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Why Games Aren’t Art, and Hardcore MMO Players Are Yesterday’s News

The MMO Gamer: So then you’re the sort of person who believes that the industry is becoming more bite-sized, casual game focused, as opposed to hardcore AAA title focused?

Paul Barnett: We’re getting more casual players, and wider audiences who are less obsessed with the old-school. You’ve got people who want to have their gaming time defined. “I’ve got half an hour before I’m going out. I know playing this game will only take half an hour,” or “I’ve got to put the kids to bed. I know that if I let them play this game, I can say ‘you’ve got one more level’,” knowing that one more level means 30 minutes and you can get them to bed.

The “I want to do stuff before I go shopping, or before the football’s on.” The “I want to be able to share that information, I want it to be viral. I want to turn up at work and be like ‘Hey, man, I’ve been playing this crazy game. Here, I can beam it straight to your mobile.’”

You know, people who generally don’t have a hardcore computer room can get interested in this idea and understand what it is.

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It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

Hardcore gamers are a minority, this has always been the case and always will be the case. The fact that game publishers and developers are admitting this isn't really surprising.

All genres moved from a hardcore origin to mass market appeal, it has to happen to MMOs too.

The "Hardcore" have not matterd for quite a while.

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

 

It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

This is nothing new. If hardcore was mainstream, it wouldn't be hardcore.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

 

It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

 

This is nothing new. If hardcore was mainstream, it wouldn't be hardcore.

Hardcore players have left the Building.... (ps for you who dont know what that means... the Show is over... Paul Barnet last I looked his game  is failing, like all the others who cater to the none hardcore game style....) 

If american Football suddenlty put the Fans out on the field and told the players, hey we have to give the casuals a try, that sport would fail fast... Trust me.. All this talk about  making the games as Dumb down as possiball is destroying the market. And have resulted in one Failed MMO after another.

EVE still going strong after 6 years... still as hardcore as ever. You do the math, when the Industry started to look for casual gamers instead of hardcore once, was the day when all these big budget MMOS started crashing.

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

Originally posted by GoldenDog

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

 

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

 

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

So you're the person to blame for the failure of the hardcore MMORPG? I knew it. 

The fact is, while you are no longer hardcore, there still are many people who have the time you used to. But their numbers don't matter when compared to the more casual player, and it really shows in current game design. (understandably)

The hardcore era is most certainly dead, and I'm not sure we're not all the better for it.

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

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Why Games Aren’t Art, and Hardcore MMO Players Are Yesterday’s News

 

The MMO Gamer: So then you’re the sort of person who believes that the industry is becoming more bite-sized, casual game focused, as opposed to hardcore AAA title focused?

Paul Barnett: We’re getting more casual players, and wider audiences who are less obsessed with the old-school. You’ve got people who want to have their gaming time defined. “I’ve got half an hour before I’m going out. I know playing this game will only take half an hour,” or “I’ve got to put the kids to bed. I know that if I let them play this game, I can say ‘you’ve got one more level’,” knowing that one more level means 30 minutes and you can get them to bed.

The “I want to do stuff before I go shopping, or before the football’s on.” The “I want to be able to share that information, I want it to be viral. I want to turn up at work and be like ‘Hey, man, I’ve been playing this crazy game. Here, I can beam it straight to your mobile.’”

You know, people who generally don’t have a hardcore computer room can get interested in this idea and understand what it is.

---

 

It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

You're quoting a man who is part of a game that is losing players faster then most in the history of MMOs. The subs plummeted on that game quickly and continue to drop, no one will even talk about WAR in a year or so except to say "Hey remember how bad WAR was". The problem with Paul's (who is a complete idiot everytime he talks" plan of a more casual audience, is that casual players are quicker to leave a game and less likely to be ok with paying $15 bucks a month for a game.

