Originally posted by Khaunshar

No, I am really not advocating "the way it was" as the best solution, or the golden times. However, I am also not saying everything that changed, changed for the better.

What got better is, in general, the diversity of characters, the ability to achieve the same goal with different approaches. Unfortunately, that got lost in the "you can achieve any goal with the AOE-Spam Approach" of non-Raid gameplay in current MMOs.

I also think the way player time is expected, and how you are much more flexible, is a godsend. Its what makes the games casual friendly in the real sense of casual. Smaller blocks of time at once, more steps instead of one big long slog, 1hr-2hr instances/dungeons instead of 4hr runs. That is good, in my book.

What I thoroughly dislike is that everyone who doesnt play just to get rewards as quickly as possible, but to actually PLAY, in the sense of being challengend, overcoming and enjoying the process, gets the short end of the stick now. Sure, I realize a lot of people dont even move their butt nowadays without a shiny bauble at the end, and while its largely a self-fulfillig prophecy, I get the reality of getting people addicted to this system more easily than to get them addicted to good gameplay, but this isnt mutually exclusive.

Comparing WoW BC and WoW WotLK, what was won by making heroic instances basically redundant/a joke from almost the get-go? Where is this huge, waiting playerbase that was horrendously outmatched by the difficulty of the Burning Crusade heroics, which just NEEDED these cheap, one-note AoE spam fests?

Or why do you remove aggro control for the most part, crowd control and a lot of other subtle aspects which add a lot of variety and gameplay, and replace them with... nothing? Are there so many people just waiting to subscribe but currently feel outmatched by the high difficulty of the game?

No, there arent. I havent seen any of these supposedly untapped, utterly new and entirely incapable players which are supposedly catered to. Nobody else has, either. The subscriber numbers dont seem to mention them, they dont seem to post anywhere... and I believe that many of the new MMORPGs have passed the point of accessability, and are on their way deep into "boring autowin" territory for a while now.

We players are not dumb. We are, while lazy at times, also not by and large asking for the entire game to shower us with rewards upon logging in. Which is, frankly, why many recent releases have huge difficulties meeting even average content expectations of their playerbase.

I used to be in favor of a lot of stuff the genre evolved into. Even as an old EQ1 veteran, I thoroughly enjoyed WoW Classic, and large parts of BC before the 3.0 patch. But I am now of the opinion that in terms of actual gameplay, it has gone a good deal too far, for no real purpose other than to save time in the balancing/finetuning process.

WoW classic was accessable and playable for pretty much everyone. LotRO at release was, too. EQ2, didnt need a tacked-on easymode/solo expansion after 70, and before 10 more, group-based challenging levels of content. Lets not even talk about SWG here. Nevertheless, these games continue to dumb down, and I mean that in the exact meaning of "dumb", content that is working well even for newbies, and sell it as new stuff. So, I can 3-hit a mob now instead of needing 4 hits, and its not social anymore... cool, now I can finally manage to beat the tutorial without dying all the time.... really? Thats what we are going for?

Great post. : ) I agree with you.

Originally posted by Josher

No it wasn't tedious.  It was REFRESHING.  Sitting in one spot for 3 hrs, pulling the same mobs from the same camps, then sitting and chatting for a few minutes between pulls was tedious.  You see I never had to sit in one place in WOW.  I was always on the move if I wanted to be.  I was picking herbs to sell on the AH or give to guildies and mining ore all at the same time.  I was playing alone a bit, then playing with friends for a while.  I was getting into fights with enemy players constantly.   I was outdoors, then in a dungeon.  While in the dungeon it wasn't filled with 10 other groups, all sitting in one spot pulling the same mobs, over and over and over again.  I didn't have to watch the chat bar for TRAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN.   Instead, I was following a story/quest to see what happens(the first time at least).  YES, quest chains attached to dungeons had STORIES and LORE.  Then I'd go do a battleground, sometimes all in the same night.   Then I'd get rewards for all of it. 

Of course WOW could be tedious if you played alone the whole time, never bothed to get invovled in the world or be social, never reading any quests, relying completely  on a mod to tell you exactly where to go, never bothered just running in a direction to see where it leads.  It could be boring if you never bothered making friends, helping people out.  You know...playing it like you played older MMOs.   But I forget, WOW forces you to take the easiest route and play alone.  It forces you to do quests and take a linear path.  It forces you to go to websites to min/max all the quests, removing any exploration.  It forces you to download mods to help you on your way.  It forces everything on you=)  You have no choice=)

 

Its people like you who do not get it.

