Originally posted by mrw0lf

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I think V.A.T is great in the UK because it helps the goverment pay for public needs like transport and it'll help you get outta debt. Thing like Dental and Health care can then be free because the tax can go towards providing the service for the unemployed. It helps everyone out and if you have lots of money then you wont care and if you don't or are unemployed then the tax can be there to provide help to you.

Here in the UK thanx to the tax you can have free healthcare so you wont have to worry about not being able to afford medical bills. We have bennefit money for the people who have lost their jobs to help their families and if you have to support your kids you'll receive more help money.

Tbh I'm happy to know that part of my money is going towards helping people who need it more than me.

 

When VAT was introduced to us we were told it was part of joining the EU and as such agreed to it under the sole proviso that our income tax was being reduced to account for it. Also in the UK VAT is only applicable on luxury items (amazing whats has come to reside as luxury, cake but not biscuits wtf) so many working class thought it would be a bit of an added equaliser, an extra rich tax. Prior to VAT we had free healthcare at a standard we can only dream about today, unemployment benefit (since before ww1)  and the best education system in the world. So the bastards give us the new tax, but it works out at about the same (roughly) then some transvestite gets in power about 15 years later and stacks the income tax back to its original rates.

At which point she sells all government owned services (read, public owned), our education now has trouble kicking out 16 yo who can speak let alone spell (just so you know when I was at school we used to get free school diners and milk regularly for nout).

Oh and that health service your so happy about is in a fucking mess ask anyone who works for it. We have people going in hospital for teeth extractions (because they can't get on the local NHS dentists as they have waiting lists exceeding their life expectancy) and coming out with bugs that eat them alive in a day because the twat who runs the place (thats right, your 'national' hospital is probably privately managed) has realised if he doesn't hire cleaners he can get an extra surgeon to perform a few extra operations and get more subsidy from central government, whether or not the poor fucks live 10 minutes after walking out the door or not is another matter. What any of that has to do with tax however I don't know, our current spend per head is about 18th in the world, we're just above Isreal and they in the middle of a non-stop war!  we got prats getting pissed or joining gangs and stabbing each other.

I will openly admit I'm a bit of a socialist but I wasn't born that way, what taxes you have in a country is almost of irrelavence, it's primarily the people living, growing and governing it that matter and the attitudes that our government has instilled into its young for so many generation now, ie, 'take care of yourself and your own and fuck everyone else' is what has been, and will continue to allow this country to slide into its home made cess pool. Denmark, Sweden etc have better standards of living because their population gives a shit about the bloke living next door, Jesus they obey the speed limits because they know it will save peoples lives. Here, we dont obey the speed limits when we're fined on a daily basis, if you can afford the fine, it's like a licence to go faster, it's unfucking believable.

END RANT... sorry

Out of interest, for those from the US, are they just proposing the new tax as an addon or is it in subsitution for a reduction in another?

As to the availability of doctors to see patients under the socialized health care systems , according to my sister in Wisconsin there are several Canadians coming here for health care as they cannot get in to see a doctor in Canada. Huge waiting lists is my understanding.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Out of interest, for those from the US, are they just proposing the new tax as an addon or is it in subsitution for a reduction in another?

LMAO.....reduction..ha...that will be a day to see. They are proposing it in addition to our tax.

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

Originally posted by Shiva_Shadow

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

you also havent taken into consideration that maybe they will help you out? just look at europe their quality of life is significantly higher than ours.  but you would want to reject a move to hopefully raise our quality of life because you dont want to give a little more money? and if you are poor like you said then getting college paid for and them helping you live your life by paying you to attend that college and get a degree that will increase your income by 10x or maybe more that you are against it?

And that takes us right back to one of my earlier points, will the money get there to help me go to college, you may have used maybe, but in the current state of things, do we really need another tax when things are already bad and people are struggling.  Even if you call it a luxury tax, the simple fact is that such luxury's are at times the very things that keep people from dropping into hopelessness.

