Originally posted by Joppari

Originally posted by hubertgrove

 

Oh indeed. And compared with games of its type, it did very well. However, beside other Bioware's games - from Baldur's Gate to KOTOR to Mass Effect - it did not achieve such successful penetration.

 

Why would they attempt to emulate it then?

Because, if perfected, it could be very profitable.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Joppari

Originally posted by hubertgrove

 

Oh indeed. And compared with games of its type, it did very well. However, beside other Bioware's games - from Baldur's Gate to KOTOR to Mass Effect - it did not achieve such successful penetration.

 

Why would they attempt to emulate it then?

 

Because, if perfected, it could be very profitable.

Well ok I guess so.

If I were a game developer with so many titles behind me as BioWare I'd be tempted to follow the most successful 'formula'.

Who knows how the minds of these people work though, we've seen some pretty strange things happen over the years with MMOs.

Originally posted by Joppari

 

Well ok I guess so.

 

If I were a game developer with so many titles behind me as BioWare I'd be tempted to follow the most successful 'formula'.

 

Who knows how the minds of these people work though, we've seen some pretty strange things happen over the years with MMOs.

Yes, and while many of us would like to see an open-ended, no-barrier Star Wars game, a finely engineered single player game online that runs smoothly on rails would be much, much cheaper and more profitable to develop and run from a developer's point of view.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

No, the real inspiration is one of Bioware's lesser known and least popular games - Neverwinter Nights.

How, from a mechanics standpoint, is this different from KOTOR or Mass Effect?  All three of these games had companion characters, and all of them were single-player, story-heavy RPGs.  I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I think it will be very much like all three of these franchises, but I wanted to know why you picked NWN over any of their other titles.  I mean, KOTOR would probably be the most fitting, right, since it's in the same universe with essentially the same concept.

Originally posted by Praxus1874

Originally posted by hubertgrove

No, the real inspiration is one of Bioware's lesser known and least popular games - Neverwinter Nights.

 

How, from a mechanics standpoint, is this different from KOTOR or Mass Effect?  All three of these games had companion characters, and all of them were single-player, story-heavy RPGs.  I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I think it will be very much like all three of these franchises, but I wanted to know why you picked NWN over any of their other titles.  I mean, KOTOR would probably be the most fitting, right, since it's in the same universe with essentially the same concept.

Because Neverwinter Nights had online multiplayer features that, for their time, were very innovative if not, in my opinion, very enjoyable. It was pretty much a SRPG with multiplayer detail which is what I think SWOTOR is shaping up to be - though in a much more advanced version.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Praxus1874

Originally posted by hubertgrove

No, the real inspiration is one of Bioware's lesser known and least popular games - Neverwinter Nights.

 

How, from a mechanics standpoint, is this different from KOTOR or Mass Effect?  All three of these games had companion characters, and all of them were single-player, story-heavy RPGs.  I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I think it will be very much like all three of these franchises, but I wanted to know why you picked NWN over any of their other titles.  I mean, KOTOR would probably be the most fitting, right, since it's in the same universe with essentially the same concept.

 

Because Neverwinter Nights had online multiplayer features that, for their time, were very innovative if not, in my opinion, very enjoyable. It was pretty much a SRPG with multiplayer detail which is what I think SWOTOR is shaping up to be - though in a much more advanced version.

Because you do not believe developers when they say that the basic elements of MMO's will be in the game right? PvP, Trade, Crafting, End-Game Dungeons etc. . 

Oh right, we have to be careful of the partnership behind the game. I forgot. It's all a conspiracy to get us a game that is not what they claim it to be but what you know it to be! Little facts released about a highly anticipated title. Fertile grounds for you to make assumptions based on your so-called "intelligent and mature" mind while you try to put down others who do not share your "vision". 

Oh and by the way, Neverwinter Nights Online components were in fact -so- successful that the game is still being played today by a devoted community. But that is due to the Toolset that comes with the game and it is a completely baseless assumption to think BioWare will base TOR on that model....unless you think they will present us with a MMO (or whatever you want to call it) where we can actually create content for ourselves? Personally, I think that'd be delightful.

in mmorpgs...how often are you truly forced to group (PVE wise)?

