Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

MMOs are supposed to be timeless, the dev team should create with the intention of upgrading every 5 years, and whne i say upgrading i mean, revamping the engine, redoing hte texture, if the game is successful enough they should be willing to say, alright, we are going to relaunch the game with a new engine, new features and up to date graphics but the core game is still the same, all other data like character and stuff will transfer over.

 

But instead every mmo seems to be made with a timeline, they just plan to replace it again after a year or two so who cares if it sucks.

 

EVE is the only that seems to be timeless.  They've updated the graphics, continually add new content in free expansions (big one recently with the addition of wormholes), and in general keep upgrading things.  Lag has been reduced a hell of a lot by upgrading server hardware.  We'll be walking in stations soon (right CCP, RIGHT?).

It has its problems of course, but with EVE, there really IS no limit.  People talk of eventually colonizing planets and moving to planet-level gameplay.  There is so much they can do with the game based on the way it was designed.  However, your traditional MMO is a bit more limited because about the only thing they can do is to continue releasing content (new classes, new raids, new lands, etc.) and maybe other things like PvP gametypes.  Which isn't bad, but eventually, the content is played through and the community begins to shrink.

Eve is the only MMO that can give me depth of play thats not yet seen in SP games.

Eves graphics are  on par with consoles and the whole games brings a totoally different experience.

New MMOs are just Below average SP games with a chat box.

 

 

EVE works because it's in space. I think making trees and grass that realistically sway in the breeze with shadows, water with reflections and reactions, snow, rain, wind, clouds, etc. is a bit  harder than generating stars.

 

I don;t care how much empty space eve has, the game looks freaking awesome!!!

The game plays differently than everything else and the freedom you have in Eve is unmatched in todays MMOs.

Maybe Devs should stop making MMOs if they can't keep up? CCP has proven they could keep up. Wtf is wrong with these other Devs?

Hell look at the top grossing MMO, its graphics and gameplay are features we've seen on the original Xbox!

Originally posted by dstar.

Originally posted by Mazin

Originally posted by SgtFrog

mmo is still a new genre and still quite experimental, you know you need to give it time, mmorpg has only really been evolving for a few years.

 

UO (which is really the first major mmorpg) came out in '97.  I don't think you can use "new genre" excuse much longer.

 

You really can't.  UO, EQ 1, Asherons Call 1 were all released in the same little frame of time.  The genre has taken each of those games and expanded on them since then.  The genre really hasn't gone anywhere in terms of gameplay for almost 12 years now.  Then again it's not like some companies don't try, it's just what the majority wants.

Ummm......yes MMO's are still a new genre.

For example, you could watch TV in 1947 (compare to UO's 1997). Would you then say a TV show that had come out in 1959 was not early in the television Genre?

No one in their right mind would say TV from the late fifties represent a tired old genre - they instead are considered part of the 'new genre'.

Just because you were a child when mmo's were first created doesn't make it an old genre, it makes you a young person.

Originally posted by SgtFrog

mmo is still a new genre and still quite experimental, you know you need to give it time, mmorpg has only really been evolving for a few years.

Yea .

2018 MMOs will be great !

Originally posted by JGMIII

I'm tired of the genre that is 5+ years behind current technology.

I'm sorry guys, I don't give a shit if its impossible to create a game as good looking as Single player games and keep that Massive feel of MMOs. I'm tired of how low tech MMOs look and play.

Just to keep a massive feel we need to play games with terrible combat mechanics, bad storylines and Repetitive gameplay?

If It wasn't for Eve I think I would have uninstalled every MMO I have on my PC after seeing these E3 Previews the last couple days.

I'm tired of it, there's just no excuse for new MMOs being on par visually with games 5-6 years old.

Just look at the games at E3 and now look at the game you fire up almost everynight for the "Massive" feel. It's pathetic and I give up.

With the exception of Eve, I'm done. Just look at games like Lost planet 2 and Mass effect 2 it makes me sick how fucking awesome they look.  Don't give me that shit that You can;t compare Single player games to MMOs because thats the god damn MMO devs that are brain washing your ass. The MMO devs are lazy and they know you will pay for 5+ year old looking games for that "Massive" Hook.

I've ordered myself a Xbox 360 and I await true evolution of video games, because it's totally not in the MMO genre.

Wow you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please never post again. Ever.

If you cannot grasp the limitations of technology then you have no ground to complain about technology.

Your post is like saying "Why can't I drive a flying car that goes 10,000 MPH and doesn't take use any gas?"