As for college, you never considered I might not want to go.  Or that maybe this world still needs people to work in factories, or cut your grass.  You certainly seem ready to talk down to such people.  You sound like you are saying 'You don't like your taxes, go to college to make more money so you can pay for them'  The simple fact is even if I did go to college there are many an industry out there where the job market sucks, there are 200 applicants for 1 position.  So I go to college put myself 50k into more debt and then I can't get anything but a minimum wage job, but I've still got more taxes to pay.  What then?

lol first of all why would i need anyone to cut my grass when im perfectly capable of doing it myself? secondly if you dont want to go to college then your not even trying to better your life what does working at a minimum wage job get you? i mean the reason i am going to college is so that i can provide for my family, and my future kids and hope they dont get the life that i did.  i want to be like hey guys i can help you out whenever you need it.  and its because i know that life is hard and everyone needs that help. but im just saying its not just about free education and free healthcare it just snowballs and does other things for the poor people.  so many aspects in this world can be bettered.  and who knows maybe some of that tax will go to putting solar panels on every house so that we dont have to worry about paying that electricity payment.  i cant remember where but there is a city in europe that the citizens actually SELL the unused energy their houses make to the city.  if we can be energy dependent and not worry about oil prices or many other things then that also helps the poor.  life isnt just about trying to survive its about living.. i want to live my life to the fullest and i want everyone to do that but the way this country is going, and the world even its just now happening.

sure i could prolly just be talking outa my ass atm im tired i went to work at 5am,, after staying up and playing video games which i know i shouldnt have but. we need to live.. as a human race we need to LIVE not just survive.

Your Naivety astonds me, if asked I would have to call myself a liberal, if forced I'd have to say I am an independent democrat.  But clearly you are too young and two wide-eyed the world to actually believe your taxes are going where they are suppose to be going.

Do I think it could work, no, because far too often I have seen my tax money go to line the pockets of others for services that I'll never get to used.  You act as if the government is the pinnacle of honesty, that every penny that goes into their pockets will go to help the people who paid it.  I will tell you for a fact that IT WON'T!  It will be wasted, one way or another and nothing will get better, if you actually read that post from our British friend, you can see chances are things will get that much worse.  And that is for a country the size of Britian, not even taking into account a country the size of the US in terms of sheer land mass.

But clearly, nothing anyone can say will ever destroy that blind faith in a failed system, so I will leave you with your wide-eyed dreams and endless optimism, because quite frankly until you've felt the cold hard lash of reality, there is no reason for you to think that someone else just might be right.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Be far more worried about what the crushing levels of debt and our gov't rabidly printing money is going to do to inflation :)

Other than saying that "things are going to get bad", at this point it's all peering at tea leaves and making guesses. With an out of control gov't, massive debt and service/derivative driven economy there is really just no telling how badly things will go here.

 

Governments are just a group of people, most notably, usually ungoverned

Originally posted by Shiva_Shadow

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

Originally posted by Shiva_Shadow

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

you also havent taken into consideration that maybe they will help you out? just look at europe their quality of life is significantly higher than ours.  but you would want to reject a move to hopefully raise our quality of life because you dont want to give a little more money? and if you are poor like you said then getting college paid for and them helping you live your life by paying you to attend that college and get a degree that will increase your income by 10x or maybe more that you are against it?

And that takes us right back to one of my earlier points, will the money get there to help me go to college, you may have used maybe, but in the current state of things, do we really need another tax when things are already bad and people are struggling.  Even if you call it a luxury tax, the simple fact is that such luxury's are at times the very things that keep people from dropping into hopelessness.