SWG you grouped only for xp bonuses, people still ground the game solo (even the hardest aspects like geo caves and krayts i did solo with no problem)

WoW i solod 90% of the content

EQ2 solo was closer to 75-80%

AoC i think i grouped once or twice

WAR i grouped only for PQs

EVE is an anomoly atm, i solo rarely

every game can be solo'd except for the tough content (raids, group dungeons, etc), i really see this as no different than every other mmorpg out there.

Originally posted by Toxilium

It seems to me this game is going two ways when it is released:

1. BioWare just sucks at interviews and such, and our fears will be quelled. We'll have a great MMO about Star Wars.

2. BioWare makes KOTOR 3 with a live chat room.

I'm really hoping for the former, but the way BioWare presents this game since it's announcement a few months ago is suggesting the latter.

I would be perfectly fine with the latter.
 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

 

Because you do not believe developers when they say that the basic elements of MMO's will be in the game right? PvP, Trade, Crafting, End-Game Dungeons etc. . 

 

Oh right, we have to be careful of the partnership behind the game. I forgot. It's all a conspiracy to get us a game that is not what they claim it to be but what you know it to be! Little facts released about a highly anticipated title. Fertile grounds for you to make assumptions based on your so-called "intelligent and mature" mind while you try to put down others who do not share your "vision". 

 

Oh and by the way, Neverwinter Nights Online components were in fact -so- successful that the game is still being played today by a devoted community. But that is due to the Toolset that comes with the game and it is a completely baseless assumption to think BioWare will base TOR on that model....unless you think they will present us with a MMO (or whatever you want to call it) where we can actually create content for ourselves? Personally, I think that'd be delightful.

Well, yes, that's precisely what I am saying. No need to get excited. :lol:
 

Originally posted by Toxilium

They said that the main appeal of MMOs is the experience single player with the option of being with other players. They confirmed that names, chat, and so on could all be turned off or ignored if you really, really wanted absolutely nothing to do with other people."

I'm sorry BioWare, how does "single-player main appeal of MMOs" fit into the catagory of "Massively Multiplayer Online?"

I think what they are saying is that if you do not want to be in groups, that playing solo will not affect your game play or story line.

As for the being able to turn off other players names and ignore their chat, i think they mean if someone annoys ya or something, that  you can prevent them form interacting with you., or if you want to drink a few beers and act as if your toon was real you can shut out the other players

Originally posted by Wookiee6648

Originally posted by Toxilium

They said that the main appeal of MMOs is the experience single player with the option of being with other players. They confirmed that names, chat, and so on could all be turned off or ignored if you really, really wanted absolutely nothing to do with other people."

I'm sorry BioWare, how does "single-player main appeal of MMOs" fit into the catagory of "Massively Multiplayer Online?"

I think what they are saying is that if you do not want to be in groups, that playing solo will not affect your game play or story line.

As for the being able to turn off other players names and ignore their chat, i think they mean if someone annoys ya or something, that  you can prevent them form interacting with you., or if you want to drink a few beers and act as if your toon was real you can shut out the other players

Aaah, now this is where I think you may be wrong. Or, at least, where my own prediction for where the game is going differs from yours.

Based on what I have read and what I have seen, I believe that almost all the game - and all the world - will be instanced to individual players or individual teams/groups. In other words, once you step outside a limited number of general areas, everyone you see and interact with will be an NPC.

I think there may be placed where you meet or interact with other players outside your group - like PVP battlefields, space stations and cantinas - but, on the whole, when you re-enter the game world you can only do so as an individual or an individual team.

This is a controversial view, I know, but I believe nothing that Bioware has yet said about the game contradicts this view. And, as I said earlier, this model of game would be a perfected version of the Neverwinter Nights game.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Wookiee6648

Originally posted by Toxilium

They said that the main appeal of MMOs is the experience single player with the option of being with other players. They confirmed that names, chat, and so on could all be turned off or ignored if you really, really wanted absolutely nothing to do with other people."

I'm sorry BioWare, how does "single-player main appeal of MMOs" fit into the catagory of "Massively Multiplayer Online?"

I think what they are saying is that if you do not want to be in groups, that playing solo will not affect your game play or story line.

