Originally posted by mnkymn161

First off, I'd like to mention that all I've done is the 14-day trial, so I'm in no way an expert on LOTRO. I may not have played enough to be fully immersed in the game, but I felt like sharing my thoughts nonetheless.

 

As the title states, I don't think this game should have such a high rating. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against it (I've been a Tolkien fan ever since I learned to read, and felt that the game perfectly complemented the books and movies); however, I don't think LOTRO is anything special. I could spend all day listing the similarities it has with WoW, but that would get boring, and most of you probably noticed them anyway. Mostly, though, I just thought LOTRO quickly got boring. The graphics are great; they're what drew me in initially. But for anyone who has ever played WoW, or any of its seemingly infinite clones, everything about this game will seem very redundant. In my 14 days of playing, I found absolutely nothing new or innovative. There was definitely nothing worth another $15 a month.

So, does anyone out there agree with me? Feel free to share your thoughts.

I agree with you about lotro is boring and so is wow but that does not make lotro a wow clone. All boring games are not wow clones,and since wow did copy it's content from other games then no game is a wow clone.

Originally posted by Vidir

Originally posted by mnkymn161

First off, I'd like to mention that all I've done is the 14-day trial, so I'm in no way an expert on LOTRO. I may not have played enough to be fully immersed in the game, but I felt like sharing my thoughts nonetheless.

 

As the title states, I don't think this game should have such a high rating. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against it (I've been a Tolkien fan ever since I learned to read, and felt that the game perfectly complemented the books and movies); however, I don't think LOTRO is anything special. I could spend all day listing the similarities it has with WoW, but that would get boring, and most of you probably noticed them anyway. Mostly, though, I just thought LOTRO quickly got boring. The graphics are great; they're what drew me in initially. But for anyone who has ever played WoW, or any of its seemingly infinite clones, everything about this game will seem very redundant. In my 14 days of playing, I found absolutely nothing new or innovative. There was definitely nothing worth another $15 a month.

So, does anyone out there agree with me? Feel free to share your thoughts.

 

I agree with you about lotro is boring and so is wow but that does not make lotro a wow clone. All boring games are not wow clones,and since wow did copy it's content from other games then no game is a wow clone.

I also agree with both games being boring fast.
 

but what do we have then?

a boring game with a successful game background, warcraft strategy games appealing 11.5 Million players and another boring game with THE MOST APPEALING FANTASY LICENSE AVAILABLE ON THE PLANET appealing far less than a million players.

So why is that?

Brilliant Marketing of Blizzard vs lousy marketing of Turbine? That shall make a difference of 3000%? nope

A glitch in the Matrix?

No, the reason is: the OP is right - its a clone. Not directly a WoW maybe but an MMO clone, nothing new - nothing that would cause anyone currently in an MMO community and happy there to leave it just for the new game experience.

When WoW came out it was the first:

The first game easy enough to progress even when playing it casual, you never felt left behind in WoW like you did in EQ DAoC or other early titles. Its also the reason EvE will never be the big success a fan would believe it could have, because EvE drastically gives you the feeling that you are late, you are behind, you will never catch up you are chanceless.

From this point of view LOTRO is similar to WoW, but 6 years late.

WoW's huge success has alot to do with being the first game of its time that was casual friendly, that made it special and brought back lots of players who tried and liked EQ, DAoC but never had the time to invest. Now we have dozens of casual friendly games LOTRO being just another one of them.

Originally posted by Bursche

 

 Its also the reason EvE will never be the big success a fan would believe it could have, because EvE drastically gives you the feeling that you are late, you are behind, you will never catch up you are chanceless.

one more thing I think we can disagree on, currently playing EvE along with LoTRO, just started EvE this month. I don't feel in the least bit left behind. Perhaps you would be better off playing "easy" mode games like WoW and AoC. Or maybe ones that are really group centric so you can ride the coat tails. Ones that offer a challenge seen to frustrate you.

Originally posted by Professor78

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Bursche

Hi again Professor, and thanks much for the laugh, as i said THIN lol.

This pretty much proves the point the part of my post that you chose to ignore.  The prose in the quests that he linked is far more evocative than is the norm among main stream MMOs. They read like something from a professional writer, rather than the amateurish crap we usually get in MMOs.  I also listed examples from a half dozen other MMOs of what I consider to be "good writing" to try and give you an idea of where I'm coming from on this.   But you are obviously not here to have a conversation.

The quest dialogue in LoTRO is not fine literature by any stretch, but it's sure a hell of a lot better than average. 