As for college, you never considered I might not want to go.  Or that maybe this world still needs people to work in factories, or cut your grass.  You certainly seem ready to talk down to such people.  You sound like you are saying 'You don't like your taxes, go to college to make more money so you can pay for them'  The simple fact is even if I did go to college there are many an industry out there where the job market sucks, there are 200 applicants for 1 position.  So I go to college put myself 50k into more debt and then I can't get anything but a minimum wage job, but I've still got more taxes to pay.  What then?

lol first of all why would i need anyone to cut my grass when im perfectly capable of doing it myself? secondly if you dont want to go to college then your not even trying to better your life what does working at a minimum wage job get you? i mean the reason i am going to college is so that i can provide for my family, and my future kids and hope they dont get the life that i did.  i want to be like hey guys i can help you out whenever you need it.  and its because i know that life is hard and everyone needs that help. but im just saying its not just about free education and free healthcare it just snowballs and does other things for the poor people.  so many aspects in this world can be bettered.  and who knows maybe some of that tax will go to putting solar panels on every house so that we dont have to worry about paying that electricity payment.  i cant remember where but there is a city in europe that the citizens actually SELL the unused energy their houses make to the city.  if we can be energy dependent and not worry about oil prices or many other things then that also helps the poor.  life isnt just about trying to survive its about living.. i want to live my life to the fullest and i want everyone to do that but the way this country is going, and the world even its just now happening.

sure i could prolly just be talking outa my ass atm im tired i went to work at 5am,, after staying up and playing video games which i know i shouldnt have but. we need to live.. as a human race we need to LIVE not just survive.

Your Naivety astonds me, if asked I would have to call myself a liberal, if forced I'd have to say I am an independent democrat.  But clearly you are too young and two wide-eyed the world to actually believe your taxes are going where they are suppose to be going.

Do I think it could work, no, because far too often I have seen my tax money go to line the pockets of others for services that I'll never get to used.  You act as if the government is the pinnacle of honesty, that every penny that goes into their pockets will go to help the people who paid it.  I will tell you for a fact that IT WON'T!  It will be wasted, one way or another and nothing will get better, if you actually read that post from our British friend, you can see chances are things will get that much worse.  And that is for a country the size of Britian, not even taking into account a country the size of the US in terms of sheer land mass.

But clearly, nothing anyone can say will ever destroy that blind faith in a failed system, so I will leave you with your wide-eyed dreams and endless optimism, because quite frankly until you've felt the cold hard lash of reality, there is no reason for you to think that someone else just might be right.

reason i said in a above post that if they fail to do whats right with our taxes then we have the right to go against it.  sometimes you have to believe that your government will do the right thing. but also believe we can also go against that government if they fuck it up more than it already is.  and the guy from britain said is pretty bad but what makes it worse then the way it is here? people getting thrown out of hospitals because they have no insurance. or hey im shot in the stomach but i hafta wait in the waiting room for a hr. maybe 2 before i can get them to fix me.. or hey my baby is sick but i have no insurance. its just as bad. but then you look at sweden, or some other country that cares about their fellow men and they are doing astounding. they are the pinnacle of what a government, and civilian relationship should be like. if you dont take the chance to get better than you will never get that betterment in your life. 

so YOU astound me. you want the same stagnation as you have always had.  its like you have lost hope. i havent lost hope, in this country or this world.

Well if MMO prices get prohibitively high, just claim its needed for your mental health and you can get it for "free".

Kind of like methodone or something

Some have compared VAT to a luxury tax, it's quite the opposite. VAT is more fixed, at least in Europe there's very little difference made between product A or product B and most of the VAT is just a flat rate on any value added.

You can get some money back sometimes under certain conditions and some products are exempt from VAT in some nations (specific to the nation, not a EU regulation), but most products hold the same %.

Which means that the argument of a luxury tax doesn't hold true because VAT -usually- does not account for exclusivity of the product or the income of the person being charged VAT, making it a flat tax most of the time.

The VAT is usually hidden too, when we buy something they don't tell us it's X and X VAT, usually it's just assumed that a good part is VAT.

