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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
6/05/09 8:30:36 AM#41
Originally posted by Waterlily
You're not goint to get away with that to promote your "hardcore cause". Everyone pays a similar fee to play the game and everyone who buys the game has a right to see all the content, experience all the content and do this in an amount of time which is reasonable. A player should not be forced / expected or enticed to play "hardcore" to experience all the content or to progress at a reasonable pace in the game. Hardcore in MMO is directly related and proportional to playtime in MMO. Play more and expect bigger rewards, more content and more opportunities, play less and receive less rewards and less content and less events, items and enjoy the game "less". Many players have come to the conclusion that that's not what they want. There is difficult content and time consuming content. Force your time consuming content on others and you will be left with very few players to play your game, resulting in no difference between you or someone who plays just as much as you.
Very well said Waterlily, saves me lots of extra typing. I've always objected to the core design behind MMO's which has been, put in more time, get more reward. Spending more time gaming does not make a person hardcore, (or better) just means they have no life outside of the game and this is the only place they can excel. Several people have mentioned that the hardcore players of 10 years ago have grown up and now have jobs, family, etc. Guess what, there were people 10 years ago who had those things and they never bothered to play the early MMO's, because they were too much of a timesink. Modern MMO's have made themselves more accessable to people who can't live in a virtual world, and the result is far more people are playing them than ever. I remember playing DAOC back in the heyday, and at any given time we had a maximum of 27K players online in a given evening. Nowadays EVE easily surpasses that figure and its considered a niche game for nerds. Other games like WAR or WOW, and AION greatly exceed these numbers. Speaking of AION, I haven't played it, but I've read that it is far more accessible (casual) than previous NCSoft games like L1/L2, and is growing at a phenomenal rate. Maybe, just maybe, what the world needs is more games of this type. Though i do realize, for those who long to return to the timesinks of yesterday, today's games do not cater to you. But you really don't want that. When VG came out, in addition to complaints about the bugs many players decried the return of corpse runs (I thought they sucked), long travel times. (I'm told there's lots of faster travel options now) and a steep grouping model after level 20 which people hated as well and has since been changed. There really is a very small market of players who enjoy hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, and no devleoper today is going to create a game for them except perhaps a small indie firm.
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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6/05/09 9:12:10 AM#42
I wouldn't say hardcore mmo's are dead or hardcore gaming is dead. I would say hardcore gaming (single player and mmo) is turning into a niche as gaming becomes more mainstream. That is a logical evolvement that anyone with any foresight could have seen coming. Gaming in whatever form could never turn mainstream as if it kept catering to the same young male demographic. There will however always be games catering to them, but it will increasingly be small design studios as the big studios set their eyes on the big pot of money that is mainstream. |
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6/05/09 9:36:58 AM#43
Originally posted by Prankster
daoc pvp had no real risk in dying, you are totally correct but one of the reasons it was so good was the actual combat was really good (aside from stick and face that made it a little easy) and even with that, 95 % of the players were BAD BAD BAD BAD before New Frontiers, and all the realm point boosts, most players could never even hit R5 its a game, its not that hard, but for some reason people couldn't grasp how to play?