 

 

Well said. Obviously some people don't appreciate good writing. Which brings me back to my earlier point of the general playstyle of most - Click, click, click - run off and do....I used to be like that myself, until I realised that I was missing out a huge part of the game - and the most immersive.

You guys may have a point there but I think most people start to lose interest  in the descriptive stories after about the 50th trivial little chore gets piled on to their to-do list.  After a while it really doesn't matter how good the writing is, it's just another chore added to the pile.

And this is something I've discovered that I really, really hate.  This quest grinding stuff.  To me it feels like I'm back in grade school having homework piled on top of homework.  I just want to play and have fun, I don't want spend all my time doing chores for NPCs.  Yes, yes...technically you don't have to do that stuff but games that are designed to be played that way suck even worse if you try to force them to be something they're not.

I agree with the people who say that LoTRO is almost identical to WoW.  I sure couldn't tell the difference.  But I didn't play either all that long so I could be missing something.  Basically, a friend practically forced me to play WoW for a couple of months in attempt to get me hooked.  I hated it and honestly I still don't understand why anyone likes it.

A short time after that I tried the LoTRO trial and it felt like I was right back in WoW again.  The graphics had a different style but other than that the two games seemed interchangable to me. 

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by Professor78

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Bursche

Hi again Professor, and thanks much for the laugh, as i said THIN lol.

This pretty much proves the point the part of my post that you chose to ignore.  The prose in the quests that he linked is far more evocative than is the norm among main stream MMOs. They read like something from a professional writer, rather than the amateurish crap we usually get in MMOs.  I also listed examples from a half dozen other MMOs of what I consider to be "good writing" to try and give you an idea of where I'm coming from on this.   But you are obviously not here to have a conversation.

The quest dialogue in LoTRO is not fine literature by any stretch, but it's sure a hell of a lot better than average. 

 

 

Well said. Obviously some people don't appreciate good writing. Which brings me back to my earlier point of the general playstyle of most - Click, click, click - run off and do....I used to be like that myself, until I realised that I was missing out a huge part of the game - and the most immersive.

 

You guys may have a point there but I think most people start to lose interest  in the descriptive stories after about the 50th trivial little chore gets piled on to their to-do list.  After a while it really doesn't matter how good the writing is, it's just another chore added to the pile.

Which is one reason why LoTRO isn't for everyone.   Some players don't enjoy or care about the stories that emerge from the quest chains.  And some players simply don't enjoy quest driven leveling in MMOs.   If that describes you, you likely won't find LoTRO to be your cup of tea.   Or WoW, or EQ II, or any number of other Diku MUD style MMOs for that matter.

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Bursche

 

 Its also the reason EvE will never be the big success a fan would believe it could have, because EvE drastically gives you the feeling that you are late, you are behind, you will never catch up you are chanceless.

 

one more thing I think we can disagree on, currently playing EvE along with LoTRO, just started EvE this month. I don't feel in the least bit left behind. Perhaps you would be better off playing "easy" mode games like WoW and AoC. Or maybe ones that are really group centric so you can ride the coat tails. Ones that offer a challenge seen to frustrate you.

You can disagree all you want with me, i dont really care. To me this was just another pathetic and failed attempt to make me look stupid. I have helped dozens - if not hundreds of EvE beginners getting started - i talked to so many of them i know which concerns repeat regularly - and thats the "is it worth starting now? will i ever catch up" sort of questions.

So keep trying - maybe you get better at it one day.

PS: if i wanted to play an easy mode MMO, i'd be a LOTRO fanboy - just like you.

No disrespect meant, but when people say XX game is a WoW-clone, it appears as if  their first MMO was WoW, much like someone whose first music-love was the Spice Girls and consider every other female group a "Spice Girls Clone".

Seriously, get over it.  WoW was not the first MMO.  It stole more than people since have borrowed from it.   By suggesting WoW defined the genre is an insult to everything that came before it.

Funny, the only people that seem to toss around the phrase are those in which WoW was their entrance to MMOs.  News flash: they started well before WoW.

Furthermore, I would consider LOTRO much less WoW and more EQ2.

They are called DIKU MMOs.  Not WoW clones.  Not Everquest clones.  This formula was invented before MMOs even existed.

And guess what, this formula was very popular in MUDs too (where it was invented).  There is nothing surprising or interesting here.  Just the typical jingoistic crap combined with a lack of historical knowledge.

