Originally posted by qombi

... 

If you were smart you wouldn't support P2P games with items shops in them. You know what? In the past your wife would have had that virtual gear in game but since they added an item shop "to enhance" gameplay it will be put there instead. Item shops do affect the game for everyone. Why would the devs give out the same amount of content for the included sub price as they did in the past when they have a shiny little item shop to put a lot of the items in? If people would think they would remember a time when SOE put out two expansion packs a year but now are putting out maybe one a year with even worse content than one of the two in the past. They could have been putting that "fluff" items to be obtained in game but they were too busy making that item shop to do that.

Very ugly way of double barrelled discussion, adding an insult to the ugly way of speech.

He is either smart and support you, or disagree with you and is not smart.  So either way he is wrong and you are right.  Qombi, you are about the least ethical person on earth, calling people unsmart while putting up a double barrel.

Qombi, if you are smart you should shut up, you are a liar.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by qombi

Poorly designed game or the person that bought the game is playing the wrong game for them. Move along to a game that is fun all the way through. I believe it does not make sense. Why pay a developer extra money because parts of their game is unfun? These are games that are meant to be played for fun. If something is so unfun that you feel the need to swipe a credit card to bypass it, it's time to move along. 

Wait... if the game is designed around buying items to enhance the fun and the player finds it fun to buy the items....

 

...then how is that the wrong game for that person?

I am speaking of P2P games trying to force item shops on people. I wasn't speaking of the casino games/ real life money games that F2P games are. I have always avoided them anyhow.

whatever game it is Lynx is right.
 

He who has the money and willing to spend it can do it so long as it is within the brackets of law.  Jealousy from your QQs only shows "sour grape" tears.  If you do not want to pay, go play something else.

Thousands of people pay money online to change the look of their icons in chatrooms.  Thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to download odd sound waves and songs for their mobiles.  Thousands ... .  What do I mean to say?

NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.  MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

For all those crusaders who keeps raising the banner of fairness, may I ask

(1) Whose standard of fairness is fair, yours or mine?

(2) Why is fairness the standard for judging games, do you play for fairness, or fun?

(3) Why do you need me to play in your perceived standard of fairness, what if I want to play a game in the way I want?

You can refuse to play a game you do not like, on any ground.  You can tell me why you do not like it.  That is it.  Stop there.  Pushing further, as if your idea is the truth and binding, and we should all rally behind you, is pathetic dilusive self grandeur.  Enough people already tells you they do not care about your views.  Not that you are wrong, but that your views stops in front of your monitor, it does not reach out to them.

Simply put, your argument is not convincing.

Originally posted by Orthedos

For all those crusaders who keeps raising the banner of fairness, may I ask

(1) Whose standard of fairness is fair, yours or mine?

(2) Why is fairness the standard for judging games, do you play for fairness, or fun?

(3) Why do you need me to play in your perceived standard of fairness, what if I want to play a game in the way I want?

You can refuse to play a game you do not like, on any ground.  You can tell me why you do not like it.  That is it.  Stop there.  Pushing further, as if your idea is the truth and binding, and we should all rally behind you, is pathetic dilusive self grandeur.  Enough people already tells you they do not care about your views.  Not that you are wrong, but that your views stops in front of your monitor, it does not reach out to them.

Simply put, your argument is not convincing.

You seem to talk about fairness and fun as if they are mutually exclusive.  I don't think they are.  I think they go together.
 

For example, is it fair in a hockey game if one goalie is allowed to wear oversized pads?  No, it's not.  Why not?  Because his or her team will have an advantage over the opposing team.  Their opponents are less likely to score.  It's not fair because it's not a level playing field.  How much fun do you think it would be for the goalie and team with the regular sized pads?  Probably not nearly as fun as it would be for the team with the advantage.

