Originally posted by hidden1

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

Agreed.  It's an endless cycle.  Actually, I guess it's more of a downward spiral into total crap.  The MMO genre became mainstream by (most games, not all) being diluted into garbage that's playable by just about anyone.

Originally posted by TookyG

Originally posted by hidden1

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

 

Agreed.  It's an endless cycle.  Actually, I guess it's more of a downward spiral into total crap.  The MMO genre became mainstream by (most games, not all) being diluted into garbage that's playable by just about anyone.

Hear, hear.

I'd try to place blame on this game or that game, or that part of the player population or the other, but it serves no one and it is not anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before.  The simple fact is, something is wrong and has been.. and until something changes complaints are the least productive thing to be done.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by TheHavok

This genre is fine and getting better.  This is just another redudant doom and gloom post that seems to happen every week.

 

actually you are in the minority,  the majority feeling is that mmorpg scene is stagnant. Many developers wasted their time copying, unsuccesfully, WoW. Lets see what happens in next 1-3 years, should be some new MMOs out with other things than gorcs,  elfs, magic etc. and different game mechanics as well, like Jumpgate for example.

So you're speaking for the "majority"? If you're going by internet opinion then everything sucks no matter what it may be.

Its also very nearsighted to say that developers are wasting their time copying WoW. Each one of those games that you're probably referring to tried to add new ideas onto the WoW formula. They didn't just copy WoW any more than WoW copied EQ. They failed for their own reasons, not because they were too WoW-ish.

If a game like EQ was re-released today except with awesome graphics, people would come and complain about how awful it was. It doesn't have the features that we have come to expect from newer better games. The genre has come a long way since those days. Even the games that many of us consider failures have raised our expectations of what a MMOG should have.

The genre is getting more popular. The quality of the games being released is improving. We ARE seeing innovation even if it is happening in the least likely of places. So yes, the genre IS getting better. The only problem is that its not getting better fast enough for some people.

Originally posted by Aganazer

The genre is getting more popular. The quality of the games being released is improving. We ARE seeing innovation even if it is happening in the least likely of places. So yes, the genre IS getting better. The only problem is that its not getting better fast enough for some people.

"Better" is subjective.  I can completely understand why people want to play WoW or [insert game title here], because they like it and that's fine.  When the majority of games coming out cater to a specific group, and someone is in said group (I'm not saying you are Aganazer), I get why they might think the genre is getting better.  However, to those outside of said group, it's easy to see why they would think the genre is going downhill.

MMOs are not horrible today. If you do not enjoy them anymore, then stop. No one is stopping you, at all. 

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the games fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

 

And with your very words you prove my point valid in a way that I never could have done without you.  For that, you have my thanks.

 

Wow, way to miss her point, and act as if she flamed you to boot. Defensive much? She didnt prove your point, her point went right over your head it seems.

 

Ok, you're right, I'm wrong.

Have a nice day.

/block

LMFAO.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

 

I agree with this to an extent but I think it goes slightly wrong.  Community being horrible is pretty much my big key here...

 

I really don't mind what most term as "elitist" becuase they are never doing anything in an MMO I would care about.  Whiner, complainers etc... I turn off general chat.  Or I apply a liberal application of /ignore.

 

The issue to me is how bad the community actually is "IN" game these days.  I'll use this as a personal example...

 

In 1997 when Ultima Online launched, it was open pvp with full looting.  You can imagine all the horrible things that went on... yet somehow.. I had the largest friends list of ANY mmo I ever played... was involved in all kinds of things.  It was in the end what I would probably term the best community *I* ever was around in an MMO... and all that with pvp and full loot.

 

Now in todays games... pvp or not.  I don't want to group with anyone because of how they act.  I have ignore lists longer than my old UO friends list.. because of how people act.  I often wonder how they manage to operate a computer, breath on their own etc..

 

I've actually in a way become an elitist bastard because why in the hell would I want to group with the average person I see in an MMO now... so yes to me that is a large reflection on the communities we have now.  Tho I do meet people who are fun to play with... seem to be great people etc... its now very rare as opposed to how common it used to be.

 

And before anyone says it... it has nothing to do with age.

 

In fact that spins me off into a different lane of thinking...

 

Back in the day hardware was pretty expensive.  If you were online and in an MMO it was because that was your hobby... your passion.  So you basicly had a bunch of people who really wanted to be there...

 

Then again I think you can say the same for developers.  I think it used to be more about passion... really wanting to make a game.  As opposed to "wanting to work in the gaming industry."  The people we have now as developers and the companies behind them... are no longer in the business of making games.  They are making games for business.