MMOs are about gameplay and as you said the MMO feel, graphics are usually taken care of ater all else has been planed and tuned, which is later changed based on beta feedback. For me games are about how fun they are so i dont mind. I got the new consoles but barely have any games, the one I got most for is the Wii atm since they have very interesting controls for the games. For PS3 only got 2 games, everything else I play on it are PS2 games since most new ones focus more on graphics than how the game plays in my point of view.

Each one has their own reasons to play games, so for me is that it has to be easy to get into, hard to master, a different/interesting  way to play, and hard to beat.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Kyleran

Can't agree with the OP, gameplay over graphics everyday, and no MMO will ever be able to compete with current single player games in terms of how "pretty" they look.

 

If MMOs had superior gameplay I wouldn;t be here making this thread.

Today's MMOs are extremely limited gameplay wise, the nice graphics are just what broke the camels back.

You can't possibly believe MMOs have better gameplay than Sp games.

Back when console games were limited yeah old MMOs were leaps above console and Sp games. A game like UO and even EQ had shit that Console gamers never even seen before.

But now Sp games are the ones with the nice physics engines and awesome freaking storylines and depth of play.

While MMOs are watered down and near worthless.

Couldn't agree more - I hope with the dawn of cloud computing that we will get past this barrier and that mmorpg creators don't have to cater to the lowest common denominator and build MMORPGs with game mechanics and graphics that rival the top single player games. Until then, we're second rate customers.

Originally posted by dstar.

Originally posted by X-Porter

Originally posted by Remus3

- in essence, yes im SICK of hearing you consumers complain about EVERY FREAKING LITTLE THING when you have no clue to how in depth we have to work ourselves just to pull a prototype out of our bums to show our investors;

 

 

How not to run a business.

And I assume your the grand business diety that has the perfect solution when dealing with consumers who complain about every little thing? My answer is simple, Leave if you dont like it. If you're going to stay actually put forth HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS TO FIX IT. Not meaningless banter about the same thing that wasnt fixed 2 minutes ago when you found it.

 

Hehe my thoughts exactly when I read that. 

Congrats you just joined the bandwagon of narrow minded individuals.. how does it feel?

im speaking about you people who complain here. the "polished" games still have their bugs and will for quite some time, nothing will be perfect and all to posters of threads here as seen as the " I can do it better" .. well shit man i dont see you doing it. and where has senseless bashing gotten people? absolutely nowhere- yes its been said that certain models blow ass, does it mean there should be a new thread every 3 minutes on it for 4 days?

No. If you don't like how things are handled .. guess what, that ye ole truism is still working."Dont like it. Then you can just leave"

- in response to the poster before this quote about " I dont care how hard it is to make a game"

Well sorry to burst your bubble that you take our hard work for granted and expect we are sloths because you think you know it better and can be our boss.. doesnt work that way. Be an active member of mmo forwardness and try and figure out WHY it is as it is. Otherwise your just an ignorant buffoon, Good day sir.

edit in:

Lydeck :: "God, would you shut up? People don't quit games because they look bad, people trash and quit games because they suck.

We can bitch because we're buying the garbage some companies put out. You can STFU and take it because you're getting PAID to create said game. "

- why should i be quite about my game which i am proud to be making and breaking the current mold. I never said that people leave because of graphics or the like; TBH I love 2d games as much as 3d no matter the quality.

We can bitch because you buy a game. Really? You're the one who bought it with outreading reviews, and if you did what are you expecting? a glitch free environment on quality of a game that has matured over 6 years development+release; Did you read any of the things i stated? and why should i STFU, its my privledge here to post and try to understand what makes the medium population of dopes like yourself tick and how to correct it from happening.
 

Yeah So I picked up Gears of War 2 and Fable 2 yesterday.

I knew how good Gears of War would be since I beat the first one on PC but jesus christ I was not prepared for a Rpg that completely proves that every MMO dev is near worthless.

Maybe the Fable guys will make a MMO and teach these newbs how to actually make a quality game?

Not only has my gaming experience gone to a new level quality wise, My wife is freaking happy that im playing regular games that could be paused.

Guess it's a win on two fronts.  I get to enjoy quality games and make the wife happier that im not playing MMOs.

To the other guys talking shit in this thread, just stfu. Until MMO developers can release a quality product on the level of Current Sp games you will always be playing inferior games made by failures of the Video game industry.

What a freaking waste, sitting around waiting for a game with a 6-8 year dev cycle just to find out they suck even compared to low budget Sp titles.