How does this relate to RMT?  In some games, they'll sell oversized pads (performance enhancing loot or buffs) through their item shop.  If you pay the extra cash, you get an advantage.  It's no longer a level playing field.  Oh you can level it up if you want, but then you have to pay more money.  Now the developer can toy with people and bleed them dry in a virtual arms race.  Is that fun?  Maybe for the developer.  It's less likely to be fun for the gamers who have fallen behind on the virtual loot, or for all of the gamers sucked into the arms race when they inevitably get the Visa bill.

This of course is only relevant if the RMT items are performance enhancing.  I can think of games that have this, and I avoid them for this reason.  On the other hand, I've played and enjoyed games that offered RMT items that were not in any way performance enhancing.  The RMT content is entirely optional.  It's more about fashion and fun than remaining competitive.

That kind of RMT does not create imbalances in the game.  It also does not engineer and exploit those imbalances to fleece gamers.

Originally posted by bustaj

Well the fact of the matter is that we all have the same amount of time in a day.  No one has a 55 hour day and it's up to us to utilize our time how we see fit.  I see a lot of times people justify breaking the rules of the game by buying gold (not here necessarily) with the fact that they do not have the time to play the game.  In actuality you do, you just did something else while your friend, foe, spouse whoever was playing and they got ahead.  They do not have more time, they used it differently.  Now this is where I have big issues. Not only have these people broken the clearly stated rules of the game but they have also trivialized the time by putting a money value to it.  I get enough of that in real life and now you have to bring it into the dang game.... I guess they feel entitled this since they have the money and they feel that their time was more important. Trivializing the game just because some people have more time allocated for gaming than you do.

<snip>

I also do not think it's unfair that my friends have gained a 20 level lead on me.  I feel this way because I know if I  put the same time into the game I will be where they are now (more or less) and If I put more time in I'll catch up eventually.  

I do have one question though for the people who want RMT for the reason I said above.

Did you gain anything while everyone else was playing the game? 

I would disagree on the point of we all have the same time in a day and it's how we choose to spend it.  I don't know where you are in life, but at least to me, the older you get, the more your time is spoken.  When I was in high school, I had most evenings free, weekends, and all summer.  When I was in college, there was tons of time unless it was near exams.  When I got married, I also had a job to pay for my house along with spending time with my wife.  As my responsibility grew with children, their needs intruded on the time that I had.

Yes, we all have 24 hours in a day.  However, the amount of disposable time that we recieve differs vastly.  This is no different than each of us having differing amounts of cash to spend on our entertainment.  I personally think it's unfair that you can play for 8 hours a day while I have other responsibilities that have to be met if my family is going to have a roof over their head and food on the table.  I don't choose to work over play, I have to work over play.

Frankly those people trivialize anything that I will ever do and their limitless time creates an unfair gulf that I can not catch up.  Because for how ever many hours I put in, they will be putting in 4x those hours.

You can argue that people have the same ability to earn money and choose to play games instead.  Both time and money are limited comodoties for most people.  True, there is less varriance in time and the caps are much harder, but in practice, both are completely limited, and both affect your game experience.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

For example, is it fair in a hockey game if one goalie is allowed to wear oversized pads?  No, it's not.  Why not?  Because his or her team will have an advantage over the opposing team.  Their opponents are less likely to score.  It's not fair because it's not a level playing field.  How much fun do you think it would be for the goalie and team with the regular sized pads?  Probably not nearly as fun as it would be for the team with the advantage.

How does this relate to RMT?  In some games, they'll sell oversized pads (performance enhancing loot or buffs) through their item shop.  If you pay the extra cash, you get an advantage.  It's no longer a level playing field.  Oh you can level it up if you want, but then you have to pay more money.  Now the developer can toy with people and bleed them dry in a virtual arms race.  Is that fun?  Maybe for the developer.  It's less likely to be fun for the gamers who have fallen behind on the virtual loot, or for all of the gamers sucked into the arms race when they inevitably get the Visa bill.

Sure, buying performance items creates imbalance, we don't all have the same amount of money to spend.  However, if the other hockey team is allowed to play an extra 15 minutes after the first, the game is no less fair.  Sure you can play hard for the same three periods, but no matter what you do, they get the extra 15 minutes.  How fair is that?