so it was fun running around with my 8 man squad, taking out 40+ people on a nightly basis in one fight, and never seeing them return (they either logged or joined the zerg)
thats what made their combat so elite, if you were good.. you dominated, most games now adays if your good... you can do well, but the other people have decent enough gear, or cried about getting CC nerfed so they can stomp out anyone so as long as they have enough people with them |
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6/05/09 9:52:36 AM#44
Originally posted by malidar No, it just means lots of players are online at the same time. Nothing about playing together in the title. Given the difficulty of finding players questing in the zone where I am, at the time I am in there, doing the quest I am on, at the same stage of the quest that I am, and who are also mature, articulate and intelligent, soloing is the best way to go. I never join pick-up groups - it just isn't worth the bother. |
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6/05/09 10:03:12 AM#45
Originally posted by Kyleran
Very well said Waterlily, saves me lots of extra typing. I've always objected to the core design behind MMO's which has been, put in more time, get more reward. Spending more time gaming does not make a person hardcore, (or better) just means they have no life outside of the game and this is the only place they can excel. Several people have mentioned that the hardcore players of 10 years ago have grown up and now have jobs, family, etc. Guess what, there were people 10 years ago who had those things and they never bothered to play the early MMO's, because they were too much of a timesink. Modern MMO's have made themselves more accessable to people who can't live in a virtual world, and the result is far more people are playing them than ever. I remember playing DAOC back in the heyday, and at any given time we had a maximum of 27K players online in a given evening. Nowadays EVE easily surpasses that figure and its considered a niche game for nerds. Other games like WAR or WOW, and AION greatly exceed these numbers. Speaking of AION, I haven't played it, but I've read that it is far more accessible (casual) than previous NCSoft games like L1/L2, and is growing at a phenomenal rate. Maybe, just maybe, what the world needs is more games of this type. Though i do realize, for those who long to return to the timesinks of yesterday, today's games do not cater to you. But you really don't want that. When VG came out, in addition to complaints about the bugs many players decried the return of corpse runs (I thought they sucked), long travel times. (I'm told there's lots of faster travel options now) and a steep grouping model after level 20 which people hated as well and has since been changed. There really is a very small market of players who enjoy hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, and no devleoper today is going to create a game for them except perhaps a small indie firm.
/agree 100% Plus I think this minority of gamers who want a "return" to this type of game, only remember the game through weird, rosy glasses. It's easy to think about how great something was, but forget about all the nonsense involved in it because you are so far removed from it now. It's like the times I think back to College, what do I remember and reminisce about with buddies: the free time, the partying, the girls, the lack of "real world commitments". We never sit back and reminisce about: being completely broke, being hungover 75% of the time, the lack of sleep, the ridiculously difficult classes, the shitty cars we drove, the crappy housing situations we lived in, the reckless nature of so many things, etc, etc, etc. My point: the more removed you are from something you think fondly about (in terms of time), the more you remember the good, and the less you remember the bad......
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6/05/09 11:50:09 AM#46
Originally posted by Kyleran
Oh Kyleran I miss your postings. Very well said sir. This pretty much sums up everything and answers the OPs concerns and should be the end of the thread. Only thing I will add is that it's greed and it's a feeling of priviledge and superiority. They (so called hardcore) want to be the only ones to have the best stuff and be the best at the game because they feel that they deserve it because they aren't soft or because they are the most dedicated. It sucks to be the best and then have that taken away from you. MMOs now strive for players to be on more even ground, to have a better chance at being the hero and being awesome and it makes the people who felt they were the awesome and elite before feel like they aren't so special anymore, which is always a bad feeling. All anyone wants in a game is to have fun, to win, and if the game involves collecting stuff or being powerful they want to have cool stuff and feel powerful. Lots of people don't ilke the idea of other people having cool stuff too, because it makes them feel like they aren't as special or cool because they aren't the only one who has it. Spoiled whiny brats. Greedy @sshats. Call it what you want. "You'll find a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view." |
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6/05/09 12:24:58 PM#47
Originally posted by heerobya
Oh Kyleran I miss your postings. Very well said sir. This pretty much sums up everything and answers the OPs concerns and should be the end of the thread. Only thing I will add is that it's greed and it's a feeling of priviledge and superiority. They (so called hardcore) want to be the only ones to have the best stuff and be the best at the game because they feel that they deserve it because they aren't soft or because they are the most dedicated. It sucks to be the best and then have that taken away from you. MMOs now strive for players to be on more even ground, to have a better chance at being the hero and being awesome and it makes the people who felt they were the awesome and elite before feel like they aren't so special anymore, which is always a bad feeling. All anyone wants in a game is to have fun, to win, and if the game involves collecting stuff or being powerful they want to have cool stuff and feel powerful. Lots of people don't ilke the idea of other people having cool stuff too, because it makes them feel like they aren't as special or cool because they aren't the only one who has it. Spoiled whiny brats. Greedy @sshats. Call it what you want.