I've seen the light, Gl in hell.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by SgtFrog

mmo is still a new genre and still quite experimental, you know you need to give it time, mmorpg has only really been evolving for a few years.

 

Yea .

2018 MMOs will be great !

You seem to be unhappy with games/developer in every genre, maybe you should just stop gameing all together.

To put it short: You haven't really thought this out. You don't really know what you're talking about. I respect your opinion, even with how off it is though.

Lengthy:

All games have been devolving as far as story and complexity goes over the last decade. There are very few games that live up to the kind of grand scale older games had. More and more games today are being made off of one-shot gimmicks that are interesting, but consume so much of the game developement that story and quality characters are left behind. There are exceptions to this for sure, but they're becoming fewer and fewer these days.

You must not have checked out the right mmo's or they were low-res videos or something, cause I'm seeing quite a few that are using current gen graphics. Aion is one, on even near-max settings the graphics are most certainly on-par with current releases. Global Agenda is another one, using the UT3 engine (current btw). Huxley is another (also UT3 engine), SW:TOR doesn't look -entirely- in current gen, but it's not 4+years old. Four years ago the pixel compression and modelling capabilities was extremely different than things from even two years ago.

Mortal Online is pretting much first gen 360 or maybe PS3 graphics, they're using another popular engine that I can't recall at the moment.

Black Prophecy is yet another one that if you see a video with an actually good resolution on it you'll see what I mean.

Again I honestly don't know what videos you saw, but the videos I've seen and gameplay I've personally experienced in the above (only played Aion so far...winkwink) are certainly visually on par with any single-player game I've played over the past year. Maybe if you look at some videos from mmo's that you know....aren't from terrible companies you'll see what I mean.

A list of other future mmo's to check out for graphics:

Tera, Secret World, Kingdom of Fire (yes an 'mmo' version of this RTS classic is being made), SUN (this game has been out for awhile actually, still looks at least 360 quality. If you don't believe me then go look at something like Too Human, a 360 release).

Here's a link for the SUN E3 trailer: http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-06-06/20090606003734100.shtml

Black Prophecy video page: http://blackprophecy-game.com/index.php?id=5

Section 8 E3 trailer (cinematic): http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-06-06/20090606000354422,1.shtml

All of those games have graphics at least on par with something like Crysis (and in the case of Aion is built on the same engine). So maybe you need to watch some videos that aren't for games made for five year olds or something, cause I have no idea what you're talking about.

PS: Aion has awesome gameplay, even if it isn't anything new. You rarely see any games these days, SP or otherwise, that truly innovate on gameplay. Think how many games a year come about that actually introduce something new as far as gameplay. What number do you come up with? One? Two? I can't think of more than a handful that have come out over the past three years that have actually introduced innovation as far as gameplay goes.

A proper MMO will still do something that no single-player games can do, some more than others, and that is a sense of community and permanance. Games like Earthrise, EVE and MO (Earthrise and MO, we'll have to see about this) will do this to an extent that no single-player game ever will, and they look pretty too.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

To put it short: You haven't really thought this out. You don't really know what you're talking about. I respect your opinion, even with how off it is though.

Lengthy:

All games have been devolving as far as story and complexity goes over the last decade. There are very few games that live up to the kind of grand scale older games had. More and more games today are being made off of one-shot gimmicks that are interesting, but consume so much of the game developement that story and quality characters are left behind. There are exceptions to this for sure, but they're becoming fewer and fewer these days.

You must not have checked out the right mmo's or they were low-res videos or something, cause I'm seeing quite a few that are using current gen graphics. Aion is one, on even near-max settings the graphics are most certainly on-par with current releases. Global Agenda is another one, using the UT3 engine (current btw). Huxley is another (also UT3 engine), SW:TOR doesn't look -entirely- in current gen, but it's not 4+years old. Four years ago the pixel compression and modelling capabilities was extremely different than things from even two years ago.

Mortal Online is pretting much first gen 360 or maybe PS3 graphics, they're using another popular engine that I can't recall at the moment.

Black Prophecy is yet another one that if you see a video with an actually good resolution on it you'll see what I mean.

Again I honestly don't know what videos you saw, but the videos I've seen and gameplay I've personally experienced in the above (only played Aion so far...winkwink) are certainly visually on par with any single-player game I've played over the past year. Maybe if you look at some videos from mmo's that you know....aren't from terrible companies you'll see what I mean.

 

A list of other future mmo's to check out for graphics:

Tera, Secret World, Kingdom of Fire (yes an 'mmo' version of this RTS classic is being made), SUN (this game has been out for awhile actually, still looks at least 360 quality. If you don't believe me then go look at something like Too Human, a 360 release).