The only major change from an RPG structure perspective is the usage of a large amount of quests which could generally be completed locally in a fairly quick span.

But in the end you might as well credit single player RPGs for that one not WoW.

Whereas Everquest is almost a direct and exact clone of DIKU MUDs since it relies more on grinding out mob xp in particular areas.   Although this was trait of most all types of MUDs

But either way the class structure, class and item progression, area level structure, the way skills work.  All that stuff is a straight port from DIKU MUDs.  In EQ's case this is because EQ was actually a MUD first and then transformed into a MMO.  In WoW case its because Rob Pardo and other key designers were dedicated EQ players (and hardcore raiders) and copied the game.  

I am not sure why people insist on acting like this is new or amazing or the world is going to shit because of this.  This is simply a repeat of exactly what happened in MUDs about 15 years ago.  The only major difference is that MUDs had much less overhead and most of the code was free so you could get new or innovative MUDs stood up by a group of friends in a matter of months, whereas MMO are bound up to a small number seriously funded enterprises.

If you had randomly connected to MUD in 1994 1/2 of them would have been a DIKU MUD.  If somehow MUDs were invented yeserday a bunch of people woould bitch about how that MUD was some kind of WoW-clone in text.

This is an old formula and other than quests it has not altered much at all in the last 20 some odd years.  Personally I never liked the formula.  I didn't play MUDs to be locked down into a Theif or Cleric class who obtained the exact same abilities as every other guy at exactly the same level and lusted after the same very important gear.  I preferred the other MUDs with much more free form systems, the UO/AO/AC style MUDs.

But those MUDs were certainly less of the population and far less consistent.  The non-DIKU MUDs varied alot.  Some of the were VERY good.  The DIKU MUDs were extremely consistent often almost interchangable and extremely common.

You had something like a 2/3 1/3 split and that 1/3 that were the more free form sometimes skill based sometimes not or some partially skill base.  They could not really be grouped together that much unless they shared a code base and even the ones that shared a code base varied more from each other than most DIKU MUDs did.

The DIKU formula is very simple and in the end allows very little variation.  Most stuff is regimented and completely predictable.  Classes are the same,  abilities mostly the same.  Levels MUST create progression.  Gear MUST follow that progression.  Areas MUST follow that progression.  The predicatable and regimented nature of classes and their abilities are part of that progression mentality.  There are very obvious and hard definied goals.  This creates a sense of lusting after the next thing.  The whole formula revolves around progression and changing or freeing up any of it reduces that feeling and the players get mad.   Almost evey single DIKU MUD had a level cap, many with a remort system.  Remort being you "kill" your character to start over at level 1, you get a special "remort" ability and an XP penalty.  You wind up more powerful than a new character, but have to re-grind everything at a slower pace.  But either way even back then they knew that the DIKU paradigm eventually collapses in on itself and so they ALL have a level cap.  They have too.  And it is almost always around level 50 to 80.  Even the arbitrary math of the level cap is strangly consistent.  Compared to some LP MUDs which had no level cap or basically an infinite variety of skills to get.  Or an MMO like AO with skills and a level cap far above 200.

This is why the DIKU MUDs and by extension the DIKU MMO are so similar and why everyone wants to call the other games a clone of their favorite flavor of an old formula.  First of course they know that their favorite is not original so they need to prop their own ego by disparaging eveything else that is very similar to it to create a false sense of specialness.  Second is that the DIKU formula itself rapidly deteriorates when you deviate even slightly.  It is simple but powerful.  The whole thing is wrapped up around progression, but also creates a very simple and obvious comparison in the players minds.  Namely that something like gear must follow the same progression forumla as everything else.  If some piece of gear was made just for fun by a developer and does not follow the spreadsheet like paradigm in most players minds then it sucks.  Next move on your game sucks, the itemization is bad.  The formula itself really just involves multiple repetitions of the same design theme over the various aspects of the game.  Gear and class progression is really exactly the same thing and in a sense the only thing.  As soon as one aspect of the game does not meet the correct progression expectations then that game is deemed flawed.

This is why all DIKU games MUDs or MMO are incredibly similar.  The only additions or changes you can make are mostly cosmetic.  Everything else MUST follow a linear, regular and obvious level based progression.  Because this creates powerful goals in people's minds.  The encompassing and obvious the next step the more a player will lust after it.  If you make some of the progression less obvious or irregular you will reduce the passion evoked by the "next step".  From a DIKU perspective this means your game is flawed.  Because that is all a DIKU game is when you take out the fluff.  And this is also why there are always  level caps because this is inherently unstable and unsustainable.

