Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by EvolvedMonky  

 

I kinda miss the downtime.  It just added something. Now its just go go go.   Its sucks that I can spend long periods of time on any other hobby and its okay but if that hobby is video games. Your labeld a loser.

And im not saying heavy time sinks = hardcore.  Its about dumbing mmos down to the point that its like playing little league. Everyones a winner.

Point 3 screams I want a single player game with a chat room. 

 

People actually defended downtime?? LOL. Downtown = non-game. It is NOT a game anymore. You can go to a chat room to achieve the same results as downtime.

There is no problem with a single player game with a chat room. At least it is >>>> down-time because it has a game there. What is wrong with that?

 

No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

Originally posted by TdogSkal 
No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

After many many years of WOW, I've developed a way to self-generate downtime.  It's complicated and involves a lot of steps so bear with me:

1. Finish killing mob.
2. Chat.

There's a difference between "giving you time" to chat and "forcing you to have huge spurts of not playing the game."

First off, you would kill more than one mob before having to med for mana. And if you were smart and knew how to manage your mana and also had buffs, there would be basically no downtime.

Secondly, you have obviously never played EQ if you say WoW is 100x bigger. Obviously EQ is WAAAAAY larger seeing how it has been out for many many years before WoW and has many many many expansions under its belt. Even four years after its release the game world was bigger than WoW is now.

MMOs are meant to be social rpgs, hate to burst that buble where you think an MMO is supposed to be a single player with a chat system. It's the reason there are guilds in the game. If it were supposed to be a single player with a chat system then why put in guilds?

In EQ time =/ loot. In WoW time = loot. Nuff said.

You want to call all of us losers for liking EQ over WoW because you base your argument on the "OMG YOU JUST WASTED A BAZILLION HOURS IN EQ LOSERS!!" Well all I have to say is you're a loser for wasting time and aruging on the internet about video games. Oh wait...that includes me! Oh well...at least I have you for company and at least I know when I'm being a hypocrite unlike yourself.

Yes, the days of the hardcore game seem to be dying, but DarkFall, Mortal, Earthrise, and Fallen Earth all seem to promise a resurgance to the hardcore days.

WoW is fun and interesting if you're 10, 65, or rather have everything handed to you in a Happy Meal so you're gauranteed to get your cool "toy" or in this case, "purples".

I, on the other hand, enjoy working and earning my gear in which it doesn't require me to run the same damn dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over until I get all my loot and then have to wait 6+months in Ogrimmar spamming trade channel until Blizzard releases another dungeon for me and my guild to easily walk through and then wait some more until the lemmings/underling guilds are able to cruise through it and then rinse and repeat process.

In EQ there was no downtime when it came to end game. This is why EQ > WoW.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

That is stupid. Downtime FORCE you to find something else to do. If I want to talk to frds & meet people (which i did in abundance in WOW), i stop playing for a min and chat. I am "allows" to talk to frds and meet new people WITHOUT downtime.

And your characterization of EQ1 is NOT correct. In a mage heavy group, there is just not enough mana regen to keep going and going. You have to SIT to regen enough mana. Plus, the downtime is HORRIBLE during solo play. Literally 5-10 min between kills. And there is also down time because of SLOW regen rate and camping. The whole game is just NOT designed well to be fun.

Originally posted by Retrad

MMOs are meant to be social rpgs, hate to burst that buble where you think an MMO is supposed to be a single player with a chat system. It's the reason there are guilds in the game. If it were supposed to be a single player with a chat system then why put in guilds?

Yes, the days of the hardcore game seem to be dying, but DarkFall, Mortal, Earthrise, and Fallen Earth all seem to promise a resurgance to the hardcore days.

Says who? MMORPGs are games. Pure and simple. And developers will make it catering to what people want, not what YOU WANT. And I didn't say it is suposed to be a SP game with chat, i am saying i have no problem with that philosophy. The new bioware starwar games seem to be going that direction.