Yes you have a choice to a point.   You can do what you said if you want to gimp yourself.   If you want to make the journey longer for no other reason to then to make it longer.    Again it brings me back to the point that you guys keep saying that timesinks suck yet you want me to make the choice to make the journey in WoW a timesink.

WoW does not force you but if you do not follow the quest hub to quest hub then you will be making the journey longer just for the sake of making it longer.   WoW is designed for fast leveling and reaching max level fast.   That is how the game is designed.  Sure I could make the journey to max level longer if I wanted to but that is not "fun".

You guys keep saying that grinding mobs is Tedious but doing pointless quest that everyone else has done is way more tedious then grinding mobs.   I say pointless quests because the quest mean nothing to the story or the lore..... Do not kid yourself.  Sure the "Story" says to kill these 10 wolfs because they have become over populated but guess what happens after you finish that "story"?   NOTHING.   NOTHING CHANGES, NOTHING IS EFFECTED.    ITS IS A POINTLESS QUEST.

At least when I am grinding mobs I get to go exploring while I am killing.   At least I get to pick what I want to kill that day.   At least I have a choice in the zone I want to go to today.   WoW does not give you that choice.   If your level x - level x you go here.   If your level z - level z you go here.   That is not choice.   That is not fun.   That is Tedious.

In WoW everyone follows the same path, does the same quests, the same dungeons, the same everything.   That is tedious.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Josher

No it wasn't tedious.  It was REFRESHING.  Sitting in one spot for 3 hrs, pulling the same mobs from the same camps, then sitting and chatting for a few minutes between pulls was tedious.  You see I never had to sit in one place in WOW.  I was always on the move if I wanted to be.  I was picking herbs to sell on the AH or give to guildies and mining ore all at the same time.  I was playing alone a bit, then playing with friends for a while.  I was getting into fights with enemy players constantly.   I was outdoors, then in a dungeon.  While in the dungeon it wasn't filled with 10 other groups, all sitting in one spot pulling the same mobs, over and over and over again.  I didn't have to watch the chat bar for TRAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN.   Instead, I was following a story/quest to see what happens(the first time at least).  YES, quest chains attached to dungeons had STORIES and LORE.  Then I'd go do a battleground, sometimes all in the same night.   Then I'd get rewards for all of it. 

Of course WOW could be tedious if you played alone the whole time, never bothed to get invovled in the world or be social, never reading any quests, relying completely  on a mod to tell you exactly where to go, never bothered just running in a direction to see where it leads.  It could be boring if you never bothered making friends, helping people out.  You know...playing it like you played older MMOs.   But I forget, WOW forces you to take the easiest route and play alone.  It forces you to do quests and take a linear path.  It forces you to go to websites to min/max all the quests, removing any exploration.  It forces you to download mods to help you on your way.  It forces everything on you=)  You have no choice=)

 

Its people like you who do not get it.

Yes you have a choice to a point.   You can do what you said if you want to gimp yourself.   If you want to make the journey longer for no other reason to then to make it longer.    Again it brings me back to the point that you guys keep saying that timesinks suck yet you want me to make the choice to make the journey in WoW a timesink.

WoW does not force you but if you do not follow the quest hub to quest hub then you will be making the journey longer just for the sake of making it longer.   WoW is designed for fast leveling and reaching max level fast.   That is how the game is designed.  Sure I could make the journey to max level longer if I wanted to but that is not "fun".

You guys keep saying that grinding mobs is Tedious but doing pointless quest that everyone else has done is way more tedious then grinding mobs.   I say pointless quests because the quest mean nothing to the story or the lore..... Do not kid yourself.  Sure the "Story" says to kill these 10 wolfs because they have become over populated but guess what happens after you finish that "story"?   NOTHING.   NOTHING CHANGES, NOTHING IS EFFECTED.    ITS IS A POINTLESS QUEST.

At least when I am grinding mobs I get to go exploring while I am killing.   At least I get to pick what I want to kill that day.   At least I have a choice in the zone I want to go to today.   WoW does not give you that choice.   If your level x - level x you go here.   If your level z - level z you go here.   That is not choice.   That is not fun.   That is Tedious.