 

You do also have the aspect of the player base who is very vocal on message boards.  Regardless of what it was about....  and I think to some extent that developers decided people who left without saying anything... were represented by that large crying base.  I call it crying because... my belief is the large subscriber losses around the industry (most mmo's) are due to people leaving over changes made... As opposed to being a silent part of the outcry.

 

So as they change this or that... and a large batch of people leave.. saying nothing... no feedback and don't come back.  They decide they didn't listen to the forum enough... or move fast enough.. and the subs start to bleed as they listen and move faster.

 

Somehow they never click on the lightbulb... that these people leave because they didn't want the changes to begin with.

 

So the blame is on both sides... but to be honest the biggest thing that pisses me off currently in MMO's is other players.  I really wish there was a community standard that was actually enforced.  There are these wonderful things call Terms of Service and End User License Agreement.  Its really to bad they aren't enforced... then again if MMO developers clean up the community they are losing money.  So in the long run do they lose more money by letting the community go to crap.. or by keeping it clean?

 

*edited for a few annoying grammar related incidents...*

 

I'd also say one MMO that I tried 3 times since its launch in late 2008... the reason I hit cancel every time was due to lack of ToS/Eula enforcement... and I might have put up with it.. if I hadn't already watched the same crap in another game from the same company.  So you know which side of the "keep your game clean" fence I sit on.

Well said my friend very good!!!

 Interesting, so the liberal left's initiative to put internet in every American's house is actually ruining gaming for all of us !

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

 

I agree with this to an extent but I think it goes slightly wrong.  Community being horrible is pretty much my big key here...

 

I really don't mind what most term as "elitist" becuase they are never doing anything in an MMO I would care about.  Whiner, complainers etc... I turn off general chat.  Or I apply a liberal application of /ignore.

 

The issue to me is how bad the community actually is "IN" game these days.  I'll use this as a personal example...

 

In 1997 when Ultima Online launched, it was open pvp with full looting.  You can imagine all the horrible things that went on... yet somehow.. I had the largest friends list of ANY mmo I ever played... was involved in all kinds of things.  It was in the end what I would probably term the best community *I* ever was around in an MMO... and all that with pvp and full loot.

 

Now in todays games... pvp or not.  I don't want to group with anyone because of how they act.  I have ignore lists longer than my old UO friends list.. because of how people act.  I often wonder how they manage to operate a computer, breath on their own etc..

 

I've actually in a way become an elitist bastard because why in the hell would I want to group with the average person I see in an MMO now... so yes to me that is a large reflection on the communities we have now.  Tho I do meet people who are fun to play with... seem to be great people etc... its now very rare as opposed to how common it used to be.

 

And before anyone says it... it has nothing to do with age.

 

In fact that spins me off into a different lane of thinking...

 

Back in the day hardware was pretty expensive.  If you were online and in an MMO it was because that was your hobby... your passion.  So you basicly had a bunch of people who really wanted to be there...

 

Then again I think you can say the same for developers.  I think it used to be more about passion... really wanting to make a game.  As opposed to "wanting to work in the gaming industry."  The people we have now as developers and the companies behind them... are no longer in the business of making games.  They are making games for business.

 

You do also have the aspect of the player base who is very vocal on message boards.  Regardless of what it was about....  and I think to some extent that developers decided people who left without saying anything... were represented by that large crying base.  I call it crying because... my belief is the large subscriber losses around the industry (most mmo's) are due to people leaving over changes made... As opposed to being a silent part of the outcry.

 

So as they change this or that... and a large batch of people leave.. saying nothing... no feedback and don't come back.  They decide they didn't listen to the forum enough... or move fast enough.. and the subs start to bleed as they listen and move faster.

 

Somehow they never click on the lightbulb... that these people leave because they didn't want the changes to begin with.

 

So the blame is on both sides... but to be honest the biggest thing that pisses me off currently in MMO's is other players.  I really wish there was a community standard that was actually enforced.  There are these wonderful things call Terms of Service and End User License Agreement.  Its really to bad they aren't enforced... then again if MMO developers clean up the community they are losing money.  So in the long run do they lose more money by letting the community go to crap.. or by keeping it clean?

 

*edited for a few annoying grammar related incidents...*

 

I'd also say one MMO that I tried 3 times since its launch in late 2008... the reason I hit cancel every time was due to lack of ToS/Eula enforcement... and I might have put up with it.. if I hadn't already watched the same crap in another game from the same company.  So you know which side of the "keep your game clean" fence I sit on.