I have literally never seen an MMO do the RPG stuff my favorite MUD did, which was not a DIKU MUD.  Not really even close.  I have played literally 10 "WoW clone" MUDs well before WoW was even conceived.  Didn't play them for long though.

In the end we could even make a case that this formula is older than the DIKU MUD phenomenon as it is really just a formalised and comprehensive version of the Monty Haul effect of D&D pen and paper campaigns.  But while I am fairly sure that the various people involved in generating the DIKU formula almost certainly played D&D campaigns with ever increasing power ups and cajoled their DMs into eventually giving their level15 Paladin a sword o1000 truths so that they could kill a god single handedly, each of those campaigns was different and while the underlying mentality is the same they do not exhibit the freakishly consistent patterns of DIKU MUDs and MMOs.  Mainly because most DMs resisted the Monty Haul idea and disrupted the pattern.

MUDs and MMOs take the DM out of the equation.  The Monty Haul effect is usually a player driven thing.  And thus we have the elegantly powerful simplicity of the DIKU formula.  Powerful but end the end fruitless, boring and neurotic in my opinion.

Which is one reason LOTRO seems more "mature" than WoW.  LOTRO purposely tried to keep the progression mania of the DIKU formula on a low simmer rather than a blazing bonfire.  Most older people eventually realize the shallowness and (in a long term perspective) futility of the DIKU formula.  A DIKU game is basically by definition a hamster wheel.  The question is whether or not there is some decoration and scenary to look at while you run in your wheel and whether or not it distracts you from the fact that you keep running on the same thing over and over.  WoW tries to distracts you or mask it treadmill but is incredibly Monty Haul.  LOTRO tries to give you other stuff to play around with and make the progression less powerfuland reduce the Monty Haul effect.  Therefore LOTRO seems somewhat more mature in a relative sense, because for those who like the DIKU formula the underlying Monty Haul effect has been dampened to a more reasonable level such that they feel it interferes less with other things and is less of a burden hanging over their heads.

Originally posted by gestalt11

 

They are called DIKU MMOs.  Not WoW clones.  Not Everquest clones.  This formula was invented before MMOs even existed.

 

And guess what, this formula was very popular in MUDs too (where it was invented).  There is nothing surprising or interesting here.  Just the typical jingoistic crap combined with a lack of historical knowledge.

 

The only major change from an RPG structure perspective is the usage of a large amount of quests which could generally be completed locally in a fairly quick span.

But in the end you might as well credit single player RPGs for that one not WoW.

Whereas Everquest is almost a direct and exact clone of DIKU MUDs since it relies more on grinding out mob xp in particular areas.   Although this was trait of most all types of MUDs

But either way the class structure, class and item progression, area level structure, the way skills work.  All that stuff is a straight port from DIKU MUDs.  In EQ's case this is because EQ was actually a MUD first and then transformed into a MMO.  In WoW case its because Rob Pardo and other key designers were dedicated EQ players (and hardcore raiders) and copied the game.  

 

I am not sure why people insist on acting like this is new or amazing or the world is going to shit because of this.  This is simply a repeat of exactly what happened in MUDs about 15 years ago.  The only major difference is that MUDs had much less overhead and most of the code was free so you could get new or innovative MUDs stood up by a group of friends in a matter of months, whereas MMO are bound up to a small number seriously funded enterprises.

 

If you had randomly connected to MUD in 1994 1/2 of them would have been a DIKU MUD.  If somehow MUDs were invented yeserday a bunch of people woould bitch about how that MUD was some kind of WoW-clone in text.

 

This is an old formula and other than quests it has not altered much at all in the last 20 some odd years.  Personally I never liked the formula.  I didn't play MUDs to be locked down into a Theif or Cleric class who obtained the exact same abilities as every other guy at exactly the same level and lusted after the same very important gear.  I preferred the other MUDs with much more free form systems, the UO/AO/AC style MUDs.

But those MUDs were certainly less of the population and far less consistent.  The non-DIKU MUDs varied alot.  Some of the were VERY good.  The DIKU MUDs were extremely consistent often almost interchangable and extremely common.

You had something like a 2/3 1/3 split and that 1/3 that were the more free form sometimes skill based sometimes not or some partially skill base.  They could not really be grouped together that much unless they shared a code base and even the ones that shared a code base varied more from each other than most DIKU MUDs did.

