batshit crazy than a hipster on an 8 ball

sometimes something is worth saying twice

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Originally posted by smoothette

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Originally posted by shava

Here is a fairly diverse discussion of the concept of rape which is central to Gor RP.  If you don't feel comfortable with the idea that by entering a Gor RP area you are in an open PvP rape scene, you simply shouldn't participate, unless you are quite sure of your bearings. 
Essentially, that's what you are buying into, is PvP sex with defined dominants and submissives (yes, there are female dominants, but they are a small minority, and yes there are free women -- but overwhelmingly this is about male avatars exerting forcible sexual dominance over female avatars).
Just remember, that X in the upper right of your window (on Windows) protects you from rape, ultimately, if you have enough sense to bail on the experience. 
Again, this is not the first RP community I would have highlighted in SL.  WTF.
 
Shava

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If you came to Second Life for Non profit activism, and do not associate with "the crowd im speaking of" what gives you the right to say that this is a discussion of rape?

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First, if you actually *read* before you hit quote-reply, you'd have seen that for the first eighteen months of my Second Life I didn't go outside a smaller community. But I've been in SL for 3.5 years now, and the last couple of years, my experience has been considerably broader, because those years I've been working in journalism and entertainment.

Then, if you clicked through that link, you would find it a discussion BY THE GOR COMMUNITY in SL of the concept of rape in their own culture, and they are using the word. Really, I just ask that you read before you hit the button.

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remember you do not go to those areas so you would have no first hand knowledge of the other aspects of roleplay such as mafia,  most mafia members either own or work at clubs and most clubs involve some type of sex even in "pg" areas its just donemore descreatly. 

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Actually, having covered a lot of the banking/investment community and the gambling community for in-world media, I'm very familiar with the Mafia RP. I've also done performances for their clubs and sim openings and private parties, as well as attended two weddings in that community (both involving the same guy, admittedly! :)

And in fact, good ol' fashion "cybering" in IMs without money being exchanged can happen in any sim at all -- but public escort services and sex bed farms/skybox rentals are not on PG sims. I'll also note that PG sims are in the minority, more so with the division of PG/M/A sims over the old PG/M sim ratings. So of course there are a lot of sims where sex happens, but there are sims where it just. doesn't. happen. At least not according to the local rules of the sim owners, but if you enjoy sex as griefing, whatever.

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If you go to a christian church in Second Life churches surmons most of them talk about the evils of online sex and how it breaks up marriages. If you are wiccan as i am when you go with your coven to celebrate the solice's you are naked. some deem the naked body as sex, but its only part of a ritual no sex involved, but it is taken out of context.

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And, I go to both church (although, UU, which you may or may not consider Christian, and which doesn't condemn online sex in sermons), and pagan circles (Season's Altar is a lovely sim, and IRL I'm a co-founder of CUUPs if you know that organization) in SL upon occasion.

As a sometime naturist, I'd actually take personal exception that the naked body is about sex. The naked body is about not wearing clothes, to me. Otherwise, it would be very uncomfortable to be naked in mixed age groups, for example, for me. But isn't that outside the scope of what we're talking about?
 

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Type in Church in the search window, you come accross ...
So as i stated you cant even go shopping without running into some type of sex, sex thats offered, sex in the photos, sex in the names of places because sex sells and  unless you search and search  and spend all your time reading every write up to avoid it and i dont know about you but i donthave that kind of time, so yes i run into alot of sexual situations just shpping for hair, clothing and AO animations which are 3 main staples of Second life unless you want to look like a noob forever. so maybe you should do a little more research before saying how wrong things are.

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Well, I don't know about how long you've been in SL, but in 2005, search essentially didn't exist. When I joined SL, they were still charging you money per prim created. There were about 65,000 registrations (mains and alts), and I believe that today that number is over 10,000,000, with more than 65,000 logged in at any one time, on average. Second Life was very different then. Perhaps you should do a little more careful reading of my post, and a little research yourself.