As for the being able to turn off other players names and ignore their chat, i think they mean if someone annoys ya or something, that  you can prevent them form interacting with you., or if you want to drink a few beers and act as if your toon was real you can shut out the other players

 

Aaah, now this is where I think you may be wrong. Or, at least, where my own prediction for where the game is going differs from yours.

Based on what I have read and what I have seen, I believe that almost all the game - and all the world - will be instanced to individual players or individual teams/groups. In other words, once you step outside a limited number of general areas, everyone you see and interact with will be an NPC.

I think there may be placed where you meet or interact with other players outside your group - like PVP battlefields, space stations and cantinas - but, on the whole, when you re-enter the game world you can only do so as an individual or an individual team.

This is a controversial view, I know, but I believe nothing that Bioware has yet said about the game contradicts this view. And, as I said earlier, this model of game would be a perfected version of the Neverwinter Nights game.

I think they've stated that it's going to be an open world mostly, I'll see if I can dig up a quote for you, but I think your fears are a little unfounded to the extent you outline in the above post.

They hinted at some instanced areas for the progression of your story, but it sounded as if those would not be too frequent.

Originally posted by Joppari

Originally posted by hubertgrove

 

Aaah, now this is where I think you may be wrong. Or, at least, where my own prediction for where the game is going differs from yours.

Based on what I have read and what I have seen, I believe that almost all the game - and all the world - will be instanced to individual players or individual teams/groups. In other words, once you step outside a limited number of general areas, everyone you see and interact with will be an NPC.

I think there may be placed where you meet or interact with other players outside your group - like PVP battlefields, space stations and cantinas - but, on the whole, when you re-enter the game world you can only do so as an individual or an individual team.

This is a controversial view, I know, but I believe nothing that Bioware has yet said about the game contradicts this view. And, as I said earlier, this model of game would be a perfected version of the Neverwinter Nights game.

 

I think they've stated that it's going to be an open world mostly, I'll see if I can did up a quote for you, but I think your fears are a little unfounded to the extent you outline in the above post.

 

They hinted at some instanced areas for the progression of your story, but it sounded as if those would not be too frequent.

If you can find such a quote, I'd be very interested to see it. It's precisely because no one at Bioware seems to mention the word 'open' at all that I am making my prediction of a Single Player Online Game based - or at least inspired by - Neverwinter Nights.
 

Originally posted by hubertgrove

If you can find such a quote, I'd be very interested to see it. It's precisely because no one at Bioware seems to mention the word 'open' at all that I am making my prediction of a Single Player Online Game based - or at least inspired by - Neverwinter Nights.
 

"We feel because it's an MMO and players play MMOs because they want to feel like they're a part of a vast world, you can't make too heavy use of instancing or you take that feeling away."

"...we want to make sure you don't feel like you are in a single-player game."

Source: www.massively.com/2008/10/23/swtor-overview-part-2/

Originally posted by Joppari

Originally posted by hubertgrove

If you can find such a quote, I'd be very interested to see it. It's precisely because no one at Bioware seems to mention the word 'open' at all that I am making my prediction of a Single Player Online Game based - or at least inspired by - Neverwinter Nights.
 

 

"We feel because it's an MMO and players play MMOs because they want to feel like they're a part of a vast world, you can't make too heavy use of instancing or you take that feeling away."

 

Source: www.massively.com/2008/10/23/swtor-overview-part-2/

Good find. It does seem to argue very much against my vision of what the game is going to be.

...And yet, it still doesn't say 'open' which is different to 'vast', if you see what I mean.

For example, both Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights were 'vast' but they weren't 'open'.

And there is still this quote - it comes from The Edge magazine which had an interview with James Ohlem, The Old Republic’s game director:

'Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find fun'.

source: http://www.lucascast.com/images/TORScan2.jp

That quote, in my opinion, directly contradicts the spirit of yours.

 Neverwinter Nights is still a bad example for TOR in my opinion. 

Again, the main attraction of NWN was the Toolset (in regards to multiplayer I mean). Creating your own worlds and playing in them is what allows this game to still be played today. We've seen no sign that TOR will have such a feature (albeit it would be awesome). 

I'd say a safer bet would be saying they base the design on the original KOTOR and then add Multiplayer support to it. That is, let multiple players in the same party enjoy the story (as recently pointed out at E3) and keep the heavy focus on the story-experience. 