 

The DIKU formula is very simple and in the end allows very little variation.  Most stuff is regimented and completely predictable.  Classes are the same,  abilities mostly the same.  Levels MUST create progression.  Gear MUST follow that progression.  Areas MUST follow that progression.  The predicatable and regimented nature of classes and their abilities are part of that progression mentality.  There are very obvious and hard definied goals.  This creates a sense of lusting after the next thing.  The whole formula revolves around progression and changing or freeing up any of it reduces that feeling and the players get mad.   Almost evey single DIKU MUD had a level cap, many with a remort system.  Remort being you "kill" your character to start over at level 1, you get a special "remort" ability and an XP penalty.  You wind up more powerful than a new character, but have to re-grind everything at a slower pace.  But either way even back then they knew that the DIKU paradigm eventually collapses in on itself and so they ALL have a level cap.  They have too.  And it is almost always around level 50 to 80.  Even the arbitrary math of the level cap is strangly consistent.  Compared to some LP MUDs which had no level cap or basically an infinite variety of skills to get.  Or an MMO like AO with skills and a level cap far above 200.

 

This is why the DIKU MUDs and by extension the DIKU MMO are so similar and why everyone wants to call the other games a clone of their favorite flavor of an old formula.  First of course they know that their favorite is not original so they need to prop their own ego by disparaging eveything else that is very similar to it to create a false sense of specialness.  Second is that the DIKU formula itself rapidly deteriorates when you deviate even slightly.  It is simple but powerful.  The whole thing is wrapped up around progression, but also creates a very simple and obvious comparison in the players minds.  Namely that something like gear must follow the same progression forumla as everything else.  If some piece of gear was made just for fun by a developer and does not follow the spreadsheet like paradigm in most players minds then it sucks.  Next move on your game sucks, the itemization is bad.  The formula itself really just involves multiple repetitions of the same design theme over the various aspects of the game.  Gear and class progression is really exactly the same thing and in a sense the only thing.  As soon as one aspect of the game does not meet the correct progression expectations then that game is deemed flawed.

 

This is why all DIKU games MUDs or MMO are incredibly similar.  The only additions or changes you can make are mostly cosmetic.  Everything else MUST follow a linear, regular and obvious level based progression.  Because this creates powerful goals in people's minds.  The encompassing and obvious the next step the more a player will lust after it.  If you make some of the progression less obvious or irregular you will reduce the passion evoked by the "next step".  From a DIKU perspective this means your game is flawed.  Because that is all a DIKU game is when you take out the fluff.  And this is also why there are always  level caps because this is inherently unstable and unsustainable.

 

I have literally never seen an MMO do the RPG stuff my favorite MUD did, which was not a DIKU MUD.  Not really even close.  I have played literally 10 "WoW clone" MUDs well before WoW was even conceived.  Didn't play them for long though.

 

In the end we could even make a case that this formula is older than the DIKU MUD phenomenon as it is really just a formalised and comprehensive version of the Monty Haul effect of D&D pen and paper campaigns.  But while I am fairly sure that the various people involved in generating the DIKU formula almost certainly played D&D campaigns with ever increasing power ups and cajoled their DMs into eventually giving their level15 Paladin a sword o1000 truths so that they could kill a god single handedly, each of those campaigns was different and while the underlying mentality is the same they do not exhibit the freakishly consistent patterns of DIKU MUDs and MMOs.  Mainly because most DMs resisted the Monty Haul idea and disrupted the pattern.

 

MUDs and MMOs take the DM out of the equation.  The Monty Haul effect is usually a player driven thing.  And thus we have the elegantly powerful simplicity of the DIKU formula.  Powerful but end the end fruitless, boring and neurotic in my opinion.

 

Which is one reason LOTRO seems more "mature" than WoW.  LOTRO purposely tried to keep the progression mania of the DIKU formula on a low simmer rather than a blazing bonfire.  Most older people eventually realize the shallowness and (in a long term perspective) futility of the DIKU formula.  A DIKU game is basically by definition a hamster wheel.  The question is whether or not there is some decoration and scenary to look at while you run in your wheel and whether or not it distracts you from the fact that you keep running on the same thing over and over.  WoW tries to distracts you or mask it treadmill but is incredibly Monty Haul.  LOTRO tries to give you other stuff to play around with and make the progression less powerfuland reduce the Monty Haul effect.  Therefore LOTRO seems somewhat more mature in a relative sense, because for those who like the DIKU formula the underlying Monty Haul effect has been dampened to a more reasonable level such that they feel it interferes less with other things and is less of a burden hanging over their heads.