So, yes, I have friends in the Gor RP community, some of which had the dubious pleasure of being outed involuntarily with marital difficulties in the Wall Street Journal a couple years ago -- which story is now being turned into a motion picture directed by the dude who direction one of the Pirates of the Carribean movies.

It's not a subtle or hidden culture -- now. But regardless, people who work on business and nonprofit and educational concerns in SL don't have to participate.

If you go into that Search you like so much, you can find many more educational, lecture, and arts events that have nothing to do with sex, and a check box that lets you see mature postings, or suppress them. So you know, I don't have that kind of time either, but I actually apparently read the labels on the pull downs and the boxes on the search screen.

SL is a very friendly place to people who don't want to organize their experience around online sex (or sex-oriented RP). I am one of them.

It doesn't make me a prude. I just like my sex in real life, and cybering and pixel sex has never really caught on with me. That's my choice. It threatens no one.

Why is that hard for you to hear? What makes you feel that people don't need to know that SL is about a lot other than sex?

Second Life is a toolkit. You play your game, that's fine, and I'll play mine. But frankly, putting Gor RP before all of the other RP and non-RP purposes of SL seems like it's simply pandering to sensationalism.

Regardless of your sympathy to Gor RP or not, you need to think about how this comes off to a general audience. You've seen the reactions here -- you will attract a few people, and the people who don't want to know -- or don't grok it from a small article -- will be turned so completely off that they will not explore Gor culture further *or* Second Life further.

And I think that they would miss some special things.

So my post intends to tell people that this article is not a culture that is central to most peoples' experience of SL (Gor specifically) and that sex need not be central to *ANYONE'S* experience of SL (not that it doesn't exist).

PLEASE BOTHER TO READ THINGS before you hit reply.

Geez. Trolls, intentional or not, just bug me.

Shava
 

Well... that goes for you too, Shava, doesn't it?

From the article:

"The only thing that really annoys Goreans is people expecting them to be as their critics have painted them. Some girls come looking to be dragged away and collared forcefully then find that actually nobody does that in Gor."

If you've never yourself experienced Gor, how can you critisize it? As the bright cerebrix said, sometimes some things are worth saying twice: Frowning at Gor because you've heard something from someone who heard something from someone is just incredibly ignorant and malignant.

As are all prejudiced opinions.

Originally posted by Bree'ah

Well... that goes for you too, Shava, doesn't it?

From the article:

"The only thing that really annoys Goreans is people expecting them to be as their critics have painted them. Some girls come looking to be dragged away and collared forcefully then find that actually nobody does that in Gor."

If you've never yourself experienced Gor, how can you critisize it? As the bright cerebrix said, sometimes some things are worth saying twice: Frowning at Gor because you've heard something from someone who heard something from someone is just incredibly ignorant and malignant.

As are all prejudiced opinions.

I did not criticize Gor, except as an introduction to the RP community in SL, and to SL in general.  Again, read for comprehension.

If Gor is unknowable except by experience, it doesn't really rate to publish an article on it -- people won't understand it.  (Which I implied earlier was a risk here)

Or, perhaps, this is a culture that people want to learn about and can, in which case it should be viewed in context of ITS OWN WORDS and the greater context it operates in, in SL.

I've never been Irish and never will be, but it doesn't mean that I don't know something about the culture, that I don't have Irish friends, that I haven't spent long evenings participating in the culture and discussing what people love about it.  I know enough to tell you that although there are Irish folks in Boston, they are not the extent of Boston's population, and to point people to resources from the local Irish community where they talk among themselves about their own concerns.  If someone said, "I worry that all Irish folks in Boston are more interested in conservative Catholicism than in secular culture" I would know where to point them toward resources where the Irish community discussed that among themselves.

I haven't said anything negative about Gor except listing a link that was *from* the Gorean community discussing their own culture.  What I've said is that using Gor as the *primary* example of SL community is misleading.