In WoW everyone follows the same path, does the same quests, the same dungeons, the same everything.   That is tedious.

 

I couldn't read anymore of your ramblings past the last thing I marked in RED. All I can say is you are lost as a gamer, I really feel bad for you. I hope you find you way again because you really don't understand video games like WoW anymore. They are meant to be fun. Blizzard didn't try to make the game so you level as fast as possible to max level, you're totally clueless on that. Why do ALL the quests have a story and lore and dungeons that link to the stories and bosses that match the lore and so on? Why is all that there? So you can smash through it as fast as possible to raid because that's the 'point'?
 

The answer is no. Hardcore gamers are the ones who decided that is how WoW is meant to be played. There are still millions others still playing casual, reading the quests, taking their time, see all their is to see. The point of WoW is not to get to end game and raid, in fact it is excluded to most players without a lot of free time. The point of WoW is to have fun and for Blizzard to make some money from it's customers enjoyment. Lighten up a bit, stop being so hardcore and just enjoy gaming. :) It can be a lot more fun if you relax a little.

WOW isn't perfect.
EQ was a lot less perfect.

While "hardcore" isn't exactly how I'd describe the dubious mechanics EQ had, the conversation at hand is mostly about how modern MMORPGs are better -- rather than discussing how WOW isn't perfect (particularly going off about how quests don't change the world, given that no MMORPG offers that.)

Thus far it seems pretty well proven that current mechanics are superior to the old ones, but the exact implementation leaves a bit to be desired (especially the ability to access truly hard content.) Granted, there's still room for the niche playerbases that crave truly punishing mechanics (like perman-death) but such games will inevitably shun a wide swath of players because...well...they're punishing!

In Chess you aren't kicked in the shins each time you lose a piece. You aren't banned from tournaments perma-death style after losing one match. And yet every move you make has consequence. Gradually MMORPGs will discover how to craft deeper experiences (shallow gameplay being the major failing of most current MMOs) and players fond of punishing mechanics will realize those mechanics aren't necessary.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by GoldenDog

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

 

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

 

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

 

Two hours a day is still fourteen hours a week.

Really. I'm lucky if I get 2 hours a week...

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Calind0r

Solo questing to 80 involving 50% of your time running from point A to B so you can collect 8 seeds, then run another 5 minutes to kill 20 mobs to save a village, hitting the level cap, running the exact same few instances over and over and over which got dull the 3rd or 4th time to maybe get 1 decent item, running the same few raids twice a week, every week even after you're geared spending hours just for the sake of someone else getting 1 set item that might not even drop, or farming impersonal BG's where you don't really care if your side wins as long as you get +Honour...are not your idea of something tedious? What games did you play before WoW?

 

 

What you describe is 100x better than EQ, one of my first MMORPG .. which boils down to grinding single mob till 50, then camp 6 hrs in a dungeon for nothing.

 

No it wasn't tedious.  It was REFRESHING.  Sitting in one spot for 3 hrs, pulling the same mobs from the same camps, then sitting and chatting for a few minutes between pulls was tedious.  You see I never had to sit in one place in WOW.  I was always on the move if I wanted to be.  I was picking herbs to sell on the AH or give to guildies and mining ore all at the same time.  I was playing alone a bit, then playing with friends for a while.  I was getting into fights with enemy players constantly.   I was outdoors, then in a dungeon.  While in the dungeon it wasn't filled with 10 other groups, all sitting in one spot pulling the same mobs, over and over and over again.  I didn't have to watch the chat bar for TRAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN.   Instead, I was following a story/quest to see what happens(the first time at least).  YES, quest chains attached to dungeons had STORIES and LORE.  Then I'd go do a battleground, sometimes all in the same night.   Then I'd get rewards for all of it. 

