Originally posted by Xasapis

The grind is not strictly associated with repeatedly killing mobs. "Daily quest grind" ring any bells?

I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing.  This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.

Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level.  Period.  Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.

I laugh every time i hear someone complain about grinds in MMO's. The more games cater to the instant gratification crowd the more people seem to cry about grinding in MMO's. I honestly think if a game came out of the box with a max lvl character some people would complain that they want two. The entire point of an MMO is to keep you playing it. If you complete all the content in a month whay would you resub? The lousy thing is that games have opted for forced time sinks like one week lockouts and such rather than make something difficult enough that you cant do it in a month. Most MMO's you can get to max lvl in a week if you try and know the ropes. My first MMO, EQ took me over 6 months and I played every day almost.

I think it's a waste of time to even have levels in games anymore; you level so fast its meaningless. The lower lvl zones go pretty much unused in most games now.

Originally posted by otheron3

The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination.

I really can't stand the term.

What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks".   That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc.

Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played.   I hated that personally.

Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills.    While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels.   I loved just playing the game.  It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so.

It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used.      Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink.

If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink.   Once the time sink is over, so is the game.   Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't.   "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like.     In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing.

-Other

Grinding is repeating the same thing over and over. It is of course also a time sink if you prefer that term.

The reason for it is that devs are lazy and make boring repeative tasks and quests instead of inventing funnier things.

Kill 20 rats is a typical grind quest, or being forced to craft a lot of worthless things that you vendortrash so you can raise your crafting skill a little. The game can ofcourse also have most content at the end and forcing you to kill mobs in loads to level up so you can hit the good content.

I want to have fun, not do the same thing 300 times to raise something slightly, so I can do stuff like create something my character can use or whatever.

And just because I don't like grinding in a game doesn't mean that I don't like other parts of the game. It is like going on vacation, the travel in itself is often boring but the time there is fun. I like drinking Guiness but I don't like hangovers. I don't like all songs of my favorite musicians either.

As I see it, it is possible to make a MMO that is interesting just for the sake of playing it, Guildwars is doing this rather well, but not perfect. Cut out the boring parts and make stuff like crafting and quests fun, like in Neverwinter nights by Bioware, no grinding there and I played it for months anyways.

I dont want to repeat the same boring thing over and over, I already do that for 37 hours a week, it is called "work".

I've given up mostly on MMOs in the regard to grind/not grind and all the crap that gets flung about.

More specifically, I've just gotten bored of most of them.

How does this apply to the situation? Because you need to relate the situation, as all other things do, to the individuals it regards and the preferences they have. Grind has definitely changed in meaning to encompass many trivial aspects, that doesn't remove the fact that people are in fact complaining.

The problem in and of itself is how the time sinks are implemented. More often than not it's not an issue directly of what the task at hand is so much as how long it's taking to reach the end. This is a fault more of the desire than it is the task, and the solution isn't to simply throw the reward at people.

I personally think it'd be better to have something of a sliding scale to progress that isn't so easily trackable, and give people more rewards in terms of nonlinear progression. That way people have things to work towards, but it's not perceived as vital like leveling up and running raids over and over for gear is. That way the focus of the player isn't on what they want to 'get' so much as what they want to 'do' again.

Or that's the problem in a nutshell. MMOs have a bad habit of not having good implementation of  'getting' things and 'doing' things that result in people's pretty much undivided attention on the light at the end of the tunnel rather than what's around them.

Originally posted by otheron3

You are quoting me out of context   I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey.   See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread.

"The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination."

 It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion.

That is the difference. 

Cheers -Other

The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.

Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.

If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Xasapis

The grind is not strictly associated with repeatedly killing mobs. "Daily quest grind" ring any bells?

 

I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing.  This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.

Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level.  Period.  Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.

QFT!!!!

Originally posted by vidiotking

Originally posted by otheron3

You are quoting me out of context   I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey.   See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread.

"The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination."

 It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion.

That is the difference. 