I haven't said anything negative about Gor except that it's not a great introduction to RP in SL, and that there's more to SL than sex. 

When people were discussing forced sex in Gor, I published a link to a reasoned discussion from within that community about the concept of rape (their term, not mine) in Gor.

Get off your high tarn...:)  If your thing is not my thing, and I want people to know that SL is bigger than your community, that should not threaten you.  That's your insecurity, not my words.

Shava

Goreans are crazy bunch...My friend once visited a schoolmate whose whole family are RL goreans...He was yelled out because he refused to address the schoolmates mom as Beast and called out his mind when he saw the schoolmates dad smack the mom...he actually went to cops and cops basically said it's not family violence if it happens under pretense of Gor.

I am not a Gorean, Shava. As I already wrote, but you would know that as you're so thorough in reading other people's posts.

You started out by bashing an RP scenario you have no wish to explore. The Gorean culture is a highly hierachical one with quite a lot of castes. The slaves are just at the bottom of the food chain, and not necessarily the most interesting one of the roles. There're female societies as well, where the females have the high end.

Next up, you single out the rape scenario, which is not a terribly often occuring thing in Gor sims. If you want rape, I'm sure you can find it occuring a good deal more often in quite a few of the modern day sims. Just harder to chuck all those into a neatly labeled box, I guess.

Again. You have nothing but hearsay to base your criticism of Gor on. And yes, you are critisizing.

2nd LIfe is not a game it is a social network and as social networks go it has some pretty despicable groups associated with it.

Anyone trying to purport this as a good game needs to reexamine whatever lead them to that conclusion.

I give a thumbs down to the posts on this thread trying to defend 2nd Life.

Need a bridge there, Ozmodan? ^^

Originally posted by Ozmodan

2nd LIfe is not a game it is a social network and as social networks go it has some pretty despicable groups associated with it.

Anyone trying to purport this as a good game needs to reexamine whatever lead them to that conclusion.

I give a thumbs down to the posts on this thread trying to defend 2nd Life.

"The web is not a game, it's got a lot of social networks, and as social networks go, it has some pretty despicable groups associated with it.  Anyone trying to purport that the web is a good thing needs to re-examine whatever lead them to that conclusion.  I give a thumbs down to anyone using this web site, because using a web site lends support to people I don't like who use the web."

A few random links to refute you -- these were from the first couple links on the searches I did on the topics.

Second Life education

Second Life medical/therapeutic work

Second Life environment outreach

Second Life human rights

Second Life arts

Second Life live music

Second Life business and economics (including original research)

You might conclude from this that SL isn't a game, but there's a lot of work on 'serious games' and SL is a great environment for that kind of experimentation.

Seriously, do you think that (a) the internet is (just for) porn? or (b) playing WOW will get you to heaven?  I think there's a lot more redeeming value to most of SL or the open web than there is in Barrens chat, tyvm.  Every environment has its problem child or so.

Shava

 i think if second life is here, then There should also be here, as well as imvu and red light district.

hell even second life's own faq cant decide if its a game or not.

"2. Is Second Life a game?

Yes and no. While the Second Life interface and display are similar to most popular massively multiplayer online role playing games (or MMORPGs), there are two key, unique differences:

Creativity: The Second Life virtual world provides almost unlimited freedom to its Residents. This world really is whatever you make it. If you want to hang out with your friends in a garden or nightclub, you can. If you want to go shopping or fight dragons, you can. If you want to start a business, create a game or build a skyscraper you can. It’s up to you.
Ownership: Instead of paying a monthly subscription fee, Residents can start a Basic account for FREE. Additional Basic accounts cost a one-time flat fee of just $9.95. If you choose to get land to live, work and build on, you pay a monthly lease fee based on the amount of land you have. You also own anything you create—Residents retain intellectual property rights over their in-world creations."

if you like second life thats fine.  but it doesnt have any place being represented on this website.

yes and no isnt an answer.  one or the other.