Here's a link for the SUN E3 trailer: http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-06-06/20090606003734100.shtml

Black Prophecy video page: http://blackprophecy-game.com/index.php?id=5

Section 8 E3 trailer (cinematic): http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-06-06/20090606000354422,1.shtml

All of those games have graphics at least on par with something like Crysis (and in the case of Aion is built on the same engine). So maybe you need to watch some videos that aren't for games made for five year olds or something, cause I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

PS: Aion has awesome gameplay, even if it isn't anything new. You rarely see any games these days, SP or otherwise, that truly innovate on gameplay. Think how many games a year come about that actually introduce something new as far as gameplay. What number do you come up with? One? Two? I can't think of more than a handful that have come out over the past three years that have actually introduced innovation as far as gameplay goes.

A proper MMO will still do something that no single-player games can do, some more than others, and that is a sense of community and permanance. Games like Earthrise, EVE and MO (Earthrise and MO, we'll have to see about this) will do this to an extent that no single-player game ever will, and they look pretty too.

You do realize that every game you listed is not yet released in NA/Euro right?

With the exception of Eve (A game I will continue to play), the rest of the genre is pretty lack luster.

Anyway, we will see in a couple years how things go. I refuse to play bad videogames while waiting for ToR or ER. I'll play my 360 and PC games until something that actually makes the MMO genre appealing again comes along.

Originally posted by JGMIII

You do realize that every game you listed is not yet released in NA/Euro right?

With the exception of Eve (A game I will continue to play), the rest of the genre is pretty lack luster.

Anyway, we will see in a couple years how things go. I refuse to play bad videogames while waiting for ToR or ER. I'll play my 360 and PC games until something that actually makes the MMO genre appealing again comes along.

I don't know how you find the combat in Eve fun...
It's basically just knowing that to use and when to use them...
otherwise it's just auto-attack until it dead.

I also can't understand how someone would to sit in any MMO and craft all day, and have fun doing it.
So I guess it's the same thing....

I consider the Combat and Controls in Eve to be lack luster... Just not engaging enough to keep me interested.
 

OP: I think you're missing out on one key factor as to why graphics in MMOs are less than single player games. And that's the sheer scale that MMOs have to adapt to. Unlike single player games, which are able to be hard coded to certain specs, MMOs have to conform to a variety of computer specs. Not only that, but they have to take those computer specs into account on how many people will be in a general area at any given time.

The thing with single player games is that the scripts and coding are designed to limit that amount drawn in any area at any time. MMOs have players doing whatever they want, whenever they want. If you put the graphics of a top end game into an MMO setting, when enough people are in a zone or standing around, then you will see very high reductions in your frames per second and overall lag. Not to mention if you are expecting the game to run a reliable physics engine, then you have to make sure every single polygon is doing exactly what it's supposed to.

With the high polygon counts that are able to go into the single player games, the physics processing of a server and collision detection will just freak. It's, at the moment, impossible to create a high poly MMO with today's mainstream technology. To achieve those kinds of graphics for everyone, everyone will need to drop about $12,000 on a new computer. Let's face it, if that's what it takes to play an MMO, I'm pretty sure nobody is going to be playing an MMO except for the super rich.

It's not a matter of not being able to create a high polygon, full rendered 3D environment, it's a matter of hardware accessibility for the masses.

Gah. I cannot believe some people are daft enough to think that technology actually exists to allow MMOs to perform like a singleplayer game. Why would anyone make a singleplayer game if you could have all of that in a multiplayer game?

You CANNOT have a game that looks like that and enjoy a "massive" experience. Get that through your skulls. If they did make a game with all of the flashy graphics and shitty HDR that all new games have you could go ahead and castrate a ton of potential subscribers. There just aren't enough PCs that can handle it; some can barely handle a singleplayer version.

Do you think people are playing WoW because of its fantastic graphics? No. They might be playing because of its artistic style - but not technologically advanced graphics. Thats all flash. It's something you don't really care about when a game has a good idea or is fun.

~rant off~

MMOs are such a big endeavor for developers that they don't want to take chances. Get a quick buck and pull out. Very few get that long term success like WoW - if any since. It probably won't change; WoW has really played its cards right. It is completely unfair of some of you to use WoW as a scapegoat for de-evolution of the genre, too. Blame the shitty developers who thought they could get away with making the same game as Blizzard with a different face; often an uglier, analogically speaking, face.