Of course WOW could be tedious if you played alone the whole time, never bothed to get invovled in the world or be social, never reading any quests, relying completely  on a mod to tell you exactly where to go, never bothered just running in a direction to see where it leads.  It could be boring if you never bothered making friends, helping people out.  You know...playing it like you played older MMOs.   But I forget, WOW forces you to take the easiest route and play alone.  It forces you to do quests and take a linear path.  It forces you to go to websites to min/max all the quests, removing any exploration.  It forces you to download mods to help you on your way.  It forces everything on you=)  You have no choice=)

 

I guess its just that way with PvE for me then. I find that no less tedious than what you do in WoW. I enjoy the simple grinding of mobs, only when games make higher level/group grinding actually a challenge...Not just solo grinding. You can relax with some tunes, talk on vent with friends, have a beer and play relaxed not focusing so much. Of course its important to have a variety of things to do...But In WoW its basically solo quest, then run heroics til you're moderately geared, then run raids, raids and more raids...Your options aren't very open, and it makes it worse that 95% of the PvP is completely secluded from everything else in the game, and that generally gear and builds have to be for one or the other and not both.

I will always enjoy PvP game the most, where to get a raid boss, you will have to PvP, there are mass PvP situations that reward you and your clan with immediate things, like winning a castle or raid...ganking everywhere because the arena's dont reward you, etc...its like doubling the content and things to do in a game. WoW PvP is kinda meh, sitting in the BG's and then advancing to a few seconds long arena matches.

I would consider myself a harcore player,but sadly most figure that means PVP,and it does not.

I consider hardcore to mean challenging,everything in the game must be worked at.I expect a game like that to have full anti cheat and a design that has no use for RMT.Then i would LOVE a hardcore game,because i would know we are all i nthe same boat.I would take "Hardcore" a step further meaning EVERYTHING must be earned via solo.The game could and should be mainly party design,but when comes to attaining anything you have to do it alone.

I think all drops/mobs should be greyed out,so if you want to go ahead and race to end game,to prove something,you will give up the opportunity to attain certain items throughout the game.I think there should be a distinctive death penalty,i mean nobody would be playing for the purpose to see how many times the ycan die or how inept their abilities are.

The problem with "Hardcore" is it will remove potential subs,sadly enough it all comes back to "MONEY"this is why we may never see a full quality hardcore game.

Originally posted by Cereo

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Josher

No it wasn't tedious.  It was REFRESHING.  Sitting in one spot for 3 hrs, pulling the same mobs from the same camps, then sitting and chatting for a few minutes between pulls was tedious.  You see I never had to sit in one place in WOW.  I was always on the move if I wanted to be.  I was picking herbs to sell on the AH or give to guildies and mining ore all at the same time.  I was playing alone a bit, then playing with friends for a while.  I was getting into fights with enemy players constantly.   I was outdoors, then in a dungeon.  While in the dungeon it wasn't filled with 10 other groups, all sitting in one spot pulling the same mobs, over and over and over again.  I didn't have to watch the chat bar for TRAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN.   Instead, I was following a story/quest to see what happens(the first time at least).  YES, quest chains attached to dungeons had STORIES and LORE.  Then I'd go do a battleground, sometimes all in the same night.   Then I'd get rewards for all of it. 

Of course WOW could be tedious if you played alone the whole time, never bothed to get invovled in the world or be social, never reading any quests, relying completely  on a mod to tell you exactly where to go, never bothered just running in a direction to see where it leads.  It could be boring if you never bothered making friends, helping people out.  You know...playing it like you played older MMOs.   But I forget, WOW forces you to take the easiest route and play alone.  It forces you to do quests and take a linear path.  It forces you to go to websites to min/max all the quests, removing any exploration.  It forces you to download mods to help you on your way.  It forces everything on you=)  You have no choice=)

 

Its people like you who do not get it.

Yes you have a choice to a point.   You can do what you said if you want to gimp yourself.   If you want to make the journey longer for no other reason to then to make it longer.    Again it brings me back to the point that you guys keep saying that timesinks suck yet you want me to make the choice to make the journey in WoW a timesink.

WoW does not force you but if you do not follow the quest hub to quest hub then you will be making the journey longer just for the sake of making it longer.   WoW is designed for fast leveling and reaching max level fast.   That is how the game is designed.  Sure I could make the journey to max level longer if I wanted to but that is not "fun".

You guys keep saying that grinding mobs is Tedious but doing pointless quest that everyone else has done is way more tedious then grinding mobs.   I say pointless quests because the quest mean nothing to the story or the lore..... Do not kid yourself.  Sure the "Story" says to kill these 10 wolfs because they have become over populated but guess what happens after you finish that "story"?   NOTHING.   NOTHING CHANGES, NOTHING IS EFFECTED.    ITS IS A POINTLESS QUEST.