Hardcore isn't over, it's the same as it always is. The reason no hardcore players go to WAR is because there is no way to be hardcore with that game. A couple weeks in you can have a character maxed level and all set with gear. Hardcore players will continue to play games that allow them to be hardcore. Hardcore players are also the spine of the sub numbers for games. A smaller portion of the player base that is steady and long term. That is why those original MMOs (UO, AC, EQ) are still going after 10 years, they captured the hardcore gamers who then stayed with the game for a decade. That's what people forget, the hardcore players stick with a game for a long time, unless another game shows up that is perfect for them to switch to. Since most idiot's like Paul design completly casual games now, the hardcore gamers aren't switching titles. But no hardcore player ever claimed that hardcore players make up the majority, they will always be the minority.

If you're going to design a game for the casual gamer, the best way to go is F2P. Casual gamers won't want to sub month over month for something they may play only here or there. So having a free account that they can buy a couple game items for when they're ready to play some more is really the way to capture them. Unfortunatly for those players, most F2P games haven't gotten a handle on the game store yet to make it appealing to the right audience.

What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period.

If you make a good game then players will play it.  This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. 

MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME.  Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game.

Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle.   Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it.

Perfect example is the Wii.   The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players.   It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles.  

So all you want to be developers out there.  MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by GoldenDog

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

 

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

 

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

 

So you're the person to blame for the failure of the hardcore MMORPG? I knew it. 

The fact is, while you are no longer hardcore, there still are many people who have the time you used to. But their numbers don't matter when compared to the more casual player, and it really shows in current game design. (understandably)

The hardcore era is most certainly dead, and I'm not sure we're not all the better for it.

 

Sadly I'm just like him as well.  I remember back when EQ was new.  Camping the Golden Efreet (hope I spelled that righti t's been a while), for over 14 hours once, just for a shot at the boots.  Now though something like that would be impossible for me.  Even on my off-day I wouldn't have enough time to do it.  Still yet though, even if I had the time.  I wouldn't do it.  Now that I sit back and think about it.  Stuff like that just isn't fun to me now.  Time sinks like camping mobs and rep/gear grinds just don't do it for me anymore.  It was fun the first time around with games like EQ, DAOC, and AO.  Nowadays though, I really won't stick with something that feels like it was designed to be a second job, that I have to pay for.

If that means my hardcore status is revoked so be it.  Lump me in with the "instant-gratification crowd".  I play to have fun, not work another 8 hours a day, with no paycheck.

Originally posted by GoldenDog

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

 

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

 

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

Two hours a day is still fourteen hours a week.

I don't really care anymore, I played EQ for years.

Now, I like casual games because they are ....... FUN ...... and that doesn't include any sort of grind or time-consuming roadblock.

I don't feel any less hardcore because I don't want to spend hours doing the same thing.

BUT, I want them to be challenging. The current games aren't a challenge.

Originally posted by Roin

Originally posted by Kyleran 

 

Sadly I'm just like him as well.  I remember back when EQ was new.  Camping the Golden Efreet (hope I spelled that righti t's been a while), for over 14 hours once, just for a shot at the boots.  Now though something like that would be impossible for me.  Even on my off-day I wouldn't have enough time to do it.  Still yet though, even if I had the time.  I wouldn't do it.  Now that I sit back and think about it.  Stuff like that just isn't fun to me now.  Time sinks like camping mobs and rep/gear grinds just don't do it for me anymore.  It was fun the first time around with games like EQ, DAOC, and AO.  Nowadays though, I really won't stick with something that feels like it was designed to be a second job, that I have to pay for.

If that means my hardcore status is revoked so be it.  Lump me in with the "instant-gratification crowd".  I play to have fun, not work another 8 hours a day, with no paycheck.

Sitting in place for 14 hours didn't make you hardcore in the first place, honestly it made you kind of foolish. A time sink for no other purpose then a time sink doesn't make the game hardcore, and it's a sad generalization that casual players make, the hardcore = sitting on my ass for 12 hours a day and not having a life.

Casual players try and make the same point over and over, that if you play video games for 2 hours in a stretch you suddenly need to get a life and responsibilities. But don't point out that they watch movies that are longer then 2 hours.