Originally posted by bustaj

I'm ok with RMT as long as it's cosmetic stuff or services like character transfer etc...  Everything else I really do not like. 

I play MMORPGs to get away from the real world.  I love the stories, I like my avatar, I like the fact that my persona that I project onto that avatar effects the community and in essence the game world.  Above everything I have been put onto an even playing field as everyone else which in turn allows me to be things I may not be able to be in the real world. I think that it's even because if someone does this certain quest and gets a reward, I can do the same quest and get the same reward albeit exp, currency, items etc... The outside world does not truly effect the game at all. Money does/should not effect this aspect of the game. The only real determining factor on when I get a level up or finish a quest or anything is the amount of time I put into it.   And here we are, the real core of the issue concerning RMT.  Should someone have the right to spend cash to gain ground, catch up, or dare I say become superior to someone else?  Thinking about it, it depends on the game itself.  If the game was made with a cash shop in mind, and only the best stuff can be bought then fine so be it.  That's the rules of that game so spend to win.  If it has more of the rules like WoW then heck no.  Those are definitely not the rules and should be kicked out for breaking them.

You are probably thinking, what does this have to do with time right? =P

Well the fact of the matter is that we all have the same amount of time in a day.  No one has a 55 hour day and it's up to us to utilize our time how we see fit.  I see a lot of times people justify breaking the rules of the game by buying gold (not here necessarily) with the fact that they do not have the time to play the game.  In actuality you do, you just did something else while your friend, foe, spouse whoever was playing and they got ahead.  They do not have more time, they used it differently.  Now this is where I have big issues. Not only have these people broken the clearly stated rules of the game but they have also trivialized the time by putting a money value to it.  I get enough of that in real life and now you have to bring it into the dang game.... I guess they feel entitled this since they have the money and they feel that their time was more important. Trivializing the game just because some people have more time allocated for gaming than you do.

Whats the point in playing monopoly and starting with the same amount of play money and starting on go, if I can pass a real 5 to the banker to give me all the good property? Trivializing the whole game and making it only about the real world and not the game.

I have never been "l33t", I have barely ever raided. Heck I suck at PVP in general as well lol.  I do not think it's unfair that someone has the "blazing sword of extreme awesomeness" that  looks 3 times the size if their avatars body and can easily 3 hit someone.  I also do not think it's unfair that my friends have gained a 20 level lead on me.  I feel this way because I know if I  put the same time into the game I will be where they are now (more or less) and If I put more time in I'll catch up eventually.  I'm glad I play this way because now I do get a slight sense of accomplishment and I have met and interacted with new people playing my own little story.

This is just how I feel about the whole matter.  I know that some people do not feel or play the same way.  That's fine I suppose, I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the matter.  You can agree or disagree, thats fine as well but it won't change my mind =P. 

I do have one question though for the people who want RMT for the reason I said above.

Did you gain anything while everyone else was playing the game? 

TL;DR

I feel it's fair that someone has gotten ahead of me because they have probably put more time into the game than I have. I feel it's unfair that someone trivializes someone else's time using money to catch up though.

Very good read. I enjoyed it. : D

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by qombi

Poorly designed game or the person that bought the game is playing the wrong game for them. Move along to a game that is fun all the way through. I believe it does not make sense. Why pay a developer extra money because parts of their game is unfun? These are games that are meant to be played for fun. If something is so unfun that you feel the need to swipe a credit card to bypass it, it's time to move along. 

Wait... if the game is designed around buying items to enhance the fun and the player finds it fun to buy the items....

 

...then how is that the wrong game for that person?

I am speaking of P2P games trying to force item shops on people. I wasn't speaking of the casino games/ real life money games that F2P games are. I have always avoided them anyhow.

whatever game it is Lynx is right.
 