At least when I am grinding mobs I get to go exploring while I am killing.   At least I get to pick what I want to kill that day.   At least I have a choice in the zone I want to go to today.   WoW does not give you that choice.   If your level x - level x you go here.   If your level z - level z you go here.   That is not choice.   That is not fun.   That is Tedious.

In WoW everyone follows the same path, does the same quests, the same dungeons, the same everything.   That is tedious.

 

I couldn't read anymore of your ramblings past the last thing I marked in RED. All I can say is you are lost as a gamer, I really feel bad for you. I hope you find you way again because you really don't understand video games like WoW anymore. They are meant to be fun. Blizzard didn't try to make the game so you level as fast as possible to max level, you're totally clueless on that. Why do ALL the quests have a story and lore and dungeons that link to the stories and bosses that match the lore and so on? Why is all that there? So you can smash through it as fast as possible to raid because that's the 'point'?
 

The answer is no. Hardcore gamers are the ones who decided that is how WoW is meant to be played. There are still millions others still playing casual, reading the quests, taking their time, see all their is to see. The point of WoW is not to get to end game and raid, in fact it is excluded to most players without a lot of free time. The point of WoW is to have fun and for Blizzard to make some money from it's customers enjoyment. Lighten up a bit, stop being so hardcore and just enjoy gaming. :) It can be a lot more fun if you relax a little.

You just do not get it.  What is the point of the story and the lore if it does not matter if you kill the boss at the end of the story.  

A story or lore is only important if it makes a difference in the world.   Yes cool the quest tells me to kill this boss orc because he keeps leading raids into the near by town.  So I go and kill him, guess what, he just respawns and the next groups comes in and kills him.   That is not a good story or lore. 

WoW is designed for fast leveling.  If you follow the quest hubs like blizzard has designed the game around then you will hit max level quickly.   How is the game not designed for that?  

These "millions of others still playing casual have at least 3 max level charaters on there accounts because leveling to max in WoW is fast.  

The whole point of having lore and stories are to give the player the feeling of a real world, the problem is that the lore and stories mean nothing to the gameplay. 

I have fun by being challenged but todays MMOs have no challenge.  Its all handed to you on a golden plater.

I enjoying gaming.  I love gaming.   I am working as a level builder for an MMO company that is how much I enjoy gaming but todays MMOs are so easy and simple they are not fun.   They are mindless risk free games.   They hold your hand from start to finish.   You cannot make a mistake, you cannot lose anything, you cannot lose period.   That is not fun.   That is boring as borning can be.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I would consider myself a harcore player,but sadly most figure that means PVP,and it does not.

I consider hardcore to mean challenging,everything in the game must be worked at.I expect a game like that to have full anti cheat and a design that has no use for RMT.Then i would LOVE a hardcore game,because i would know we are all i nthe same boat.I would take "Hardcore" a step further meaning EVERYTHING must be earned via solo.The game could and should be mainly party design,but when comes to attaining anything you have to do it alone.

I think all drops/mobs should be greyed out,so if you want to go ahead and race to end game,to prove something,you will give up the opportunity to attain certain items throughout the game.I think there should be a distinctive death penalty,i mean nobody would be playing for the purpose to see how many times the ycan die or how inept their abilities are.

The problem with "Hardcore" is it will remove potential subs,sadly enough it all comes back to "MONEY"this is why we may never see a full quality hardcore game.

I think you are going to be waiting a very long time for this "game"......

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Its people like you who do not get it.

Yes you have a choice to a point.   You can do what you said if you want to gimp yourself.   If you want to make the journey longer for no other reason to then to make it longer.    Again it brings me back to the point that you guys keep saying that timesinks suck yet you want me to make the choice to make the journey in WoW a timesink.

WoW does not force you but if you do not follow the quest hub to quest hub then you will be making the journey longer just for the sake of making it longer.   WoW is designed for fast leveling and reaching max level fast.   That is how the game is designed.  Sure I could make the journey to max level longer if I wanted to but that is not "fun".

You guys keep saying that grinding mobs is Tedious but doing pointless quest that everyone else has done is way more tedious then grinding mobs.   I say pointless quests because the quest mean nothing to the story or the lore..... Do not kid yourself.  Sure the "Story" says to kill these 10 wolfs because they have become over populated but guess what happens after you finish that "story"?   NOTHING.   NOTHING CHANGES, NOTHING IS EFFECTED.    ITS IS A POINTLESS QUEST.