 

Lots of thinking and certainly a lot of true stuff in your long posting there. I agree on alot of things, especially the green part but disagree on the yellow part.

You are completely right with the classes, abilities, levels, equipment are identical. But in older and better MMO's carreers are not.

In Everquest two level 50 druids or wizards who met for the first time will have gone through completely different adventures and equipment, they wear different equipment (with similar stats), yeah but most of it comes from different places - it always amazed me when i looked at other players equipment who had the same class how many items where different. Usually i only found 2 or 3 identical items within their 20 or so slots. I played EQ hardcore in a raiding guild and saw most of the dragons and bosses die but i also had the same class in a family guild on a different server and the 2 toons had nothing, not the slightest thing in common but their class name. Logging from one to the other was logging into another game almost.

The same counts for Eve Online or Ryzom, players with similar /played time will have completely different carreers and character history.

Now LOTRO on the other hand does not only provide 100% identical classes, 100% identical items, 100% identical stats but also - and thats the killer: almost 100% identical carreers. There is no such thing as a choice for your own carreer. That history was already pre-written by turbine designers and is set in stone. In Eve you can choos to be a miner, bounty hunter, research and what not in the big pool of identical stats and skills you can create a unique carreer. In LOTRO you can't, you follow the identical quest lines - its like mass tourist attractions, you are herded through the theme park on iron rails with near to  0 alternatives. The canalised design is exagerated to a degree that even different classes share most of the carreer. And the reason is not because of the story like turbine tries to tell you or the fanboys here keep repeating. The reason is money. Such a design for an MMO is far cheaper than an open design, because you dont have to balance carreers, you only have to look that each class has some buttons to klick while in the tourist bus through jurassic middle earth park.

So while i agree that many MMO's trend more to be DIKU's than open - LOTRO boosts that trend by taking away the more or less open and player choosen carreer.

Re: DIKU MMO's 

Wen I say a game is a "WoW clone", I don't mean that wow invented the formula. I mean that follow the same formula than WoW.   I also think is accurate description, because most WoW clones are  wow wanabees. 

Wen I read people that say "no, Is not a Wow clone, is a MMO clone" I feel sad. And I think that person have not played enough MMO games.    There are wildly different MMO's games that play really different.  Skill based,  world mmos,  games with space ships (like EVE),  games about crafting (like A Tale in the Deset).  I feel sad that exist people that think all games are like WoW.  

LOTRO is a good game, but at the time, was designed to be as similar as WOW as posible, withouth breaking the law. At it shows. 

Yet another troll post.... why again?

Anyway, if there is one game out there that could legitimately state that they are not a clone it would be LotRO which is based on novels by JR Tolkien with the Hobbit being written around 1937 well before WoW, D&D, EQ, umm the internet, personal computers, etc.

If you don't like LotRO then fair enough as not every game is for everyone. I played it for a bit but found the character design to be somewhat unappealing and the restrictrions in game play required to stay true to the novels frustrating. The game itself is well designed, well written and has a lot of good points but it wasn't for me. None of which make it a clone or somehow a product deserving of being slammed for both being a copy of some other game and not being as good as that game.

Stop wasting your life and our time posting about your paranoid clone theories and play some games and have some fun.

---

Originally posted by rwmiller

Yet another troll post.... why again?
Anyway, if there is one game out there that could legitimately state that they are not a clone it would be LotRO which is based on novels by JR Tolkien with the Hobbit being written around 1937 well before WoW, D&D, EQ, umm the internet, personal computers, etc.

---

We are talking about gameplay mechanics, not lore.

Anyway LOTRO break the lore often. The old world is supposed to be one where magic is ver rare, but from the start LOTRO has been full of magic everywhere. Since the Wow clone need a mague fireball trowing, there is one in LOTRO.

Also, everyone can get invisible in lotro, If roll a rogue.

---

If you don't like LotRO then fair enough as not every game is for everyone.

---

I like LOTRO. But is a Wow clone.

---

I played it for a bit but found the character design to be somewhat unappealing and the restrictrions in game play required to stay true to the novels frustrating. The game itself is well designed, well written and has a lot of good points but it wasn't for me. None of which make it a clone or somehow a product deserving of being slammed for both being a copy of some other game and not being as good as that game.

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Most games are a copy of other games, and that don't make then worst. The other way, some games are best because copy features from others. This is soo normal, that we have invented the "genres". The FPS games for games that clone Quake (or is wolfestein?). The RTS genre for games that clone Dune 2 (or older titles).