He who has the money and willing to spend it can do it so long as it is within the brackets of law.  Jealousy from your QQs only shows "sour grape" tears.  If you do not want to pay, go play something else.

Thousands of people pay money online to change the look of their icons in chatrooms.  Thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to download odd sound waves and songs for their mobiles.  Thousands ... .  What do I mean to say?

NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.  MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

You are taking this too personal. I am not angry. If you think this is about jealousy then you I am afraid have missed the whole reason people play games. The fact is you are arguing for RMT because of jealousy of others. I myself find RMT a disgusting perversion on rpg gaming because it goes against what gaming is. Games are meant to be enjoyed by playing them. Swiping a credit card for items isn't playing a game. If a game is good then you enjoy being in the world playing it. If a game is bad you do not. Buying items with a credit card can never buy you what others get from playing the game and that is the experience of playing the game. That is ultimately what you are paying for the experience of playing the game.

If it was not then it wouldn't be called a game. Buying items online doesn't equal a game or game content. That is a lazy way for a developer to make money. Making fun content to be played is what a game is. All the things you mention below are not classified as games.  Unlike you I do just that, if I find a game unfun I quit it. I no longer support them with my money. A game adds an item shop that I am playing, I quit. I no longer want the product. If you were smart you would see that if a game design isn't for you then you move to one that is fun and for you. Giving developers money for virtual pixels to bypass their game content isn't the answer. The answer would be to find that game that you find fun without having to bypass the content.

Originally posted by bstripp

Originally posted by bustaj

Well the fact of the matter is that we all have the same amount of time in a day.  No one has a 55 hour day and it's up to us to utilize our time how we see fit.  I see a lot of times people justify breaking the rules of the game by buying gold (not here necessarily) with the fact that they do not have the time to play the game.  In actuality you do, you just did something else while your friend, foe, spouse whoever was playing and they got ahead.  They do not have more time, they used it differently.  Now this is where I have big issues. Not only have these people broken the clearly stated rules of the game but they have also trivialized the time by putting a money value to it.  I get enough of that in real life and now you have to bring it into the dang game.... I guess they feel entitled this since they have the money and they feel that their time was more important. Trivializing the game just because some people have more time allocated for gaming than you do.

<snip>

I also do not think it's unfair that my friends have gained a 20 level lead on me.  I feel this way because I know if I  put the same time into the game I will be where they are now (more or less) and If I put more time in I'll catch up eventually.  

I do have one question though for the people who want RMT for the reason I said above.

Did you gain anything while everyone else was playing the game? 

I would disagree on the point of we all have the same time in a day and it's how we choose to spend it.  I don't know where you are in life, but at least to me, the older you get, the more your time is spoken.  When I was in high school, I had most evenings free, weekends, and all summer.  When I was in college, there was tons of time unless it was near exams.  When I got married, I also had a job to pay for my house along with spending time with my wife.  As my responsibility grew with children, their needs intruded on the time that I had.

Yes, we all have 24 hours in a day.  However, the amount of disposable time that we recieve differs vastly.  This is no different than each of us having differing amounts of cash to spend on our entertainment.  I personally think it's unfair that you can play for 8 hours a day while I have other responsibilities that have to be met if my family is going to have a roof over their head and food on the table.  I don't choose to work over play, I have to work over play.

Frankly those people trivialize anything that I will ever do and their limitless time creates an unfair gulf that I can not catch up.  Because for how ever many hours I put in, they will be putting in 4x those hours.

You can argue that people have the same ability to earn money and choose to play games instead.  Both time and money are limited comodoties for most people.  True, there is less varriance in time and the caps are much harder, but in practice, both are completely limited, and both affect your game experience.

It still does not refute my point.  It's all choices.  You chose to get married and have children..... some people did not. Some work different hours of the day, some work varying hours, some have 2 jobs!  Some are punk kids that do not know any better and some are just elitist jerks.  Does that make it ok to trivialize everyone else game with money?  All because they have more time to actually play game than you.  Also I still think it's fair still because if you did the exact same things in the same amount of time that the other people did you get the exact same rewards.  It becomes a matter of when and not if.  Which leads me to believe that you want to shortcut the game in order to get it all now.  Like my monopoly analogy.  You do not want to really play, you want to be the best now.