At least when I am grinding mobs I get to go exploring while I am killing.   At least I get to pick what I want to kill that day.   At least I have a choice in the zone I want to go to today.   WoW does not give you that choice.   If your level x - level x you go here.   If your level z - level z you go here.   That is not choice.   That is not fun.   That is Tedious.

In WoW everyone follows the same path, does the same quests, the same dungeons, the same everything.   That is tedious.

 

WOW was designed to be fun and not slow and tedious.  Thats all.  You chose to rush, ignore the lore, ignore reading the quests, ignore making friends, ect.   Blizzard didn't force you to.  You chose to ignore everything that makes WOW fun for millions of people, some who found EQ a total bore.  Somebody didn't get it.

There was only one way to play EQ.  Find spawn and min/max your EXP/hr.   It was always slow.  You had to figure out any possible way to speed the process up.  Anything less and you were behind and then it was REALLY slow.  You brought that mentality to WOW and it ruined your experience.  Blame Verant and SOE.  Blizzard gave you a new way to play MMOs...casually at your own pace, alone or in groups OR rush to max lvl and ignore all the content.  You chose to play the old way, RUSHING.  What a shame;)

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by TdogSkal

What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period.

If you make a good game then players will play it.  This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. 

MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME.  Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game.

Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle.   Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it.

Perfect example is the Wii.   The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players.   It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles.  

So all you want to be developers out there.  MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.

 

 

This is probably one of the most intelligent, logical, and rational forum posts I have ever seen. Well done TdogSkal, well done.

The game that will get a huge amount of subs is the game that will have options for different kinds of players. Those with all the time in the world and those without it.

They must only fear having too many options so each choice becomes diluted and unimportant, or each is not fully realized and shallow.

  Agreed with both of these posts. 

Let's stop looking at it as Hardcore vs. Casual.  Isn't there a middle ground?  A good game, as the first post states.  One which is challenging, but not too hard.  One that is easy to get into but has depth and complexity to it.  Polished and has good content.  I can't think of any current games that have all of this except maybe WoW.  Now, I play EVE, which you can play casually, but it's definitely geared towards the hardcore scene.  And it's worked because they've stuck to their guns and kept it hardcore.  It's slowly grown from having 5-10k players online at once to hardly ever dipping below 30k players online recently.  On one server.  And it continues to grow. 

Let me give an example of a "good" game from singleplayer games: Portal.  Portal is one of the greatest games ever made and it is just so well-balanced.  The basic concept is easy to understand, but there is a lot of depth with using the portal gun.  It was polished, it required me to think to solve the puzzles but it wasn't so unbelievebly hard I wanted to quit playing.  It was just overall a good game because it didn't tend to go to any extremes.  The only criticism I've ever heard of this game is that it's too short but I think it was just the right length.  

So let's see someone make a good game.  Stop releasing half-assed POS.  Don't try to cater towards some market, just make a good, polished game and watch the sub numbers roll in.  It's all about balance.  Certain games just have the right combination of features that make them amazing. Graphics, sound, setting, story, gameplay, difficulty, etc. must all be well-balanced to create a good game.  It's hard to make one that is at this level. 

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Let me give an example of a "good" game from singleplayer games: Portal.  Portal is one of the greatest games ever made and it is just so well-balanced.  The basic concept is easy to understand, but there is a lot of depth with using the portal gun.  It was polished, it required me to think to solve the puzzles but it wasn't so unbelievebly hard I wanted to quit playing.  It was just overall a good game because it didn't tend to go to any extremes.  The only criticism I've ever heard of this game is that it's too short but I think it was just the right length.  

Here's another for you: World of Goo.

I am addicted to that game and proud of it.  Simple concept, excellent execution, fantastic humor,  but don't think that means easy. The game is quite challenging. And only TWO people developed the game.

Hardcore wasnt just about how much time was spent, it was about networking.  You got items if you KNEW people that would take the time to raid or party up and get you the item.  If you didnt know anybody you didnt group with anybody but pugs, nobody likes pugs simply because of those casual turds that leave after only 30 min.  I cant tell you how many pug's we let into our party and they would leave after maybe 20 or 40 min because of some bogus excuse.  If you dont have the time to play the game, dont get in a damn party with people that will nerd rage your face into a melted pile of dookie.  You can quote me on that.