That is to say, yes, it will be linear in a sort of way, but branching in others. As to open worlds, that is really up for interpretation and speculation, since for now, we have no idea how large zones will be. 

Personally my -fear- is they make it too much like Guild Wars, with only hubs being mingling points and any outside area instanced. Keeping faith though. 

Look guys

It was obvious from very first days.

SWTOR will be a online single player game. 

Multiplayer hubs - but everything else will be instanced.

This is the way genre is moving towards. And in fact newcommers dont even know the difference. Nor do they grasp what true shared world means...

But I bet SWTOR will be a good game. As singleplayer RPGs go.

Problem is you will eed subscription to play what is basically singleplayer game...

Now that is what i do not like

Originally posted by singsofdeath

 Neverwinter Nights is still a bad example for TOR in my opinion. 

 

Again, the main attraction of NWN was the Toolset (in regards to multiplayer I mean). Creating your own worlds and playing in them is what allows this game to still be played today. We've seen no sign that TOR will have such a feature (albeit it would be awesome). 

 

I'd say a safer bet would be saying they base the design on the original KOTOR and then add Multiplayer support to it. That is, let multiple players in the same party enjoy the story (as recently pointed out at E3) and keep the heavy focus on the story-experience. 

 

That is to say, yes, it will be linear in a sort of way, but branching in others. As to open worlds, that is really up for interpretation and speculation, since for now, we have no idea how large zones will be. 

 

Personally my -fear- is they make it too much like Guild Wars, with only hubs being mingling points and any outside area instanced. Keeping faith though. 

I can see what you are saying but in both KOTORs the landscapes to be explored were tiny. Room enough for one person to explore and fight - or perhaps a small team - but certainly not enough to include other PC players and teams. One Kotor planet, for example, is about the a quarter of the size of one average WoW dungeon. Yes, there's nothing to stop Bioware making them larger but if you look at any screenshots shown so far, the navigable areas seem very small indeed.

However, it will be interesting to see what Bioware comes up with.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Joppari

Originally posted by hubertgrove

If you can find such a quote, I'd be very interested to see it. It's precisely because no one at Bioware seems to mention the word 'open' at all that I am making my prediction of a Single Player Online Game based - or at least inspired by - Neverwinter Nights.
 

 

"We feel because it's an MMO and players play MMOs because they want to feel like they're a part of a vast world, you can't make too heavy use of instancing or you take that feeling away."

 

Source: www.massively.com/2008/10/23/swtor-overview-part-2/

 

Good find. It does seem to argue very much against my vision of what the game is going to be.

...And yet, it still doesn't say 'open' which is different to 'vast', if you see what I mean.

For example, both Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights were 'vast' but they weren't 'open'.

And there is still this quote - it comes from The Edge magazine which had an interview with James Ohlem, The Old Republic’s game director:

'Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find fun'.

source: http://www.lucascast.com/images/TORScan2.jp

That quote, in my opinion, directly contradicts the spirit of yours.

 

I am not any of the people that made any of those quotes. I have not played the game either so I can't tell you.

I don't know what the finished product will be like, it could be as linear as Treasure Island Dizzy for all I know.

Either way, it doesn't bother me.

I'm looking forward to an incredible Star Wars experience from Bioware, be it a single player RPG with other players around or a fully fledged sandbox MMO. Either way I believe they're going to present an enjoyable and engaging game.

We'll just have to wait for more information, I can't say anymore than that.

First off, kudos to Bioware for trying something different.

Second, THANK GOD for this!   I am so sick and tired of playing an MMO only to hit a wall with some "you must have x number of others" quest.   Arrrgh!  

Soloing or grouping should always be by choice.   You should do one or the other depending on your preference, mood, etc.

Forced grouping (for even one single quest) is not mandatory in any MMO.

I plan to create a character for each class, and play that entire class' story through.    As soon as I hit a "you must get others' quest, it's over for that story.

Yes, I will group sometimes.  But FFS don't ever force me to!   Why are so many people insistant upon this?  "Please, take away choices so everyone has to play the way I want".    I just don't get it.

Yes, I know it's an MMO.   I like the persistant worlds, the teeming cities, the economy, etc.    But I despise being forced to team up (for anything, ever) in an MMO.     Options are better.