Honestly, you want to throw other players to the wind just because they can play more?  Yes they play more, yes they are ahead yes they probably do not have as much responsibility than you, but for goodness sake they played the game more than you, why shouldn't they be ahead?

Let me give you another example although a little extreme.  You and your co worker  put in a regular day but your coworker decides he is going to work extra and you go home to do whatever, or you go pay bills or something.  2 weeks go by and you co worker comments on how much in overtime he made.  Would you go to you boss and try to leverage a way of getting extra pay like your co worker?  He did more time than you, he deserves his extra pay.  He may have had less responsibility therefore more time to stay at work but does that entitle you to same amount of pay as him even though he may not have a wife and kids to provide for and you do?

I know I know, we are talking about a game but should we "bend the rules" just because it is?

Now, I never said that all RMT should die. I realise people feel the same as you and they should be able to spend to make up for time because that's fun for them i suppose.  I hate the people that buy gold in games not set up for that kind of play.  Like I said they are breaking the rules and trivializing time put in.  If it's a game like RoM then go on a spending spree, I do not care because i wont be playing anyways.

Originally posted by bustaj

Does that make it ok to trivialize everyone else game with money?  All because they have more time to actually play game than you.  Also I still think it's fair still because if you did the exact same things in the same amount of time that the other people did you get the exact same rewards.  It becomes a matter of when and not if.  Which leads me to believe that you want to shortcut the game in order to get it all now.  Like my monopoly analogy.  You do not want to really play, you want to be the best now.

Honestly, you want to throw other players to the wind just because they can play more?  Yes they play more, yes they are ahead yes they probably do not have as much responsibility than you, but for goodness sake they played the game more than you, why shouldn't they be ahead?

Let me give you another example although a little extreme.  You and your co worker  put in a regular day but your coworker decides he is going to work extra and you go home to do whatever, or you go pay bills or something.  2 weeks go by and you co worker comments on how much in overtime he made.  Would you go to you boss and try to leverage a way of getting extra pay like your co worker?  He did more time than you, he deserves his extra pay.  He may have had less responsibility therefore more time to stay at work but does that entitle you to same amount of pay as him even though he may not have a wife and kids to provide for and you do?

I know I know, we are talking about a game but should we "bend the rules" just because it is?

Now, I never said that all RMT should die. I realise people feel the same as you and they should be able to spend to make up for time because that's fun for them i suppose.  I hate the people that buy gold in games not set up for that kind of play.  Like I said they are breaking the rules and trivializing time put in.  If it's a game like RoM then go on a spending spree, I do not care because i wont be playing anyways.

It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time.  All because they have more time to play.  Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut.  There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring.  Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time.  If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing.  Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want.

So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place.

As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him.  However, I do not pay my job to come work there.  They pay me.  I do pay to play games for entertainment.  I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend.  If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more.

So yes, we should bend the rules.  You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies.  In a good RMT I don't take away your loot.  You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it.  You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same.  When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you.  However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.

Originally posted by bstripp 

It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time.  All because they have more time to play.  Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut.  There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring.  Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time.  If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing.  Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want.

So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place.

As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him.  However, I do not pay my job to come work there.  They pay me.  I do pay to play games for entertainment.  I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend.  If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more.

So yes, we should bend the rules.  You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies.  In a good RMT I don't take away your loot.  You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it.  You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same.  When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you.  However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.

You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else.  You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P

Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.

I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective.  Like I said before though.  I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you.  I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for.  If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something.  If you do you are a cheater.  No if ands or buts, you are a cheater.  There is no justification for it.  So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair?  I do not care for what ever reason.  Did you play fair?

Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?

For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?