It's more what Kyleran is talking about. I agree that people want personalization so they can be different than other people, but all I hear from people that are wanting hardcore MMORPGs is that they want a really difficult and realistic world to survive in. That's great and all, but like Kyleran has already sort of described, it's not good for the entertainment of all who play. See, everyone knows Blizzard designs games to be entertaining. The entire time they were in development for World of Warcraft and all of their previous games like Diablo and Starcraft, they were asking themselves if their game was fun at all moments in time during play. Virtual worlds designed on being a realistic world is not about entertainment because those games tend to have LONG wait times to regenerate HP, cure your death sickness, and reobtain armor and gold. There's also problems with rebuilding your cities once they've been destroyed because it REALISTICALLY takes tons of money to build one in the first place. This makes the game about forcing the players that lose and sometimes even the ones that win (Generaly in Asian based RPGs this is usually the case by turning the Player Killer's name to Red or penalizing them in some way) to be penalized and have to wait incredibly long periods of time for their turn to have fun again. Waiting around for things to happen is what these games tend to be about and is not entertaining to say the least. Now if someone would just take the hardcore MMORPG and do it the right way people might be talking differently about it. Games are supposed to be about fun. Fun is what little kids like to do. Fun is what games are supposed to be. Fun is not waiting lines and sitting in the corner and time-outs. Maybe I'm going too far here... maybe it's not about letting our inner kid out and going wild, but when I hear and see many gamers talk about their games, that's all I can see... a little kid with a big toy and a big grin talking about how awesome their game is. |
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6/05/09 12:27:22 PM#48
OHH NNNOO, a new term enters the site, ok, what is the difference between hardcore and non-hardcore mmo's? |
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6/05/09 12:53:59 PM#49
Originally posted by Plasmicredx
I guess the counter argument is that to most people, on a human psychological level, getting something in the end is much more rewarding if it was really hard to get. It's a feeling of accomplishment. You worked hard and put a lot into it, so when you do get the reward you feel justified to have put that work in. To have suffered and toiled because the end reward was totally worth the trouble. The problem with this argument, the counter argument, is that nothing in MMOs is really that hard. It's all just about time and time sinks. The difficulty of these games comes from- 1. Having to possess lots of knowledge, you have to know your character and know the enemy and what they are capable of and what you can do against that.. This is the base of everything PvE and PvP related, from building a character to the actual combat and strategy and everythign else. 2. Having to possess a certain degree of dexterity, hand eye coordination, and reaction time. You have to be able to move to the right places at the right time, hit the right buttons on time and at the right time, etc. This is true for both PvE and PvP. This is what is refered to as "player skill." It's really the foundation for ALL video games. The problem is that all the knowledge is readily available on websites now. High speed interent and the explosion of web content in the past 10+ years means you can learn everything you need to know, all the knowledge without even playing the game. The rest is just a time sink, putting in the time to gain the experience. The second part is very limited in MMORPGs because of technological constraints. These are not FPS games where you have to have hair-pin accuracy and lightning reflexes. MMOs are designed to have a certain amount of "wiggle room" to account for server and client latency/lag. So you can be a really really good player in terms of skill and know everything about the game... But it's still not really anything hard. The true measure is how much time you have put in. Everything takes time. Leveling takes time. Accumulating resources takes time. You can be the best player in the game but still suck because you haven't put the time in to get the best rewards. Is this fair? Is time = reward a fair measurement? The "hardcore" elements most refer to are the elements that made the amount of time it took to get the rewards take longer. They made getting to the reward a bit more gratifying because the journey took more time. But the market changed and people became unwilling or unable to invest massive amounts of time to get the rewards. So they sped things up a bit. Now you get more rewards and you get them faster, but each one doesn't feel as big and cool most of the time. It's simply the difference between a little at a time fairly often or a lot at once but sparingly. The games are stil just as challenging and difficult, you just have to waste as much time getting through it. So yes, Hardcore MMOs are dead. MMOs are already enough of a time sink, adding additional time sinks just to make things take longer doesn't add any difficulty to the game, just tedium. Tedium which the current generation of MMO players simply won't accept. "You'll find a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view." |
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Reklaw
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/07/06
Freedom is the will to be responsible to ourselves. |
6/05/09 1:09:55 PM#50
Originally posted by toddze your right it orginally was just a play style. But the word has evolved to include the difficulty of a game. Alot of words have evolved like "troll" anyone with a negative view is a troll.