All games are composed of "features" these features are like genes, and new games always are created with a 90% of existing genes, plus news ideas (or stuff that feel like new ideas).

TL;DR:

Copying other games is not bad, and is the norm.

 I don't agree that LOTRO is a WoW clone.  I've played both for a very long time and they do not share the same deep core elements as each other.  LOTRO could be 10 times better than it is, but Turbine is weak compared to Blizzard.

Originally posted by Teiman

Re: DIKU MMO's 

 

Wen I say a game is a "WoW clone", I don't mean that wow invented the formula. I mean that follow the same formula than WoW.   I also think is accurate description, because most WoW clones are  wow wanabees. 

Wen I read people that say "no, Is not a Wow clone, is a MMO clone" I feel sad. And I think that person have not played enough MMO games.    There are wildly different MMO's games that play really different.  Skill based,  world mmos,  games with space ships (like EVE),  games about crafting (like A Tale in the Deset).  I feel sad that exist people that think all games are like WoW.  

LOTRO is a good game, but at the time, was designed to be as similar as WOW as posible, withouth breaking the law. At it shows. 

Wow's "formula" was developed from taking concepts from games that came out before it such as Everquest and Asheron's Call and improving upon those ideas and making them more casual player friendly.  So they actually do have a point when they gripe about people balking about games being a "WoW clone". 

I will agree with you about Eve though.  That game is about as different as you can get from other mmos.  I don't care for the game, but my hat goes off to them for making a unique game compared to the norm.  Outside of that one however they all seem to follow the same formula from what I have seen when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it.  Some mmos offer different mechanics, level of "difficulty", soloability variation, but the inherent concepts tend to be the same whether you're talking about Rings, WoW, Final Fantasy, etc.

Frankly, I love the genre so it works for me.  At this point those that complain about this just seem to be burned out on these types of games in general and probably just need a break from them for a while. Others want something that could never really exist because it just isn't realistically possible at least at this point in time.

 EDIT: Wow, should have read back a bit farther.  Gestalt's post explains it far better than I ever could have.  Very well said although I think Rings fits the model as well but I'm fine with that.  Whether they want to admit it or not most of the other games people try saying don't fit into that model do as well.

 Two words: Ultima Online

I agree that LOTRO gameplay is faintly familiar to WoW. But WoW is familiar to several other MMO's that came out before it. It is what happens in a stale industry like the current MMO market. Think of it like movies... X-Men came out and did extremley well, before you knew it we had a flood of movies based off the same principals. Music is the same way.... A new band comes out that everyone loves the sound of, next thing you know there are 20 other bands that have the same style popping up out of no where. Unlike the music industry, it seems the MMO industry is unable to get away from one base. In music you have so many different styles you do have a choice. MMO market is much different (with the exception of EVE as pointed out). They see what has been a huge hit and emulate it hoping to strike it big as well. This leads to terrible stagnation as is evident. Give it a few more years and someone will come out with something that will redefine the industry once again (I had hopes for Richard Garriott... we saw how that ended... FAIL).

I know I ramble, but hopefully you understood the post lol.

Originally posted by Analyser

 

Now LOTRO on the other hand does not only provide 100% identical classes, 100% identical items, 100% identical stats but also - and thats the killer: almost 100% identical carreers. There is no such thing as a choice for your own carreer. That history was already pre-written by turbine designers and is set in stone. In Eve you can choos to be a miner, bounty hunter, research and what not in the big pool of identical stats and skills you can create a unique carreer. In LOTRO you can't, you follow the identical quest lines - its like mass tourist attractions, you are herded through the theme park on iron rails with near to  0 alternatives. The canalised design is exagerated to a degree that even different classes share most of the carreer.

Very well put.

Many who did not like lotro could not put their finger on, why exactly. Because at first glance it is a solid game - good graphics, no obvious bugs and nice setting. What you say about LOTRO carreers is right, they are identically following the storylines and sharing most of the rewards. One big reason why i found it unintresting and boring.

The high rating here made me wander back to have another look at the game.

I have to agree with the OP. It's irritatingly lagtastic (I've given up on ever reaching level 20 without dying) , the graphics are so so, etc. etc. It's by no means an awful game, but it doesn't come close to deserving the top rating it has here.

The rune keeper class is a nice addition though. It'll broaden the game's appeal.

Originally posted by mnkymn161

First off, I'd like to mention that all I've done is the 14-day trial, so I'm in no way an expert on LOTRO. I may not have played enough to be fully immersed in the game, but I felt like sharing my thoughts nonetheless.