If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by qombi

Poorly designed game or the person that bought the game is playing the wrong game for them. Move along to a game that is fun all the way through. I believe it does not make sense. Why pay a developer extra money because parts of their game is unfun? These are games that are meant to be played for fun. If something is so unfun that you feel the need to swipe a credit card to bypass it, it's time to move along. 

Wait... if the game is designed around buying items to enhance the fun and the player finds it fun to buy the items....

 

...then how is that the wrong game for that person?

I am speaking of P2P games trying to force item shops on people. I wasn't speaking of the casino games/ real life money games that F2P games are. I have always avoided them anyhow.

whatever game it is Lynx is right.
 

He who has the money and willing to spend it can do it so long as it is within the brackets of law.  Jealousy from your QQs only shows "sour grape" tears.  If you do not want to pay, go play something else.

Thousands of people pay money online to change the look of their icons in chatrooms.  Thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to download odd sound waves and songs for their mobiles.  Thousands ... .  What do I mean to say?

NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.  MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

 

You are taking this too personal. I am not angry. If you think this is about jealousy then you I am afraid have missed the whole reason people play games. The fact is you are arguing for RMT Did I argue for RMT?  Did you read or just assume anyone who does not agree with you is on the other side of the camp?  All I am saying is, RMT is not the only factor relevant, quality of gameplay is all, and RMT is only one factor contributing to gameplay.  because of jealousy of others. I myself find RMT a disgusting perversion on rpg gaming because it goes against what gaming is. Games are meant to be enjoyed by playing them.  So play them the way you want BUT leave others to play the way they want to. Swiping a credit card for items isn't playing a game.  You decide how they play their game?  You decide how they swipe their card? Play your own game.  Why do you bother how they play their game.  I smell jealousy again.  No way I can explain why you are more concerned with stopping people enjoying their game than playing your own game. If a game is good then you enjoy being in the world playing it. If a game is bad you do not. Buying items with a credit card can never says you, do you speak for everyone? buy you what others get from playing the game and that is the experience of playing the game. That is ultimately what you are paying for the experience of playing the game.  Yeah, just as lynnx said, he enjoys paying for the items, that is he is paying for his own version of fun, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, unless you are jealous

If it was not then it wouldn't be called a game. Buying items online doesn't equal a game or game content. Says you, you decide for all of us what is game? That is a lazy way for a developer to make money. Stop making decisions for others, let the developer do it the way he wants, you are not obama, and even if you are obama, you have no say on how a game developer earns money. Making fun content to be played is what a game is. All the things you mention below are not classified as games.  Says you again, stop making decisions for everyone else on what is game. Unlike you I do just that, if I find a game unfun I quit it. Then quit, but stop telling me that I must quit because you do. I no longer support them with my money. A game adds an item shop that I am playing, I quit. I no longer want the product. If you were smart you would see that if a game design isn't for you then you move to one that is fun and for you. If I am smart I must follow you without my own view, if i have my own views I am not smart?  WoW wonderful way of argument, either way I am stupid. OK let me try "If you are smart, you should give me all your money", right? Giving developers money for virtual pixels to bypass their game content isn't the answer. The answer would be to find that game that you find fun without having to bypass the content.  Says you, you define what is fun for us all?

All you are doing is relentlessly pushing your own idea on what is fun, what is game content, what should be priced, all your personal views.  Then you suddenly turn that personal view into a truth, an orthodox and call us un-smart if we do not follow you.  Come on, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.  I have my own brain, my own life, my own views.  I can decide on what to do with my money, Lynnx already told you what he enjoys, accept the fact that your view stays with you, it has no binding effects on us, and that does not indicate you are smart or me/lynnx is not smart.

Stop preaching like a priest.  Your idea is not the Bible.  Not following you does not mean condemnation to hell.  I do not see RMT as a single most important factor affecting gameplay, it all depends on how the game is designed, and if there is RMT, how RMT fits in.  It also depends on the game community, and the way the developer controls the evolution of the game community.  RMT is just one factor.  Judging a game on just one factor is a very narrow way of thinking.  Open you mind.