What makes a game ridiculous is exactly your last statement, instant gratification. If I can level a character to max level in 2 weeks, then there is no point in paying for a month, I'm done in 2 weeks. I want a game with substance, that your character takes work and grows. I want there to be penalties when you screw up and die which adds the extra excitement everytime you almost do die. I want dungeons and quests to be DIFFICULT, where did that go? Why do all current games have every quest be a 5-10 minute easy mode style that isn't interesting at all. So should I not play a game like that because in the course of a week I can only get on for a couple hours? Yes I still should, because there will always be something to do and something fun to do.

There is a big difference between a challenging involved game and a sit there and be bored time sink. Not even the hardcore players should waste time on something that is made specifically to eat up time with little to no reward. But all people need to get over the "I need to be max level now, even though I've only played this character a total of 10 hours" mentality and enjoy the trip to the top.

Like Paul Burnett is a shining example of a man who knows the gaming industry or even his own customers.

OP, at least find someone credible who isn't a bag of hot air past their prime to quote next time you try to "prove" a point.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period.

If you make a good game then players will play it.  This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. 

MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME.  Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game.

Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle.   Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it.

Perfect example is the Wii.   The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players.   It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles.  

So all you want to be developers out there.  MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.

 

Im sorry but the wii is NOT a game! It is a gimmick. I would rather shove several huge pine cones up my ass than play anything that makes you jump around like a little girl with her tits on fire. Gimme a break! When I went over to my friends house after he called me to come check out his wii, I was so embarassed. He looked like a little teeny bopper faggot jumping around and squealing like he was. I cussed him out and told him he was an idiot. Since then he is no longer on my friend list. If that is what casual gaming has become Count me out! I hate the casual market and NO I wouldn't consider myself hardcore but todays mmo games are all pretty much pieces of crap! (Thanks a lot Blizzard) I was about to give up on mmo's forever and the only things that have kept me playing is Vanguard and EVE online!  Phhhht The Wii ..................... omg give me a break. That's just gay
 

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

 

It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

 

This is nothing new. If hardcore was mainstream, it wouldn't be hardcore.

 

Hardcore players have left the Building.... (ps for you who dont know what that means... the Show is over... Paul Barnet last I looked his game  is failing, like all the others who cater to the none hardcore game style....) 

If american Football suddenlty put the Fans out on the field and told the players, hey we have to give the casuals a try, that sport would fail fast... Trust me.. All this talk about  making the games as Dumb down as possiball is destroying the market. And have resulted in one Failed MMO after another.

EVE still going strong after 6 years... still as hardcore as ever. You do the math, when the Industry started to look for casual gamers instead of hardcore once, was the day when all these big budget MMOS started crashing.

I always find it funny when people say that EVE is hardcore.  Yes it is full loot pvp... so it has some hardcore elements but in terms of time, it is the most casual light MMO ever.  I mean, how many other games can you get better/more skilled at when you are not even logged on.  Log on once a week, set you skills and voila I'm getting better.  Sheesh.

Venge Sunsoar

The hardcore has never mattered, since the definition of who is Hardcore is self defined.... Any ADHD kid borrowing his dads compooter can say he is the most hardcore player in the universe, because he did a raid once. To tell the market, the developers and the huge companies to listen to some self proclaimed elite and follow their subjective and highly dubious ideas? That would be like telling Mensa to change the rules and let anyone have entry just because "their mom said they were special"

I remember when I played the first Railroad Tycoon for 5 days in a row with little to no sleep.... After five days a friend called me and asked if I wanted to go out and have a few beers. So we went to a club.. I got a bit drunk and incredibly sleep deprived. Suddenly, on the dnace floor, I begin to see all the people dancing as locomotives and cargo carriers and feeling my head implode as I started to organize their schedule.... Aaaah, those were the days. Is that hardcore? Not a godamn bit, its fukkin idiotic and probably incredibly unhealthy. But if I was some sad ADHD kid on his dads pooter, I would probably be on the soap box yelling to high heaven how elite I was.

They have never mattered, except in their own heads.

Hardcore gamers have been bitching and moaning on how developers are not creating games to suite their taste.