And your right aswell... Same with how "Fanboy" is used for anyone who might be slightly positive towards a game or it's company. ------------------------------------------------------------ |
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6/05/09 2:37:25 PM#51
Originally posted by heerobya
I guess the counter argument is that to most people, on a human psychological level, getting something in the end is much more rewarding if it was really hard to get. It's a feeling of accomplishment. You worked hard and put a lot into it, so when you do get the reward you feel justified to have put that work in. To have suffered and toiled because the end reward was totally worth the trouble. The problem with this argument, the counter argument, is that nothing in MMOs is really that hard. It's all just about time and time sinks. The difficulty of these games comes from- 1. Having to possess lots of knowledge, you have to know your character and know the enemy and what they are capable of and what you can do against that.. This is the base of everything PvE and PvP related, from building a character to the actual combat and strategy and everythign else. 2. Having to possess a certain degree of dexterity, hand eye coordination, and reaction time. You have to be able to move to the right places at the right time, hit the right buttons on time and at the right time, etc. This is true for both PvE and PvP. This is what is refered to as "player skill." It's really the foundation for ALL video games. The problem is that all the knowledge is readily available on websites now. High speed interent and the explosion of web content in the past 10+ years means you can learn everything you need to know, all the knowledge without even playing the game. The rest is just a time sink, putting in the time to gain the experience. The second part is very limited in MMORPGs because of technological constraints. These are not FPS games where you have to have hair-pin accuracy and lightning reflexes. MMOs are designed to have a certain amount of "wiggle room" to account for server and client latency/lag. So you can be a really really good player in terms of skill and know everything about the game... But it's still not really anything hard. The true measure is how much time you have put in. Everything takes time. Leveling takes time. Accumulating resources takes time. You can be the best player in the game but still suck because you haven't put the time in to get the best rewards. Is this fair? Is time = reward a fair measurement? The "hardcore" elements most refer to are the elements that made the amount of time it took to get the rewards take longer. They made getting to the reward a bit more gratifying because the journey took more time. But the market changed and people became unwilling or unable to invest massive amounts of time to get the rewards. So they sped things up a bit. Now you get more rewards and you get them faster, but each one doesn't feel as big and cool most of the time. It's simply the difference between a little at a time fairly often or a lot at once but sparingly. The games are stil just as challenging and difficult, you just have to waste as much time getting through it. So yes, Hardcore MMOs are dead. MMOs are already enough of a time sink, adding additional time sinks just to make things take longer doesn't add any difficulty to the game, just tedium. Tedium which the current generation of MMO players simply won't accept.