If it is fun, people will play.

Darkfall?? Which is panned by critics? Tell me, how many subscribers does it have now? Sure there are people making more hardcore game. There are always niche games. Even Eve cannot get to 500k people, which is wat EQ has at its height.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by TdogSkal 
No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

After many many years of WOW, I've developed a way to self-generate downtime.  It's complicated and involves a lot of steps so bear with me:

1. Finish killing mob.
2. Chat.

There's a difference between "giving you time" to chat and "forcing you to have huge spurts of not playing the game."

Again way to read my post before response.  Your skills are amazing.

I had very little if any downtime in EQ.   I knew my class and how to manage my mana which allowed me not to have downtime while playing.   Again its that thing called ummm   oh yea thinking and problem solving.  

Pug groups in WoW are horriable because players are not forced to learn there class, they can just spam there skills and win.  In EQ Pug groups for the most part were great and I used them alot because players were forced to learn there class.  Learn what they could and could not do.  WoW does not give the players the same kind of training.   WoW does not allow players to make mistakes and learn from them.  

I play Video games because I LOVE PROBLEM SOLVING.   I do it all day at my job and I do it while playing Video games.   I love to do it and that is why I love video games but the "next gen" MMOs have taken that away from me.   There is no reason to problem solve because everything is laid out for you.   They hold your hand from start to finish and do not allow you to make mistakes.

I hate todays MMOs.   They are boring, they are not even video games.  There is no thinking involved, no risk, no planning, nothing but following the on screen instructions.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

 

That is stupid. Downtime FORCE you to find something else to do. If I want to talk to frds & meet people (which i did in abundance in WOW), i stop playing for a min and chat. I am "allows" to talk to frds and meet new people WITHOUT downtime.

And your characterization of EQ1 is NOT correct. In a mage heavy group, there is just not enough mana regen to keep going and going. You have to SIT to regen enough mana. Plus, the downtime is HORRIBLE during solo play. Literally 5-10 min between kills. And there is also down time because of SLOW regen rate and camping. The whole game is just NOT designed well to be fun.

Well, since I had plenty of fun in EQ, I suppose there must be a different version of it you guys all hate, or..... gasp.... maybe its subjective? Maybe WoW is better than EQ in some peoples minds, and the other way around? Maybe that opinion can even CHANGE? What a novel concept.

Guys, stop argueing for or against hardcore/casual/whatever elements by claiming Game A is better than Game B. Its entirely subjective.

Plus, WoW has changed a lot from its classic days, which started the fire, and today, where we are at 11.5 million (though for over 7 months now, interestingly, there hasnt been the 12 Mil. announcement) with a probably entirely different playerbase. WoW has catered to 2, if not 3 different audiences over the years, won and lost them, so I find it pretty hard to claim that the current course of WoW is the one that got it to 11 Million, and its also hard to claim it was the first 2 years of, relatively, a more challenging game that did it.

Instead, the basic question at this point of this thread seems to be: Is the concept of giving rewards tied to the concept for overcoming challenges, or are we by now at the point where rewards are to be guaranteed for simply playing the game in any way, and the concept of not overcoming a challenge, the concept of failure or losing, is to be removed.

Also, as a sidenote, is the capacity to function in a social environment, say a guild or a group, a quality to be rewarded, or should the social component be intentionally removed to give the socially inept, or unwilling casual players the same chances are the socializer?

I believe at the logical end of this process, we will have reduced MMORPG gameplay to TV-level passive entertainment, because that is the epitome of equal opportunity. Which makes sense, seeing how several surveys indicate people are giving up TV time in favor or MMO time anyway.

By then, its probably necessary to split the games into different ones, as the people who call themselves casual in this thread (yet not because of time issues, but because of wanting rewards easier) would need a completely different game than those who actually rather play a game than watch a reward show.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

 

That is stupid. Downtime FORCE you to find something else to do. If I want to talk to frds & meet people (which i did in abundance in WOW), i stop playing for a min and chat. I am "allows" to talk to frds and meet new people WITHOUT downtime.