 

As the title states, I don't think this game should have such a high rating. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against it (I've been a Tolkien fan ever since I learned to read, and felt that the game perfectly complemented the books and movies); however, I don't think LOTRO is anything special. I could spend all day listing the similarities it has with WoW, but that would get boring, and most of you probably noticed them anyway. Mostly, though, I just thought LOTRO quickly got boring. The graphics are great; they're what drew me in initially. But for anyone who has ever played WoW, or any of its seemingly infinite clones, everything about this game will seem very redundant. In my 14 days of playing, I found absolutely nothing new or innovative. There was definitely nothing worth another $15 a month.

So, does anyone out there agree with me? Feel free to share your thoughts.

Its not a Wow clone remember Wow clone everquest so.

If done both WoW and LotRO since launch. Dropped WoW for LotRo and then tried all the others and came back to LotRO. Other people have stated it best, the professions are the same, the equipment is the same, the quest and lore are the same, which will ultimately doom LotRO.  Some pluses and problems:

1. LotRO is graphically a beautiful game, when you set the settings on ultra high and just look at the scenery its beautiful, not cartoony like WoW.

2. In the beginning at least, you can go through an entire area (like the shire) and do minimual combat. Its not as grinding at the start, when you leave the shire and enter bree then it the grinding begins.  The grindfest however never ends. Quests are always kill X mob and/or get X item from a mob. And deed grinding is the worst in the game.

3. What keeps most players playing is the end game. 90% of the game from levels 1-50 are pretty much solo with some exceptions. Heck you can go all 60 levels and NEVER join a group. But once you hit moria and you want the best gear and equipment you have no choice but to group, and this is why people keep playing it. Because they want to see how their class is in a group. Many many people have a ton of alts on the game (I have 4) and the biggest thrill was seeing for the first time how my class was in a group in a tough fight. I think that is what keeps people playing all the different  classes. Learning how differently a champ, guard, warden and capt can tank is a big thrill to people in the game. I know when I was in a group with a captain I thought how cool was that, so I rolled up a captain just to see how cool he is end game.

4. The Lore. The lore is great in this game. Its a mixture of what happens to frodo and the company and a lot of backstory that isnt fleshed out in the books or movies. Yet the story is compelling. WoW can make up its own lore and no one would really care.

5. Crafting. I never liked it (I was an explorer) thought it was a waste of time, and still do. It will ultimately either make the game or break it. Right now, the best gear and equipment can not be player made, which is a shame. The crafting system needs to be reworked so that if you cant run a 12 man raid and get lucky to get the best weapon that the next best thing can be made for you. Everyone running around with the same armor and gear makes for boring play. The weapon system tried to vary that  but it still is lame. You start with such a wide range of options and then it gets narrowed down to one thing that everyone wants.

6. Which is the theme of the game, and will doom it as well. The game starts very wide open. You can start in one of several areas, and you can level up in any of them, then it narrows you down as everyone funnels to Bree for quests, then it North Downs and Lonelands and then it opens up again around 35. You can go to misty mountains, trollshaws, angmar, or forochel and level up before everyone goes into moria.The game needs, after lothlorien, to open up again give u the option to explore rohan or mirhwood or another area instead of going on this linear track. Another poster touched on this, and I agree we are all being hearded around, and the game needs to open up and allow us to go where we want.

7. Finally, this game is starting to go through the best build syndrome. Every class was unique and different and you could play it that way within your own class. That has changed since people started to yell about DPS, the game is forcing players to a cookie cutter mold. Take RK's. Most people yelled that they were overpowered, yet you could be a damage specialist in fire, or frost or lightning and it was fun, you could enjoy yourself. After the new book, turbine has drastically increase the power requirements, the result all the RKs are now scrambling to get more power. The originiality and fun are gone. Almost all captains run around with the same trait,  the same gear, etc. ...result: each captain is the same they are all healing slotted this ruins the ability of the class to be original. Which is funny because turbine's other game, ddo, is the complete opposite. No two classes are alike and people love to build unique classes. Turbine took a great idea (have three different options within each classes) and killed it. You wont see a sword and board champ or captain and if u do, most people wont group with them. When 99% of a class are slotted, traited the same way, there is no thought.

I love LotRO but I can see myself cancelling if book 9 doesnt make some serious fundamental changes to the game.

Every time you throw around "WoW clone", UO and EQ /wrists.