Totally agree with. |
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6/05/09 8:56:41 PM#52
This person makes a good point that hardcore MMO’s are dead. That is the only point that is valid, BUT.. there are quite a couple of MMO’s in different genres to choose from, though. Seriously, why call themselves hardcore gamers if they can’t really play for so long without being on long hiatuses? lol. They call themselves hardcore just because of long period of subscriptions and got a couple of epic items? Kiss my ass! That specific label ought to be banned just because many gamer wannabes claim to be hardcore, but is only the opposite. No need to call other people trolls and carebears. Get over yourselves, posers. WoW is NOT at fault for having the games up to par with them. They’re NOT at fault for the games to fold. They’re just simply successful with millions of dollars to be able to continue to make the game better. Don’t hate the game. I believe that WoW (World of Warcraft) is one hardcore MMO; for a couple of reasons in specific order - It’s everlasting, and hasn’t died.. The expansions keeps coming because the playerbase is still rocketing everyday with new and recurring members.. and not everyone has gotten through all the content and has achieved all the epic gears. I recall a couple of people struggling to get what they want, but the requirements are so demanding in the game that they have to make themselves more useful via stats, gears and the skills that are done properly. A variety of guilds are a bit snobbish at that point being less helpful with inexperienced players that are aching to be a part of the guild, instance runs and raids.. Or simply just to form a new friendship among the peers. I’m one of the certain few along with my boyfriend to help people because I know it’s hard to top skilled players and it’s unnecessary to compare yourself with them. It’s merely just a game to play, to enjoy yourselves.. and not to view it as a responsibility. Why do people view it as a responsibility when it really isn’t? They don’t think of it in their conciousness but, from other people’s perspective.. it is what they’re doing. They get all stressed out, pissed, and whine @ their failures.. It’s just a fucking game! Scratch that, it’s a fuckin’ awesome game. Back to the point, World of Warcraft is a hardcore MMO, period. It’s still alive today and will be for so many years with all those kids that has been aching to play when they were babies.. watching their parents play and it will pass on to many generations in the years to come. I know this, because my kid is 11 and he wants to play so badly but I decline.. for merely one reason; he’s too fuckin’ young. So yeah.. maybe WoW graphics isn’t so up to par like Final Fantasy, AoC, WAR, Aion, Darkfall, and/or any of those upcoming games that “hardcore” gamers are anticipating to play - So snobbish on graphics, and go “yeah this is so DX10! Better than WoW’s cartoonish graphics” /eyeroll. Gimme a break — Cool down on the graphics, seriously. There’s better things to talk about out there, like.. how the content is.. how the players are towards eachother, how the combat system is, how awesome the developers are.. You know what’s so funny? Those “hardcore” gamers, not even one, do not give praise to any of the developers who has made so many games in all those years in the past and now. I’d know this because I read mmorpg.com daily - All they do is bitch and bitch and bitch all over again. Never satisfied, never appreciative, never grateful. I always pass out kudos - They deserve it. Those gamers never realize that the games out are to keep us entertained, to kill time and not just play on consoles and/or twiddle thumbs to reach the new level of insanity. Those nimrods need to get over themselves. Everyone in the gaming companies are trying their best to make it work for all of you guys. Just keep that in mind. Sure, I’m lookin’ forward to so many new games out there.. but I’m not one to look down at people and/or do a bitchfest on forums every single fuckin’ day when they could simply find something better to do, like.. play a fuckin’ game. lol. If that game couldn’t be playable at the moment, then tell yourself.. “Oh, well.. it gives me the chance to take a shower”… HOW ABOUT THAT?!?!? Now, in conclusion; THERE ARE NO HARDCORE GAMERS OUT THERE. Every one of you are ALL THE SAME in the gaming world. You MAY be skilled, MAY be intelligent, MAY be AWESOME, MAY be less of a dickhead, but not a hardcore anything. Whatev, this may not be in relation to the article, it’s my 2 cents.
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6/05/09 9:13:56 PM#53
Well as for me the only ''hardcore'' mmo's I have played I guess they were/are labled hardcore was swg-precu, EvE, and earth and beyond, the saga of ryzom, and a lil eq 1 but didnt play long as I was spoiled by the other games graffix and felt i was wasting my rigs power when I got around to eq, What I am getting at is there seems to be a game on the horizon that has the mechanics of EvE and a bit for the casual player thrown in and will be completley or almost completely run by the player economics through skill based crafting, as well as the professions will be learned over time skill based with multiple skill paths to choose , it is called Alganon, I cant wait for it to hit, If all is what is in the game that was explained at the dev chat it will be a game for all of us, hardcore and the casual alike, the fact that they are using over time learned skills has me very interested as I love that in eve, and you can make a library of some type of skills you want to learn, os keep the skills to trade for goods and what not, Looks like the market is slowly weaning away from lvl up through xp as quick as possible type games, at least for alganon. playing eq2 and two worlds |
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6/05/09 9:27:03 PM#54
I think WoW is farthest from Hardcore... When I think of hardcore, I think of EQ1, thousands of people fighting 1 dragon boss. I think of Lineage doing the same... I think of FF11 that takes you 30 hours of your life to get to lvl 18 to get you a subjob so you can start to really play... Rewards that are worth it... WoW has no rewards, titles, that do nothing You don't feel like you have accomplished anything especially when you know you spent 7 months to get all your gear and the guy standing there just turned 80 and they outrolled you to get something better....