And your characterization of EQ1 is NOT correct. In a mage heavy group, there is just not enough mana regen to keep going and going. You have to SIT to regen enough mana. Plus, the downtime is HORRIBLE during solo play. Literally 5-10 min between kills. And there is also down time because of SLOW regen rate and camping. The whole game is just NOT designed well to be fun.

Dude just stop on the EQ1 topic, you are never going to win this one. For several reason, a few of which are you have very little knowledge it seems of EQ1. IF you did play it and I say that loosely, you weren't very good at it or considered a "smart" players as defined by all these people you are arguing with.

I could go back and pick out about 10 mistakes you have made in regards to EQ1 already and everytime you post, you just add another mistake to the list.

I highly suggest you leave the EQ1 discussion to those of us who actually played the damn thing, and stick to what you think you know which seems to be wow.

Full group of mages.... who ever put together a damn raid group of full mages... I swear.

WoW is bigger.... you must be smoking crack.

10 Min downtime while soloing.... sure if you were trying to kite something 20 times your level and were dumb enough to burn all your mana and stam.... only class I ever witnessed trying to do that was a Druid and they were very efficient at it, sometimes taking them 20 minutes before they had to stop and rest while grinding shit way higher than they were.

Just stop, your knowledge is to limited on EQ1 to make any argument you have valid.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

No see downtime allows you to talk with friends and meet new people.   Games like WoW were you just keep moving forward with no breaks to relax and chat are not fun.   I can do that in Single player RPGs.   I want my MMORPG to give me time to chat with friends and met new people.

Seriously though EQ1 only had downtime if you were not in a smart group and they did not manager there mana well.   I have been in groups many times were we kill non stop with no downtime at all.  

 

That is stupid. Downtime FORCE you to find something else to do. If I want to talk to frds & meet people (which i did in abundance in WOW), i stop playing for a min and chat. I am "allows" to talk to frds and meet new people WITHOUT downtime.

And your characterization of EQ1 is NOT correct. In a mage heavy group, there is just not enough mana regen to keep going and going. You have to SIT to regen enough mana. Plus, the downtime is HORRIBLE during solo play. Literally 5-10 min between kills. And there is also down time because of SLOW regen rate and camping. The whole game is just NOT designed well to be fun.

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

If you had 5 to 10 min between kills then you suck... plain and simple.   Even with my Warrior I could get 2 to 3 mobs killed before I need to rest and then it was not even close to 5 mins.  maybe like 2 or 3 then back to killing.   Sorry but if you are serious about your numbers then no wounder you hate EQ1, you suck at gaming.

The game was designed very well.   It allowed those who were smart to advance faster and have more fun then stupid people.  The gameplay required thinking and planning and problem solving.  How can that not be fun.    It did not require any more time then WoW does. 

Every MMO ever made is a timesink.  To say other wise is stupid.   To say that EQ1 was more of a timesink then WoW is stupid.  Both require time to advance.  EQ1 just made you think the whole time vs WoW were you can turn your brain off and still advance at the same rate.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Retrad

MMOs are meant to be social rpgs, hate to burst that buble where you think an MMO is supposed to be a single player with a chat system. It's the reason there are guilds in the game. If it were supposed to be a single player with a chat system then why put in guilds?

Yes, the days of the hardcore game seem to be dying, but DarkFall, Mortal, Earthrise, and Fallen Earth all seem to promise a resurgance to the hardcore days.

 

Says who? MMORPGs are games. Pure and simple. And developers will make it catering to what people want, not what YOU WANT. And I didn't say it is suposed to be a SP game with chat, i am saying i have no problem with that philosophy. The new bioware starwar games seem to be going that direction.

If it is fun, people will play.