Cheers -Other

 

The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.

Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.

If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?

 

You make a great point of a multipurpose. I have fun grinding for 5 days straight, then I get a headache for all that leveling, but yeah, if you don't bite the bullet, the bullet will bite you and you'll just giveu p.

Originally posted by otheron3

The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination.

I really can't stand the term.

What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks".   That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc.

Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played.   I hated that personally.

Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills.    While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels.   I loved just playing the game.  It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so.

It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used.      Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink.

If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink.   Once the time sink is over, so is the game.   Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't.   "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like.     In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing.

-Other

I agree with you...

Grind, to most players, is the time taken to hix maxed level. Those players are looking all wrong at a game and should (IMO) get the first FPS and play there (and still they'll complain about gear, skills and the alike).

Since you play an MMORPG, you should be 'kept busy' in the game. Go from one quest to an other. Kill monsters along the way, and explore the world (and lore) around you. That's the aim of an MMORPG for me. Add some PvP along the way and I'm happe.

It comes to grinding, when you've done all quests for your level, and can't explore more than the area you're currently at. A good example is Twelve Sky 2. I was in the CB (and ditched it real fast), because you get only 1 or 2 quests on your level, and when they're done, you're not even halfway the level. You must kill monsters around to get to the next level and get an new single quest. If the XP from the monsters was high, then there's no problem, but the XP was so extremely low that after 1 hour, boredom was there...

Lineage II, as in your example, does have some grind... There are enough quests to take you from level to level, and with the new vitality system, you level even faster with the quests. Good thing in Lineage II is the huge amount of repeatable / ongoing quests (coins, gems, ore to name a few). You're free to keep doing them till you're bored, and when you get bored with one (too long in one area), you just hop to the other one.
In the mean time, your clan will do a siege, kill raids, have PvP, so you're always busy...

back to topic... Grind..? Used in a wrong way most often, then again, players should not focus on maxing out ASAP, because if that's your focus, then every MMO is a grind...

Time for a wrench and a clarification.

If we define "entertainment" as "the focus of the fixation of your attention", then we can conclude two things:

a) From the 5 pages of definition argumenta: You folks are entertained by discussing definitions

b) A grind cannot be non-entertaining by the above definition. If you are experiencing it, you are entertained.

Note well that "entertainment" as defined above has nothing to do with "fun". This brings me to my clarification.

The real problem with most MMORPGs today is can be summarized like this: Game designers are asked to design so X amount of hours will be spent to get to goal Y. This mindset is the single root cause of most of the problems players complain about, and it is completely unworkable. If that mindset is used or entertained (above definition) while designing a game, you get time sinks, imbalanced reward vs effort phenomena when people do things faster than devs expected, social cooperation to minimize time sinks (twinking, power levelling), and ultimately players perceiving this design goal at some level and being disenfranchised.

If devs want people to spend time on their game, they have to make the game something someone would spend time on. The very attempt to sink time is perceivable and causes a negative reaction in most gamers when perceived. The word gamers have chosen for this is "grind".

If you contend "grind" is a subjective word, then the above is my definition. If you want to contend it is an objective word, then I submit the above as a clearer definition of the word.

As a digression, about designing games, Its a lot like the sax player who, before going professional, decides to go play on the street in some big city with his or her case open for tips and refuses to go professional till he or she can gather a crowd and make $100 in tips in an hour.  Ideally, the game devs should have trouble making progress on their game because they are playing it too much. Creating a game takes a focus on fun, not a focus on time sinks. If you amortize your fun over time because your business people have demanded that you ensure that they have to play X hours to experience the entire game, you aren't focusing on fun.

Admittedly some people do like to repeat the same thing over and over again, as evidenced by the popularity of the "asian grind fest". I contend that the technology is almost there to create a world where many types of gamers (including the grinders) can have fun. It will take some time before the "get rich quick/make money fast" business people get far enough OUT of the industry before anyone will be able to undertake such an effort and be at low enough risk from financial hijacking that they actually might finish.