Good post and I want to answer a few of your concerns.

The reason mmo's were great back in 1997 and 1999 (when Everquest launched my first mmo) is because 85% of the player base was adults. The games were hard and you were punished for screwing up. (Corpse runs) But, these harsh punishments strengthened the game and encouraged the player base to get along (Hey can I have a SOW for a CR please!!) These things contributed to a community interaction (TRAIN TO ZONE!!!!  Where, which side!!!), (East Commons chat based yell selling) which would be a bannable offense in todays games gave a realistic auction feel and was fun trying to get that item you need in real-time before someone else.

Now we are all sanitary, self-sufficient and operate in game behind auction houses faceless and detached from each other. We use to play like we were all at the table in the room like in old school pen and paper D&D. Now its a library and everyone is by themselves.

As Technology increases...the efficencys we seek seperate us...suks,but someone needs to figure out how to increase technology without decreasing interaction.

honestly the one that got it closest is still guild wars

got insane pvp not grindfest and lot of pve

worldofwarcraft is a fair second

the rest mm nothing to yell about

and its reflected on xfire nnumber

1 wow

2guildwars(very far behind)

3 silkroad online

rune of magic moght squeeze in in

since aion is another lineage (grind fest x 10000)

i wonder will we play wow till we re 65 years old

lol might as well play neo steam, lol at least end game is interesting

Originally posted by drbaltazar

since aion is another lineage (grind fest x 10000)

Really? This is news to me ; )

Originally posted by Horkathane

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

 

I agree with this to an extent but I think it goes slightly wrong.  Community being horrible is pretty much my big key here...

 

I really don't mind what most term as "elitist" becuase they are never doing anything in an MMO I would care about.  Whiner, complainers etc... I turn off general chat.  Or I apply a liberal application of /ignore.

 

The issue to me is how bad the community actually is "IN" game these days.  I'll use this as a personal example...

 

In 1997 when Ultima Online launched, it was open pvp with full looting.  You can imagine all the horrible things that went on... yet somehow.. I had the largest friends list of ANY mmo I ever played... was involved in all kinds of things.  It was in the end what I would probably term the best community *I* ever was around in an MMO... and all that with pvp and full loot.

 

Now in todays games... pvp or not.  I don't want to group with anyone because of how they act.  I have ignore lists longer than my old UO friends list.. because of how people act.  I often wonder how they manage to operate a computer, breath on their own etc..

 

I've actually in a way become an elitist bastard because why in the hell would I want to group with the average person I see in an MMO now... so yes to me that is a large reflection on the communities we have now.  Tho I do meet people who are fun to play with... seem to be great people etc... its now very rare as opposed to how common it used to be.

 

And before anyone says it... it has nothing to do with age.

 

In fact that spins me off into a different lane of thinking...

 

Back in the day hardware was pretty expensive.  If you were online and in an MMO it was because that was your hobby... your passion.  So you basicly had a bunch of people who really wanted to be there...

 

Then again I think you can say the same for developers.  I think it used to be more about passion... really wanting to make a game.  As opposed to "wanting to work in the gaming industry."  The people we have now as developers and the companies behind them... are no longer in the business of making games.  They are making games for business.

 

You do also have the aspect of the player base who is very vocal on message boards.  Regardless of what it was about....  and I think to some extent that developers decided people who left without saying anything... were represented by that large crying base.  I call it crying because... my belief is the large subscriber losses around the industry (most mmo's) are due to people leaving over changes made... As opposed to being a silent part of the outcry.

 

So as they change this or that... and a large batch of people leave.. saying nothing... no feedback and don't come back.  They decide they didn't listen to the forum enough... or move fast enough.. and the subs start to bleed as they listen and move faster.

 

Somehow they never click on the lightbulb... that these people leave because they didn't want the changes to begin with.

 

So the blame is on both sides... but to be honest the biggest thing that pisses me off currently in MMO's is other players.  I really wish there was a community standard that was actually enforced.  There are these wonderful things call Terms of Service and End User License Agreement.  Its really to bad they aren't enforced... then again if MMO developers clean up the community they are losing money.  So in the long run do they lose more money by letting the community go to crap.. or by keeping it clean?

 

*edited for a few annoying grammar related incidents...*

 

I'd also say one MMO that I tried 3 times since its launch in late 2008... the reason I hit cancel every time was due to lack of ToS/Eula enforcement... and I might have put up with it.. if I hadn't already watched the same crap in another game from the same company.  So you know which side of the "keep your game clean" fence I sit on.