Darkfall?? Which is panned by critics? Tell me, how many subscribers does it have now? Sure there are people making more hardcore game. There are always niche games. Even Eve cannot get to 500k people, which is wat EQ has at its height.

You just proved how much of a dolt you are with that comment. To judge a game on whether it is good or not based on its subscribers is idiotic. I guess Second Life and Free Realms must be amazing games because they have millions of subscribers!!!

Sorry to tell you this, but game mechanics are what make a game great or not.

Also, your argument about EQ being a time sink only losers play is laughable.

WoW is the biggest damn time sink ever, you fanbois are just blind to it, but allow me to pull the blinders away from your eyes.

In WoW the only way to get good gear is to have all the time in the world to run instance over and over again. Then once you've done that for months and have all your gear you're left standing with your thumb up your arse. WoW's end game content is horrible. But wait!!! Blizzard made  a way to trick you into thinking there is more content and to waste even more time!!!

ACHIEVEMENTS!! YES!!!

Achievements are the biggest time sink ever. All you do is waste countless of hours for a title that is meaningless because everyone and their mother will eventually have it after they too have spent hundreds of hours to complete each retarded task.

The only achievements worth getting are the rare mounts from doing EVERY SINGLE DAMN DUNGEON. But wait, Blizzard even realized that these achievements were so damn easy that they removed those achievements so that they were somewhat rare.

WoW is a cake walk. If you think otherwise you're fooling yourself.

Originally posted by Retrad

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Retrad

MMOs are meant to be social rpgs, hate to burst that buble where you think an MMO is supposed to be a single player with a chat system. It's the reason there are guilds in the game. If it were supposed to be a single player with a chat system then why put in guilds?

Yes, the days of the hardcore game seem to be dying, but DarkFall, Mortal, Earthrise, and Fallen Earth all seem to promise a resurgance to the hardcore days.

 

Says who? MMORPGs are games. Pure and simple. And developers will make it catering to what people want, not what YOU WANT. And I didn't say it is suposed to be a SP game with chat, i am saying i have no problem with that philosophy. The new bioware starwar games seem to be going that direction.

If it is fun, people will play.

Darkfall?? Which is panned by critics? Tell me, how many subscribers does it have now? Sure there are people making more hardcore game. There are always niche games. Even Eve cannot get to 500k people, which is wat EQ has at its height.

 

You just proved how much of a dolt you are with that comment. To judge a game on whether it is good or not based on its subscribers is idiotic. I guess Second Life and Free Realms must be amazing games because they have millions of subscribers!!!

 

Let's judge by reviews then. What is the WOW review scores on gamerankings.com? What is DarkFall's?

I am sure you want to judge by your OWN OPINION but don't be surprise if people don't buy that.

A game is NOT only about mechanics. It is about polish and content too.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

Of course. The game should be fun no matter how i choose to play it. Any excessive downtime, no matter what group i am in, INCLUDING SOLO, is bad design.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

 

Of course. The game should be fun no matter how i choose to play it. Any excessive downtime, no matter what group i am in, INCLUDING SOLO, is bad design.

If you don't play the game design as it was intended that is your own fault. It might be a game design that you do not enjoy but it doesn't make it a bad game design. Not all games have to be the same. You just stated that any game that isn't designed fool proof (any setup will work no matter what, you can't fail) is bad design? I enjoy a little challenge and coming together with others to make a strong group. Loved the fact in EQ seperate we were for the most part weak, together a power to be reckoned with.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

 

Of course. The game should be fun no matter how i choose to play it. Any excessive downtime, no matter what group i am in, INCLUDING SOLO, is bad design.

 

If you don't play the game design as it was intended that is your own fault. It might be a game design that you do not enjoy but it doesn't make it a bad game design. Not all games have to be the same. You just stated that any game that isn't designed fool proof (any setup will work no matter what, you can't fail) is bad design? I enjoy a little challenge and coming together with others to make a strong group. Loved the fact in EQ seperate we were for the most part weak, together a power to be reckoned with.