Last but most important of all, stop telling us your views as if it is the only possible way of looking at things.  Enough people told you they do not see things your way.  If you cannot accept the fact that each of us has a brain, and can judge on our own, discussions stops here.

AND do not put words into my mouth.  I never said I support RMT for the sake of RMT.  Not finding it a serious problem does not mean I support it without reservations.  Things are not always black and white.

(1) IF a game with RMT is still fun for me, and worth the sub in my view, I sub and play.

(2) IF the game sux for me, I won't play it, RMT or not.

Simple as that.

Originally posted by bustaj

Originally posted by bstripp 

It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time.  All because they have more time to play.  Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut.  There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring.  Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time.  If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing.  Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want.

So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place.

As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him.  However, I do not pay my job to come work there.  They pay me.  I do pay to play games for entertainment.  I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend.  If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more.

So yes, we should bend the rules.  You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies.  In a good RMT I don't take away your loot.  You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it.  You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same.  When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you.  However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.

You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else.  You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P

Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.

I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective.  Like I said before though.  I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you.  I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for.  If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something.  If you do you are a cheater.  No if ands or buts, you are a cheater.  There is no justification for it.  So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair?  I do not care for what ever reason.  Did you play fair?

Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?

For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?

If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.

Two seperate issues,

(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game.  Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.

(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal.  No exception.  Gold seller for me is sin.

Are you referring to the micropayment model by any chance?

I'm not a big fan of those, but if its just for good character looks (like maplestory) its fine in my opinion.

However, I agree with blizzard entertainment that all RMT that gives players a significant edge over others should not be allowed. How significant? Being more powerful. If it slightly helps them to level up faster, sooner or later they reach endgame, so no worries about that. Their level 60 powerleveled mage would be just as powerful as your level 60 slowboated mage.

If you are talking about nice cool items that are different from that in game in terms of firepower are the same (just additional features, see Combat Arms for more details), then its allright, but if its a one hit kill machine gun that auto aims and head/nutshots everyone then its bad...

Just my $0.02

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by bustaj

Originally posted by bstripp 

It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time.  All because they have more time to play.  Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut.  There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring.  Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time.  If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing.  Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want.

So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place.

As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him.  However, I do not pay my job to come work there.  They pay me.  I do pay to play games for entertainment.  I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend.  If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more.

So yes, we should bend the rules.  You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies.  In a good RMT I don't take away your loot.  You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it.  You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same.  When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you.  However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.

You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else.  You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P

Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.

I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective.  Like I said before though.  I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you.  I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for.  If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something.  If you do you are a cheater.  No if ands or buts, you are a cheater.  There is no justification for it.  So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair?  I do not care for what ever reason.  Did you play fair?

Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?

For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?

If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Two seperate issues,

(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game.  Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.

(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal.  No exception.  Gold seller for me is sin.

That's exactly what I have been saying from the beginning >.<

Originally posted by bstripp

Now for me, I measure my progression in terms of what I can do in the game.  There are things I do and don't like to do (like anyone).  However, I honestly don't care that a character is better or worse than me unless it prevents me from doing the things I want.  Ask yourself how you judge your progression in a single player game.  You do so based on your ability to handle the content at a given time.  I'd tell you that's how you should measure yourself in an entertainment medium.

As long as you, and plenty of others if the poll is to be believed, see the game as a competition; then I have no arguement that will make any sense to you in the long run.

However, if you are really going to go down the fair road, then we should probably limit the amount of time people can spend in a game as well.  What kind of game, if balance and fairness is to be held to a high standard, allows you to play for 100 hours while I can only play for 10.  Certainly they won't let one sports team play for an extra period while the other team has to sit on the sidelines.  Why should that be in a MMO?  Eve tried to address that with their skill system and while it redresses some issues it causes others.

Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap.

Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make?

All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less.

Why does it make any difference how fast you do it?

You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you?

Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?