And you think a single tax will end that stagnation, naive is the best word for that view.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I think V.A.T is great in the UK because it helps the goverment pay for public needs like transport and it'll help you get outta debt. Thing like Dental and Health care can then be free because the tax can go towards providing the service for the unemployed. It helps everyone out and if you have lots of money then you wont care and if you don't or are unemployed then the tax can be there to provide help to you.

Here in the UK thanx to the tax you can have free healthcare so you wont have to worry about not being able to afford medical bills. We have bennefit money for the people who have lost their jobs to help their families and if you have to support your kids you'll receive more help money.

Tbh I'm happy to know that part of my money is going towards helping people who need it more than me.

 

When VAT was introduced to us we were told it was part of joining the EU and as such agreed to it under the sole proviso that our income tax was being reduced to account for it. Also in the UK VAT is only applicable on luxury items (amazing whats has come to reside as luxury, cake but not biscuits wtf) so many working class thought it would be a bit of an added equaliser, an extra rich tax. Prior to VAT we had free healthcare at a standard we can only dream about today, unemployment benefit (since before ww1)  and the best education system in the world. So the bastards give us the new tax, but it works out at about the same (roughly) then some transvestite gets in power about 15 years later and stacks the income tax back to its original rates.

At which point she sells all government owned services (read, public owned), our education now has trouble kicking out 16 yo who can speak let alone spell (just so you know when I was at school we used to get free school diners and milk regularly for nout).

Oh and that health service your so happy about is in a fucking mess ask anyone who works for it. We have people going in hospital for teeth extractions (because they can't get on the local NHS dentists as they have waiting lists exceeding their life expectancy) and coming out with bugs that eat them alive in a day because the twat who runs the place (thats right, your 'national' hospital is probably privately managed) has realised if he doesn't hire cleaners he can get an extra surgeon to perform a few extra operations and get more subsidy from central government, whether or not the poor fucks live 10 minutes after walking out the door or not is another matter. What any of that has to do with tax however I don't know, our current spend per head is about 18th in the world, we're just above Isreal and they in the middle of a non-stop war!  we got prats getting pissed or joining gangs and stabbing each other.

I will openly admit I'm a bit of a socialist but I wasn't born that way, what taxes you have in a country is almost of irrelavence, it's primarily the people living, growing and governing it that matter and the attitudes that our government has instilled into its young for so many generation now, ie, 'take care of yourself and your own and fuck everyone else' is what has been, and will continue to allow this country to slide into its home made cess pool. Denmark, Sweden etc have better standards of living because their population gives a shit about the bloke living next door, Jesus they obey the speed limits because they know it will save peoples lives. Here, we dont obey the speed limits when we're fined on a daily basis, if you can afford the fine, it's like a licence to go faster, it's unfucking believable.

END RANT... sorry

Out of interest, for those from the US, are they just proposing the new tax as an addon or is it in subsitution for a reduction in another?

As to the availability of doctors to see patients under the socialized health care systems , according to my sister in Wisconsin there are several Canadians coming here for health care as they cannot get in to see a doctor in Canada. Huge waiting lists is my understanding.

Waiting lists!!! My local doctors split (the original practice had 2 main doctors who went seperate ways, about 2 miles from each other), they put signs in their windows declaring that they had new NHS spaces available (As it happens it was about 50 per practice). The queue's from each practice passes each other for about 2 weeks, EVERY DAY! over 2 mile queues of people for a few weeks, it's shitting incredulous.

Don't get me wrong, the people in the service do an excellent job (although some of the new ones don't speak english but hey, they hold my balls while I cough) and either of these doctors could have opened up private and made a lot more money. The poeple want to do right but the backing isn't there anymore both financially or logistically. I dont care tbh I am lucky and have a good job, I have private health as a benefit (which means someone gets paid a stupid amount of cash to tell me smoking is bad for me twice a year), but it's the principle.

its just a step..  a single step towards something different, something hopefully better. 

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Originally posted by Eladi

Owell aslong there is no law in the us that says you gota pay income tax your good to go. so you get a little VAT , just stop paying income tax :P

 

Sorry, that argument has been tried against the I.R.S. for decades and fails every time. Wesley Snipes was the last victim of that little gimmick.