Best example for me for hardcore is WoW classic PVP ranking system and 40 man raids, both were hardcore features based around the fact that they demand alot of time from the user to gain items which make him glorfied in the game - stuff which hardcore players like, both "removed" by Blizzard, going after the money - hardcore players won't quit the game and you satisify the casual players who might leave the game because of stuff like that.

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Originally posted by TdogSkal
You just do not get it.  What is the point of the story and the lore if it does not matter if you kill the boss at the end of the story.  
A story or lore is only important if it makes a difference in the world.   Yes cool the quest tells me to kill this boss orc because he keeps leading raids into the near by town.  So I go and kill him, guess what, he just respawns and the next groups comes in and kills him.   That is not a good story or lore.

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It's fine to have some dream about this mythical game that lets each quest impact the world's story (or more realistically: instanced or phased sections of the world where your quests impact the story), but unless you can explain how it's accomplished or give an example, you're being sort of useless.

It's like if you went onto a forum about Fuel/Energy and criticized energy researchers for not developing a clean, infinite source of energy. Yes, we understand that humans haven't yet reached the pinnacle of Energy or MMORPG technologies -- thank you for your useful contribution.

Your comments about wanting a challenge are reasonable. But it would have to come in the form of user-controlled difficulty (either a flat-out Difficulty slider like what CoX has, or quests specifically marked with their difficulty.) Because if a noob ever reaches a point where content is just too hard for them, they're going to quit playing - the progression needs to be there for all player types.

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

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Why Games Aren’t Art, and Hardcore MMO Players Are Yesterday’s News

 

The MMO Gamer: So then you’re the sort of person who believes that the industry is becoming more bite-sized, casual game focused, as opposed to hardcore AAA title focused?

Paul Barnett: We’re getting more casual players, and wider audiences who are less obsessed with the old-school. You’ve got people who want to have their gaming time defined. “I’ve got half an hour before I’m going out. I know playing this game will only take half an hour,” or “I’ve got to put the kids to bed. I know that if I let them play this game, I can say ‘you’ve got one more level’,” knowing that one more level means 30 minutes and you can get them to bed.

The “I want to do stuff before I go shopping, or before the football’s on.” The “I want to be able to share that information, I want it to be viral. I want to turn up at work and be like ‘Hey, man, I’ve been playing this crazy game. Here, I can beam it straight to your mobile.’”

You know, people who generally don’t have a hardcore computer room can get interested in this idea and understand what it is.

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It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

Actually it goes even farther than not caring.  Most "normal" people find it downright disturbing, even disgusting.  Being a part of that kind of social scene is not attractive to them, in fact its is very unattractive.

The problem with the football fan analogy is that you can be a super dedicated fan or just whatever you get the same thing out of the football game.  Being hardcore is purely a social thing that some people enjoy and most normal kind of shrug their shoulders at.

Once you force them to judge the hardcore by trying make them make a choice (usually by figuring out whether getting certain items is worthwhile).  Then the normal people will judge them harshly because they think crap is out of hand and therefore sick.

I never cared or bothered to judge the people who put on face paint for a game or yelled a whole lot.  Start rewarding those guys or trying to force me to act like them and i will tell you to go to hell and you move me into a train of thought about juding these people and actions that are being encouraged or required.

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by TdogSkal

What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period.

If you make a good game then players will play it.  This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. 

MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME.  Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game.

Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle.   Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it.

Perfect example is the Wii.   The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players.   It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles.  

So all you want to be developers out there.  MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.

 

 

This is probably one of the most intelligent, logical, and rational forum posts I have ever seen. Well done TdogSkal, well done.

The game that will get a huge amount of subs is the game that will have options for different kinds of players. Those with all the time in the world and those without it.

They must only fear having too many options so each choice becomes diluted and unimportant, or each is not fully realized and shallow.

  Agreed with both of these posts. 

Let's stop looking at it as Hardcore vs. Casual.  Isn't there a middle ground?  A good game, as the first post states.  One which is challenging, but not too hard.  One that is easy to get into but has depth and complexity to it.  Polished and has good content.  I can't think of any current games that have all of this except maybe WoW.  Now, I play EVE, which you can play casually, but it's definitely geared towards the hardcore scene.  And it's worked because they've stuck to their guns and kept it hardcore.  It's slowly grown from having 5-10k players online at once to hardly ever dipping below 30k players online recently.  On one server.  And it continues to grow. 