Originally posted by bstripp

Yes, we all have 24 hours in a day.  However, the amount of disposable time that we recieve differs vastly.  This is no different than each of us having differing amounts of cash to spend on our entertainment.  I personally think it's unfair that you can play for 8 hours a day while I have other responsibilities that have to be met if my family is going to have a roof over their head and food on the table.  I don't choose to work over play, I have to work over play.

Frankly those people trivialize anything that I will ever do and their limitless time creates an unfair gulf that I can not catch up.  Because for how ever many hours I put in, they will be putting in 4x those hours.

You can argue that people have the same ability to earn money and choose to play games instead.  Both time and money are limited comodoties for most people.  True, there is less varriance in time and the caps are much harder, but in practice, both are completely limited, and both affect your game experience.

This is what I don't understand. Why? Why does it make any difference if you make level 5 in one day, or one week?

You will also play 8 hours. Just not in a day. You will do the SAME quests, and kill the SAME mobs, and play the SAME 8 hours as the other person, but you will do it in a week or a month, instead of a day.

Why does this feel unfair to you? Is it that you feel he got a better deal on his 14.95 per month? Or is it something else? If something else, what in the world can it be?

You're absolutely no different than him on the game. You play 8 hours, he plays 8 hours, you both do the same content. Why would you want to play on his schedule instead of yours? Are you upset that he will get to the end game in a faster number of days? If you measure the game in content, you will do the EXACT same content as him to get to the end game. Why the rush?

In the above quote, you said you measure progress by what you can do in the game, now you're measuring it by levels per day?

To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll.

Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".

Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game?

Is it  your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items?

I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that.

So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford  the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game?

Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll.

Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".

Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game?

Is it  your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items?

I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that.

So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford  the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game?

Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?

Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures.  In simple terms its useless.

Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable.  Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.

Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view.  There is no objective common measure, unlike age.  Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10.  Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.

Originally posted by bustaj

You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else.  You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P

<snip>

Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?

For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?

If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.

I know it may not seem that way, but I do respect your opinion.  Honestly, I have never done any RMT in any game.  I don't play them since for the most part I have yet to find one that's engaging enough to warrant paying to unlock things.  If I did, well that would be fine.

The only real reason I'm debating in this thread is that I do see a very clear need for RMT in games.  While I have yet to use them, I also don't see them as competition.  Read this thread and there are tons of people who feel different.  They want to play a fair game, yet are playing with a completely unfair set of rules.  Adding RMT into the mix actually levels the playing field if it is done right.  Granted, I have yet to see one that's done right and a lot of them are shameless money grabs.  That doesn't mean that the model is bad, just that devs haven't really worked it out yet.

Now, I don't think that my money is more important than your time, but I do think that for people without time, there should be another avenue for them to achieve the same goals in the game.

If the goal of the game if PvP and I hate grinding, then being able to buy out of that portion of the game would be fine.  Some people can't/don't/won't level a character due to repetitive inane content against bad AI.  Since it's a game, the devs should happily take their money and let that person get to the PvP they want.

If I want to catch up to a friend who is playing and don't want to either bug someone for a PL, or go through the tedium of doing it, perhaps those XP potions or literally buying levels would work.  I can catch my friends who started several months before me and play with them.

It really doesn't make a difference what the reason is.  Some people don't have the time to put into the long grinds that are in most games.  Should they not play them?  Perhaps, but that's not for you and I to decide where they should spend their entertainment dollars.

As for gold selling, that's a whole nother ball of yarn.  On one side, I agree that if it's not allowed it's cheating.  On the other, devs are downright stupid for not selling their own gold or having a currency that's not tradeable.  Goldselling is going to happen regardless of what legalities you place on them.  They might as well get the cash which would help fund more resources into the game.

While goldselling is illegal in many games, most MMO players are happy to be twinked.  Is there really all that much difference?  So there's yet another hypocritical stance that most people have on RMT.  They'll complain about how buying gold is cheating, but be more than happy to transfer gold from a higher level toon, or guildmate.