Actually the Supreme Court has ruled on numerous occasions in favor of the fact of not being Law to pay Federal Income Taxes on EARNED WAGES. When you work for a wage you are trading service for cash. Wesley has NOTHING to do with this as actors are CONTRACTED, not hired as a worker for a wage.

Again to clear things you need to be more specific. Federal Taxes on EARNED WAGES are Unconstitutional, and their is no direct law. Please watch America Freedom to Fascism video.google.com/videoplayby Aaron Russo and learn more about the IRS tactics to make people comply.

that is true. the federal incometax is pretty much unconstitutional if you look at it thoroughly

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

its just a step..  a single step towards something different, something hopefully better. 

It's not about that though, in some countries that makes sense. The thing is I would happily pay every penny I earned if I could get most of the things I wanted and felt the government would spend that money wisely for me and all the citizens. But they do such a piss poor job with what they do get, giving more is bloody insane. Until they show that they arn't in it just for themselves (like everyone else, including myself) what logic is there in increasing the ability for them to have more comfortable lives while other starve.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

its just a step..  a single step towards something different, something hopefully better. 

 

It's not about that though, in some countries that makes sense. The thing is I would happily pay every penny I earned if I could get most of the things I wanted and felt the government would spend that money wisely for me and all the citizens. But they do such a piss poor job with what they do get, giving more is bloody insane. Until they show that they arn't in it just for themselves (like everyone else, including myself) what logic is there in increasing the ability for them to have more comfortable lives while other starve.

but also. look who our president was.  i mean the downie known as bush messed our country completely up.  a turn in power has occured and we need to at least give them the chance. 

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

that is true. the federal incometax is pretty much unconstitutional if you look at it thoroughly

Yes it is and if i remember correctly it was implemented to pay for WW 1 and would be discontinued after that. Must have been one expensive war.

Zeitgeist has alot of information about income tax, fed reserve, and all that fun stuff. sure some of it can be complete BS. but alot of it is also true.

Get off your ass and better you own life.

I am a highschool drop out but because I wanted a better life or my little girl I put down the Vodka and the Joint and went out and did what I needed to do and now I am sitting here reading these message boards at a job that is paying me $27.00 hour with a $22,000 bonus at the end of the year.

I went from being a drunk wasted loser to a home owner with 2 new cars in under 5 years with out help from mommy or daddy and it was a legal. There are lots of grants out there for the poor to help them get the training they need, there are lots of jobs out there that will pay for training so you can improve. The company I work for paid well over $5000 in  6 month time just so they could pay me more to do my job.

 Woodrow Wilson 1919 on the Federal Reserve

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nantion is now controlled by its system of credit.

  We are no longer a government by free opinion. No longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men"

U.S. District Court Judge- James C. Fox Stated-"If you examined (the 16th Amendment) carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states NEVER ratified that amendment"

and don't forget the private banker Mayer Rothschilds statement- "Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes its laws."

Again I say watch this video from Aaron Russo video.google.com/videoplay

I dont think Americans will ever tolerate a VAT here. Europeans may be used to it, but Americans already feel overtaxed as it is.

Obama can promise whatever he wants, but he's a President, not a king. He cant pass new taxes, he can only choose not to Veto them. Any attempt by congress to stick America with a VAT will result in a big angry backlash and gnashing of teeth. It aint gonna happen.

Originally posted by Shohadaku

 Woodrow Wilson 1919 on the Federal Reserve

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nantion is now controlled by its system of credit.

  We are no longer a government by free opinion. No longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men"

 

U.S. District Court Judge- James C. Fox Stated-"If you examined (the 16th Amendment) carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states NEVER ratified that amendment"

and don't forget the private banker Mayer Rothschilds statement- "Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes its laws."

Again I say watch this video from Aaron Russo video.google.com/videoplay

also watch this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197