Originally posted by lornphoenix

Originally posted by JGMIII

You do realize that every game you listed is not yet released in NA/Euro right?

With the exception of Eve (A game I will continue to play), the rest of the genre is pretty lack luster.

Anyway, we will see in a couple years how things go. I refuse to play bad videogames while waiting for ToR or ER. I'll play my 360 and PC games until something that actually makes the MMO genre appealing again comes along.

I don't know how you find the combat in Eve fun...
It's basically just knowing that to use and when to use them...
otherwise it's just auto-attack until it dead.

I also can't understand how someone would to sit in any MMO and craft all day, and have fun doing it.
So I guess it's the same thing....

I consider the Combat and Controls in Eve to be lack luster... Just not engaging enough to keep me interested.
 

 

It's the uniqueness of Eve that keeps me playing.

Eve isn't for everyone but there's no denying that nothing on the market plays quite like eve.

Believe me if I could get a similar experience playing a Console game I would.

Also I don't craft in Eve at all. You say Eve's not engaging? Well I personally think Every MMO being exactly the same in Leveling, questing and combat mechanics isn't engaging also.

Atleast Eve tries to be different.

Are any of you familiar with the graphics in Mount and Blade?  What about the game combat of M&B?  OMG...just give me graphics like M&B and the combat machenics of M&B and the skill system and character progression of M&B and plop it down in a game like Vanguard or AoC and I am a going to play that game for many years - many years.   ^_^

Am I a fan of M&B - yep.   Best game combat system ever developed.   Just needs a few tweaks here and there and OMG...::sigh:: - if only.  

As far as i know; its possible to make a game with massive combats + good graphics w/e available. Look at Aion or Lineage 2 for example, problem is its a huge chunk of money trying to make a game like that. But i do agree that the market needs something new... I am waiting for Lineage 3 for now hoping it to be as good as L2 have been... Aion till then i guess.

Also i wonder; what 'new' do you want out of a MMORPG genre? in my opinion its a genre that needs polishing not to evolve. Sorry for my bad english. : )

Aion feels nice graphically for me on my computer.

Although MMOs tend to get graphically outdated fast, the engines probably aren't flexible enough to allow evolution to take part on the game, as the ever-changing world is part of the MMO genre that takes it apart from the other genres that you see a release, one or two patches, an expansion pack, and then move on to the sequel.

Originally posted by SgtFrog

they look awseome but are they awseome? allot of people are complaining about newer (non-mmo)games aswell, all flash and poor content. well poor compared to the stories of games that came out a decade ago.

The games of the early days HAD to have kick-ass storylines because the graphics were awful. The storyline was EVERYTHING and the only thing capable of "hooking" the player.
 

Most games these days rely on graphics at the expense of story. It's unfortunate and I think it will get much worse before it gets better.

But isn't that in-line with the rest of our society? We value image over substance in just about every aspect of our lives. Video games are just carrying on the tradition.

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

I think star wars the old republic will be the first real MMORPG. Its the first MMo promising to focus on the story, and nto just trying to see how many people they can jam onto a server at one time. The hero engine is pretty impressive, and i think st:tor will show people that, so basically while i am waiting for AIon and champions online, i have faith that SW TOR will not dissapoint.

I agree however, PC is the strongest gaming rig out there, and every MMO is always years behind what the pc is capable of , so far  behind that morons actually belive consoles are the best system

 

I think you are going to be in for a shock.  SWTOR is shaping up to be the purist theme-park game ever made, heavy on the solo play.  It may be an MMO, but I don't think it's going to be much of an MMORPG.

 

What makes you believe that will shock me, i hapen to like the idea of cinimatic combat, and solo emphasis. Most of the time i only feel like playing in small groups, 2 to 3 people and only really want to do multiplayer in pvp, another solo thing, the only community interaction i really do while leveling if i can help it is sell items to otehr players.

 

Its going to online, story driven, interactive in both the combat and how the story goes for your personal character, and there are missions that can be influenced by you alone and a full party. What part of MMORPG are you missing, sounds like you just confirm the whole "Gamers have no idea what they want" THought mentioned earlier. MMOs arent twiched based, so all of them are on some track, Bioware doesnt hide the fact that it is, and i think they will do a good job when launch comes.

 

I know what Star wars is offering, ive been following it since it was announced, and all the things you put down as cons are the things i actually would enjoy experiencing.

Yes, but what you are describing is not, as you said, an MMORPG.

It's an SRPG Online with some Multiplayer Hubs.