And a lot of people like SOLO play. So those move to WOW. DItto for those who hate equating time as effort (typical raid/dungeon duration is much more manageable in WOW).

It is silly to talk about FAULT. We are CUSTOMERS. We VOTE with our money. A game has bad design if it is not fun. I am not playing a game to be under someone else's rule. I am choosing a game so that I will be entertained.

If you can't see that is the reality, well, you can sulk all you want about the "good old days". It is not going to come back and I am happy about it.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Calind0r 

You want a sense of accomplishment?

Try killing this after an hour of watching it 1 shot groups of people.

A monster that 1-shots groups of people wouldn't give me a sense of accomplishment to beat.  Because at that point you're just talking about a mob specifically designed to be zerged to death, rather than skillfully attacked and defeated.

I'd probably have fun doing such a fight one time (if it's not overly irritating,) but in general I want my gameplay to focus on tight, interesting fights rather than "spam a bunch of players at this thing and use rudimentary strategy and you'll win."

 

Generally its the opposite. If you have more people he's going to be killing more, and theres a better chance people wont be able to avoid/tank the big attacks. Its done best and fastest with a few small stacked/organized groups, rather than very large ones. Plus theres a scale system that makes the boss easier/harder depending on how many people you have.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

 

Of course. The game should be fun no matter how i choose to play it. Any excessive downtime, no matter what group i am in, INCLUDING SOLO, is bad design.

First off an all mage group does not have much downtime.  If they are a smart group then they do not waste mana and with 6 mages they should be able to take down a steady amount of mobs with no downtime.   Again play the game smart and use your brain.

Second Soloing should come with a disadvanage such as long downtime.  Other wise everyone will solo and only group when it is required.  That is bad game play.   Solo if you want but it should not be as fast or easy as if you have a group.   Its very simple really.

I solo, I group and I raid.  I expect soloing to be slower and harder.  I expect grouping to be faster and easier.  I expect raiding to be hard, very hard and require a ton of problem solving.   I do not think that is too much to ask.

Again I played a Necromancer in EQ1.  I soloed.  I soloed when I felt like soloing but I knew it would be slower then grouping.  (well if you do not count the Fire Tables).   I can solo with my Warrior in EQ1 and have little to no downtime because I know my class and how to play it solo when I want to but again its way slower then grouping which is how it should be.

Think of it this way.   If you are alone and go to paint your house it will take you a lot longer to finish then if you had a group of friends come over and help.   Same should be with gaming.  Solo will take you more time then getting a group of friends together.  

Today's MMO go the oppsite and punish you for grouping.  It is way faster to solo then group.   It prompts soloing.   Again I solo when I feel like soloing but it should never be faster then grouping. PERIOD.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

So you are blaming the game for having a mage heavy group?  Seriously Ever been to the fire tables, it was always all caster groups and we never had downtime but then again most of the people that had access to Fire were smart and understood there classes.  I was a necromancer in EQ1, downtime?  when did I have downtime other then waiting for buffs before a raid started.  I refused to twich caster in my guild because they should be smart enought to know how to use there mana pools.

 

Of course. The game should be fun no matter how i choose to play it. Any excessive downtime, no matter what group i am in, INCLUDING SOLO, is bad design.

 

If you don't play the game design as it was intended that is your own fault. It might be a game design that you do not enjoy but it doesn't make it a bad game design. Not all games have to be the same. You just stated that any game that isn't designed fool proof (any setup will work no matter what, you can't fail) is bad design? I enjoy a little challenge and coming together with others to make a strong group. Loved the fact in EQ seperate we were for the most part weak, together a power to be reckoned with.

And a lot of people like SOLO play. So those move to WOW. DItto for those who hate equating time as effort (typical raid/dungeon duration is much more manageable in WOW).