WoW was made for the softcore person, and hey they admit it... why did they turn 40 man raids into 25... cause they felt it was too hard to get 40 people? Cause 40 was too hardcore... we have to make our content easier... blah blah blah... Don't hate because I'm awesome |
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Jackio81
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/11/08
The MMO genre as a whole is a running joke considering a 5+ year old game is so dominant. |
6/06/09 2:58:41 AM#55
Hardcore MMOs are dead because after playing casual MMOs like WoW we realized how b.s. the rest were.
/thread
p.s. WoW still sucks in it's own way though...=/ |
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6/06/09 3:12:24 AM#56
Yeah it's really unfortunate... The mmo industries, create mmo's mostly for earning than for the passion of it. I'm not saying that creating an mmo for money isn't a bad idea, but i think they should balance the two things. 'Casue many hardcore mmo's put in so much passion in playing, and it's really a pity to see the mmo you've always liked becoming a kids play... or a commercial thing... There is Strength in numbers!!! |
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6/06/09 3:19:44 AM#57
At least we'll have hardcore gamer content from the begining on FFXIV. Casual conent may get more people into the game that may do hardcore content as well though, I'll just wait and see where it leads. Just so its easier to get those things started since I usually leave a day or two of the week to get down and do a hard quest or get all the xp I can. For now my most played MMOs are all very old school sprite based games but I might give this one a try since it promises to be as fun as FFXI.
As for the other comments. I dont really care about graphics, I just want to have some fun with a hard challenge now and then. Level/Do a quest wher I got atleast 50% chance of survival or that a mistake can be big trouble. I do easy stuff now and then as well when I dont have a lot of time but dont spect big rewards from that. Out of the 50+ MMOs I have played only stayed with PSO(Until it closed), FFXI, iRo, Trickster, and now and then PSU and Guild Wars. All the others lasted me around a monthl or even less. |
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6/06/09 10:22:04 AM#58
Originally posted by KaitarBesh
Well said! I used to be a Hard Core SWG player back in the day, now i have three kids, with another on the way ... a full time career, a home to maintain... etc. I don't have the time I used to. Who farted? |
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6/06/09 12:12:50 PM#59
Originally posted by Waterlily
Theres is just one problem, since there is very limited ways of adding difficult content, any difficult content will be refered to "timesink" or "grind". Since timesink and grind depend on the player, what is it to one person it may not be that to another. I consider casual friendly games a timesink/grind. because to much stuff is just to darn easy to get. You know youll eventually get what you want with little effort. You just go through the motions. The thought of never being able to obtain things is more attractive to my play style, if for some reason the stars moons and planet align just right and I get just one of the impossible items then, well thats more rewarding than having a fully decked out character in a casul friendly game. IMO anyways. Elder scrolls online: Voice your concerns here :http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php |
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6/06/09 2:15:17 PM#60
Originally posted by toddze
I completely agree. In EQ2, there are tons of solo-friendly quests out there for each level tier. Presumptively, these quests were added to remove the "grind" of killing random mobs to level. Unfortunately, because you need to do quests to get achievement experience and to develop your character, you are more-or-less required to do them. As a result, the quests become the "grind" that everyone talks about. They're your typical kill 10 of x mob style quests and are absurdly easy. I find them to be nothing more than a chore and are no less boring and repetitive than the "grind" of earlier MMOs like EQ1. I really hope future games can eliminate the old-school grind models while simultaneously avoiding the newer style of solo quest grinding that is so prevalent in games from WoW to EQ2 and beyond. How this can be done, I can't really say. If you've got any ideas, I'd really like to hear them! |
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