Let me give an example of a "good" game from singleplayer games: Portal.  Portal is one of the greatest games ever made and it is just so well-balanced.  The basic concept is easy to understand, but there is a lot of depth with using the portal gun.  It was polished, it required me to think to solve the puzzles but it wasn't so unbelievebly hard I wanted to quit playing.  It was just overall a good game because it didn't tend to go to any extremes.  The only criticism I've ever heard of this game is that it's too short but I think it was just the right length.  

So let's see someone make a good game.  Stop releasing half-assed POS.  Don't try to cater towards some market, just make a good, polished game and watch the sub numbers roll in.  It's all about balance.  Certain games just have the right combination of features that make them amazing. Graphics, sound, setting, story, gameplay, difficulty, etc. must all be well-balanced to create a good game.  It's hard to make one that is at this level. 

That's just it, you can't have a medium ground.  In order to give hardcore gaming meaning, it has to have better perks and content than casual content or no one will do it.  So, right off the bat you have casual content that is a joke, with 75% of it comprised of fed-ex quests and faction grinding and very little story beyond killing X number of rats.  To make matters worse, hardcores end up getting all of the cool and powerful rewards, once again, stressing how unimportant casual gameplay is considered by the developers.

My last hope for this genre is SWTOR.  I'm hoping Bioware can look beyond their noses and realize that all types of players want to feel like their play style is important, entertaining and rewarding and not have it relegated as always to hardcores and raiders.  I could care less if a game offers casual content if that content sucks or is boring or is unrewarding, especially in comparison to what hardcores get.  Give me an MMO that treats my play style like a King or they can loose any chance of getting my subscription money.

I'm too old, too tired and too stingy with my time and money to tolerate any more of the same old, same old, MMO paradigms currently infecting the market.

That's just it, you can't have a medium ground.  In order to give hardcore gaming meaning, it has to have better perks and content than casual content or no one will do it.  So, right off the bat you have casual content that is a joke, with 75% of it comprised of fed-ex quests and faction grinding and very little story beyond killing X number of rats.  To make matters worse, hardcores end up getting all of the cool and powerful rewards, once again, stressing how unimportant casual gameplay is considered by the developers.

Bingo. This is how I've felt for my entire MMO life. There is only two games that made casuals and hardcore meet on equal terms. DAoC and EVE. EVE isn't my style, and DAoC is old, and later expansions ruined it.

EQ and WOW, basically take big dumps on the casuals who keep/kept the games afloat.

Originally posted by brostyn

That's just it, you can't have a medium ground.  In order to give hardcore gaming meaning, it has to have better perks and content than casual content or no one will do it.  So, right off the bat you have casual content that is a joke, with 75% of it comprised of fed-ex quests and faction grinding and very little story beyond killing X number of rats.  To make matters worse, hardcores end up getting all of the cool and powerful rewards, once again, stressing how unimportant casual gameplay is considered by the developers.

 

Bingo. This is how I've felt for my entire MMO life. There is only two games that made casuals and hardcore meet on equal terms. DAoC and EVE. EVE isn't my style, and DAoC is old, and later expansions ruined it.

EQ and WOW, basically take big dumps on the casuals who keep/kept the games afloat.

DAOC got watered down to make the casuals be able to compete with the "elite"

it wasn't always the case up until about the games halfway point or a year or so later

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Let me give an example of a "good" game from singleplayer games: Portal.  Portal is one of the greatest games ever made and it is just so well-balanced.  The basic concept is easy to understand, but there is a lot of depth with using the portal gun.  It was polished, it required me to think to solve the puzzles but it wasn't so unbelievebly hard I wanted to quit playing.  It was just overall a good game because it didn't tend to go to any extremes.  The only criticism I've ever heard of this game is that it's too short but I think it was just the right length.  

 

Here's another for you: World of Goo.

I am addicted to that game and proud of it.  Simple concept, excellent execution, fantastic humor,  but don't think that means easy. The game is quite challenging. And only TWO people developed the game.

Love that game as well. World of Goo is just a great game. Games don't have to be labeled hardcore or casual. I would rather them be judged on whether or not they are a great game. I have played a lot of different games and I have never thought to myself while playing a good game whether or not it was casual or hardcore.