It is silly to talk about FAULT. We are CUSTOMERS. We VOTE with our money. A game has bad design if it is not fun. I am not playing a game to be under someone else's rule. I am choosing a game so that I will be entertained.

If you can't see that is the reality, well, you can sulk all you want about the "good old days". It is not going to come back and I am happy about it.

Do not kid yourself.  The "good old days" will be back.   Once developer realize that they cannot beat WoW with the same type of game.

WoW is all about how much time you put in game.  More so then any other MMO before it.  The more time you put into WoW the more you get out of WoW.   Seriously.  If you cannot see that then I am sorry your so blind. 

The reason WoW is so successful is because it caters to those that want rewards with no effort.  Effort does not equal time.  WoW is an easy game.  Hense why there are a ton of young kids playing it.  Hense why the Community in general is so childish. 

MMOs are timesinks.  PERIOD.  That is why they charge per month and not per log in.   They want/expect players to play for months if not years.  

Well, I think the majority of people willing to pay for MMOs arent interested in challenges, or overcoming something, accomplishing something etc. etc. unless they can do it straight up because its easy enough.

At least thats what threads like this show blatantly obvious, and entire sections of forums for the easy MMOs prove: People want rewards, and a lot of people hate it when others get rewards they dont (a bit like kids who are always in a bad mood when their sibling has birthday and they dont). So a game which satisfies this by giving everyone a lot of rewards for token effort, and just add on a few excuses for better/more organized/more interested players like hardmodes, which give no tangible reward other than bragging rights and maybe a title, will likely always attract a lot of players.

Because, these people are not actually players. At least not in the sense of player that you use in any other genre. MMORPGs in that case are the missing link between a real game, and interactive TV. A semi-passive entertainment to make you feel good about yourself.

What I am waiting for is for more developer teams to stop trying to please both sides of that fence, the people that just want rewards, and the people that primarily want to play, and chose one. The fact that this doesnt seem to happen is what creates this rift.

The market on both sides is pretty large. Enough to fill it with several games. However, as recent releases show, trying to ape WoW is just resulting in failure anyway.

I dont begrudge people who just want rewards without really playing well their games. I am not happy when a game changes its course drastically (WotLK was such a case for me, SWG NGE another, Mines of Moria a third) with a bait-and-switch, but in the end, I wouldnt mind not having to play with those, so everyone gets their game.

Unfortunately, for years now, games try feeding the reward-only type, and fail. This overemphasis on instant gratification over gameplay is the problem.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Hardcore players have left the Building.... (ps for you who dont know what that means... the Show is over... Paul Barnet last I looked his game  is failing, like all the others who cater to the none hardcore game style....) 

If american Football suddenlty put the Fans out on the field and told the players, hey we have to give the casuals a try, that sport would fail fast... Trust me.. All this talk about  making the games as Dumb down as possiball is destroying the market. And have resulted in one Failed MMO after another.

EVE still going strong after 6 years... still as hardcore as ever. You do the math, when the Industry started to look for casual gamers instead of hardcore once, was the day when all these big budget MMOS started crashing.

LMAO - I loved the play of words!

Originally posted by TdogSkal 

Pug groups in WoW are horriable because players are not forced to learn there class, they can just spam there skills and win.  In EQ Pug groups for the most part were great and I used them alot because players were forced to learn there class.  Learn what they could and could not do.  WoW does not give the players the same kind of training.   WoW does not allow players to make mistakes and learn from them.  

Saying WOW's dungeons are bad isn't really hitting the main issue there.

The failing of WOW's dungeon content isn't that it offers an "easy" difficulty mode, but that the "hard" difficulty mode isn't challenging enough.  When dungeons are too easy, playing your class skillfully becomes unnecessary (hence "spammed abilities" instead of "learn your class".)

Having a game which only offered genuinely hard dungeons would be worse than WOW, as it means you have to suffer the teeth-gnashing of teaching noobs how to play their class constantly.  A good game needs to offer a spread of difficulty options.