Originally posted by daktar

Time for a wrench and a clarification.

If we define "entertainment" as "the focus of the fixation of your attention", then we can conclude two things:

a) From the 5 pages of definition argumenta: You folks are entertained by discussing definitions

b) A grind cannot be non-entertaining by the above definition. If you are experiencing it, you are entertained.

Note well that "entertainment" as defined above has nothing to do with "fun". This brings me to my clarification.

The real problem with most MMORPGs today is can be summarized like this: Game designers are asked to design so X amount of hours will be spent to get to goal Y. This mindset is the single root cause of most of the problems players complain about, and it is completely unworkable. If that mindset is used or entertained (above definition) while designing a game, you get time sinks, imbalanced reward vs effort phenomena when people do things faster than devs expected, social cooperation to minimize time sinks (twinking, power levelling), and ultimately players perceiving this design goal at some level and being disenfranchised.

If devs want people to spend time on their game, they have to make the game something someone would spend time on. The very attempt to sink time is perceivable and causes a negative reaction in most gamers when perceived. The word gamers have chosen for this is "grind".

If you contend "grind" is a subjective word, then the above is my definition. If you want to contend it is an objective word, then I submit the above as a clearer definition of the word.

As a digression, about designing games, Its a lot like the sax player who, before going professional, decides to go play on the street in some big city with his or her case open for tips and refuses to go professional till he or she can gather a crowd and make $100 in tips in an hour.  Ideally, the game devs should have trouble making progress on their game because they are playing it too much. Creating a game takes a focus on fun, not a focus on time sinks. If you amortize your fun over time because your business people have demanded that you ensure that they have to play X hours to experience the entire game, you aren't focusing on fun.

Admittedly some people do like to repeat the same thing over and over again, as evidenced by the popularity of the "asian grind fest". I contend that the technology is almost there to create a world where many types of gamers (including the grinders) can have fun. It will take some time before the "get rich quick/make money fast" business people get far enough OUT of the industry before anyone will be able to undertake such an effort and be at low enough risk from financial hijacking that they actually might finish.

While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature.  The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it.  I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others,  is overused.  

Originally posted by kiddyno071 

While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature.  The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it.  I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others,  is overused.  

I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over? 

As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles. :)

Originally posted by daktar

Originally posted by kiddyno071 

While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature.  The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it.  I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others,  is overused.  

 

I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over? 

As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles. :)

Yes and yes, if you were to read my full post you would see that I speak to the use of the word "grind" in both subjective and objective depending on someone’s point of view. As I feel that there are many post of this nature I choose not to "beat a dead horse". I will, however, expand on my last statement and explain my rational behind it. I feel that words like "grind", "time sink", "care bear", "sandbox", etc are words that are overused... and when words are overused they begin to lose the spirit of their true origin and meaning; which in turn leads to an evolution, as I have seen, to the negative. Case in point, "grind", from what I have seen many a reader immediately takes it to mean mindless repetitive actions and they in turn use this as a reason to not engage in meaningful forums discussion, but to "flame a game". And while I would agree that there are games that fall into this category I would challenge folks to look differently at the word "grind" and its use to mean much more.

Oh, btw anything I write is art (in my own mind) :)
 

I really hate it when people say "this is nothing but a grind" when they are doing quests. To many people want to jump in, be the max lvl within days, and then go pvp or farm for high lvl items. They want to skip everything and jump right to the end. The game is supposed to be fun getting to the end, and if you only think of the quests as grinding then I really cant imagen that you would enjoy playing any MMO.

Originally posted by phknight

I really hate it when people say "this is nothing but a grind" when they are doing quests. To many people want to jump in, be the max lvl within days, and then go pvp or farm for high lvl items. They want to skip everything and jump right to the end. The game is supposed to be fun getting to the end, and if you only think of the quests as grinding then I really cant imagen that you would enjoy playing any MMO.

Ahaaaaa! (Cue the harps and angels signing ) Amen!   I don;t think I could put it any better.