Good post and I want to answer a few of your concerns.

The reason mmo's were great back in 1997 and 1999 (when Everquest launched my first mmo) is because 85% of the player base was adults. The games were hard and you were punished for screwing up. (Corpse runs) But, these harsh punishments strengthened the game and encouraged the player base to get along (Hey can I have a SOW for a CR please!!) These things contributed to a community interaction (TRAIN TO ZONE!!!!  Where, which side!!!), (East Commons chat based yell selling) which would be a bannable offense in todays games gave a realistic auction feel and was fun trying to get that item you need in real-time before someone else.

Now we are all sanitary, self-sufficient and operate in game behind auction houses faceless and detached from each other. We use to play like we were all at the table in the room like in old school pen and paper D&D. Now its a library and everyone is by themselves.

As Technology increases...the efficencys we seek seperate us...suks,but someone needs to figure out how to increase technology without decreasing interaction.

I whole heartedly miss this something fierce in todays MMO's, and i agree 110% that technology should be bringing us closer together as a community rather than sticking us in a cubicle and telling us to keep quiet or the guy next to you will complain.

Final Fantasy XIV is here have no fear

Compared to single player games mmorpg's have always been horrible. What makes mmo's the games they are is the community. In my opinion the games have actuallly gotten better but the field is saturated and people have been playing these games for far too long that it really skews the objectivity. Also, nostalgia is a dangerous thing.

Originally posted by Sneakers05

it is currently mid 2009. Where did we go wrong bros?

Why take the extra effort to make a killer next gen persistant world when you can make millions just rehashing the same garbage for a easy payout. Sure games loose subs and end up failing, but still get that big payout for nothing groundbreaking, just empty commercialized hype.

Big buisness took over people. It's not about innovation anylonger. 

People just want more than a single game can offer.

Originally posted by Shorun

People just want more than a single game can offer.

I imagine so but mmo's turn out to be so repetitive, it's the only way they keep people playing. For a gaming experience you can't beat single player games. MMO's provide a gaming chat room and repetitive play, if you enjoy that then it's heaven for you. For me, I tend to look for other games once I start getting to repitition part of the game (end game dailies and such).

Originally posted by Horkathane

Good post and I want to answer a few of your concerns.

The reason mmo's were great back in 1997 and 1999 (when Everquest launched my first mmo) is because 85% of the player base was adults. The games were hard and you were punished for screwing up. (Corpse runs) But, these harsh punishments strengthened the game and encouraged the player base to get along (Hey can I have a SOW for a CR please!!) These things contributed to a community interaction (TRAIN TO ZONE!!!!  Where, which side!!!), (East Commons chat based yell selling) which would be a bannable offense in todays games gave a realistic auction feel and was fun trying to get that item you need in real-time before someone else.

Now we are all sanitary, self-sufficient and operate in game behind auction houses faceless and detached from each other. We use to play like we were all at the table in the room like in old school pen and paper D&D. Now its a library and everyone is by themselves.

As Technology increases...the efficencys we seek seperate us...suks,but someone needs to figure out how to increase technology without decreasing interaction.

When the experience is new and exciting you are willing to put up with a lot of crap and badly designed systems.  You get to bond with others going through the same experience and you get to look down on people unwilling to put up with the same stuff that you accept.  You thrived on the chaos that repelled so many others.

Now the old 'wild west' is becoming civilized and you are reduced to the role of the old guy who pines for the time when 'men were men'. 

Cars were better when only the elite could afford and drive them.  Now everyone has them and they suck=)  Computers were better as well, when you needed a computer science degree to operate them.  Now everyone has them and they suck=) 

MMO's weren't BETTER.  As games they were quite pathetic, bland, buggy, and unintutive.  You loved the people.  You tolerated the game.  The community was better because it was just a bunch of nerds who got along really great with one another.  NOW, normal people are playing and the nerds can't possibly get along with the normals, so of course when anyone normal shares an activity with a nerd, the activity begins to suck.  Its beneath the nerd, dumbed down and commercialized. ...hence horrible. 

MMOs are technically much BETTER now.  They just aren't as fresh or new.  The communites have just gotten bigger.  There are still great communities within the communities.  You just have to find them and when you like the people, you begin to enjoy the game as well.

Antarious (and a good post btw)  "So the blame is on both sides"

Shiva Shadow (love how this line can be used for everything lol)  "The simple fact is, something is wrong and has been.. and until something changes complaints are the least productive thing to be done."