The reason for the lack of "hardcore games" is because developers are not even bothers to develop such games in the first place.

Do you realise, that person you're quoting, although he's got quite a funny quirky personality, which I like, he has no idea. His game sucked, it's failing. Before WAR, we were told, and they emphasized how great the "large battles", and seiging keeps outdoor would be. Then when it came out, it was just Instance Instance Instance, in their scenario rubbish or whatever they called it.

First let me get this streight, I'm what would be considered a "hardcore gamer" I suppose.
However, I don't like it at all when people define hardcore games as "sitting for 6 hours in an instanced raid". Right, I'm harcore - But I hate instances. I really really hate them. Now, I'm not going to blab on about how it ruins persistance, and how it detracts from the meaning of MMO, because that's not what this thread is about.

I'm going to say, that even though I'm "hardcore" *bangs fist on chest twice. lmao*, I hate any kind of game mechanic that forces you to play for multiple hours without stopping inbetween (Yes, I said "forces", because I don't skip content, I honestly do change my "daily routines"  for games).

Now, don't get me wrong here. It should take a fair bit of time to achieve big goals, ofcourse it should. Why the heck shouldn't it? But what it should NOT do, is make you play a few hours in a row to achieve it. I should be able to allocate my game-time whenever I want, not be limited by a game mechanic that doesn't allow me to.

This is another thing that sucks about instancing, is tells you how to play your game. You HAVE to play it like this. No. Achieving goals should most definately take time, it just shouldn't force you to use that time in massive chunks. Instancing is the bane of MMOs I'm telling you, why developers keep churning out the same fucking instanced shit, I don't know.

Because the current instanced dungeon crawling crap today, for some reason it calls its self casual if the drop rates for items are high. No, it's still not casual because you're making people play multiple hours at a time.

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Originally posted by Roin

Originally posted by Kyleran 

 

Sadly I'm just like him as well.  I remember back when EQ was new.  Camping the Golden Efreet (hope I spelled that righti t's been a while), for over 14 hours once, just for a shot at the boots.  Now though something like that would be impossible for me.  Even on my off-day I wouldn't have enough time to do it.  Still yet though, even if I had the time.  I wouldn't do it.  Now that I sit back and think about it.  Stuff like that just isn't fun to me now.  Time sinks like camping mobs and rep/gear grinds just don't do it for me anymore.  It was fun the first time around with games like EQ, DAOC, and AO.  Nowadays though, I really won't stick with something that feels like it was designed to be a second job, that I have to pay for.

If that means my hardcore status is revoked so be it.  Lump me in with the "instant-gratification crowd".  I play to have fun, not work another 8 hours a day, with no paycheck.

 

Sitting in place for 14 hours didn't make you hardcore in the first place, honestly it made you kind of foolish. A time sink for no other purpose then a time sink doesn't make the game hardcore, and it's a sad generalization that casual players make, the hardcore = sitting on my ass for 12 hours a day and not having a life.

Casual players try and make the same point over and over, that if you play video games for 2 hours in a stretch you suddenly need to get a life and responsibilities. But don't point out that they watch movies that are longer then 2 hours.

 

What makes a game ridiculous is exactly your last statement, instant gratification. If I can level a character to max level in 2 weeks, then there is no point in paying for a month, I'm done in 2 weeks. I want a game with substance, that your character takes work and grows. I want there to be penalties when you screw up and die which adds the extra excitement everytime you almost do die. I want dungeons and quests to be DIFFICULT, where did that go? Why do all current games have every quest be a 5-10 minute easy mode style that isn't interesting at all. So should I not play a game like that because in the course of a week I can only get on for a couple hours? Yes I still should, because there will always be something to do and something fun to do.

 

There is a big difference between a challenging involved game and a sit there and be bored time sink. Not even the hardcore players should waste time on something that is made specifically to eat up time with little to no reward. But all people need to get over the "I need to be max level now, even though I've only played this character a total of 10 hours" mentality and enjoy the trip to the top.

This is my definition of a hardcore gamer...
 

So glad I'm not one.