Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

changes:

-Slow powers do not slow people anymore anywhere near the way the used to.  You can go right through them.

-Hold powers do not hold people anywhere near as effectively as they used to and they do much less damage.

-Assassinate powers do much less damage than they used to.  You used to be able to sneak up on people and really put them in danger of death if they didn't evade very quickly.

-Teleport powers are switched off if you launch an attack or are attacked.  You can't use them, at all.

-Teleport foe powers now reduce the damage you can do to the foe and or make them unable to be hit for a limited time.  You used to teleport foes and then attack them, doing regular damage.

-Superspeed powers are incredibly slowed as soon as you yourself launch an attack, or as soon as someone hits you with an attack.

-Superjump powers are incredibly reduced as soon as you launch an attack or are attacked by someone else.

-Healing powers when used are now diminished each and every time you use them.  This also affects those around you for area heals, ruining any self-healing strategy they may have been using.

-Buff powers are also incredibly reduced, leaving buffing characters wondering why they should bother entering the zone.

-Mez protection powers (protection powers for melee toons against ranged holds etc.) were eliminated completely.  Those with ranged holds used to have to stack them on you before they took effect.  This would give you a chance to get in close to them for a melee hit.  Now, with the changes, no mez protection whatsoever.  If you're a melee toon, and someone wants to hold you from range, they will--over and over and over again.

All of these powers that had reductions, suppressions, eliminations were filled with enhancement sets that were crafted over a period of months with rare loot, or purchased for a lot of money.  With the powers becoming useless or suppressed, these enhancement sets also became useless.

 

I've never really gotten into PVP in CoX though I've played (fairly casually) for years... got bored with the endless kiting, lockdown mezzing, one-shotting Stalkers, invincible Bubble-buffers and general inability to compete with someone decked out with a full load of rare Enhancements.

What's that you say? That's all gone now?! They've tried to make it more accessible to people other than the embittered `lifer' PVPers who are now rage-quitting? Pardon my lack of sympathy for your impassioned plea, but whether or not I decide to get into it more in the future (and I am tempted), I certainly won't be shedding a tear for the 'good ole days' of CoX PVP.

And as for the idea that now the CoX community will be flocking in droves to Champions because of these (now old) changes, I think you've seriously overestimated the number of 'hardcore' PVPers in the game. Let's face it, CoX PVP was always a token afterthought loosely bolted onto a largely PVE game - if you're really that devoted to PVP then it was probably never the game for you to begin with. Moreover, since it's the same developers making practically the same game with Champions, I really doubt that the people leaving one for the other will be doing so on the strength of the PVP system... which seems pretty likely to be a whole lot more of the same.

The "old" changes occured immediately prior to the most recent issue, the architect, which (as I've said) was originally scheduled as part of the same update.  The feedback I'm referring to is from May 2009.  FYI May 09 was 9 days ago.   Like another person who seems inclined to defend this MMO,  I hardly think you can accurately describe this as an "old" issue.  Like I said earlier (maybe you missed it?) this is currently a first page, hot issue in the developer forum on the official boards.  I imagine the devs (well some of them) would like the issue to be old, but it's not. 

As for the issues you raised about the problems in the previous PvP system, the community of players along with Lighthouse generated a helpful list to address these (and many other) real concerns.  The PvP system needed refining.

This PvP refinement could have been done openly, honestly, collarboratively and respectfully.  This was the process that Lighthouse began, and many players participated in.  There was in fact a great deal of optimism and good will looking ahead.

Sadly, instead of continuing down this path to a better game, it seems that someone high up the food chain at NCsoft decided to throw the current players (and Lighthouse) under the bus, and create a new PvP game from the ground up--for a different, hopefully larger audience.

What I'm saying is that when you decide to throw a lot of your core player population (and at least one of your staff) under the bus, it's going to have a negative impact on your game's community and reputation.

You have every right (freedom of speech etc.) to say that PvP players were expendable, and that no one will miss them, or the game they enjoyed; but I'd like to point out that you are in fact repeating the very problem I'm highlighting--devaluing a portion of your playing community and throwing them under the bus in the hope of appealing to someone else.  This kind of behaviour both divides and poisons player-communities; and this has an overall impact on the appeal of the game.

If you read the official forums or talk to people ingame about the PvP revamp, you'll see what I mean.  Dividing a game community (in a rather ugly manner) right before a competitor (Cryptic now fits that description) releases a new MMO in the same genre seems unwise to me.  You, and NCsoft, have every right to ignore these observations of course, but I stand behind them.  I guess we'll just have to see what happens to the CoH population when Champions comes out.  The proof, I suspect, will be in the proverbial pudding.

I thought I'd make a seperate response to address some of the gameplay issues that have been raised:

-Kiting: actually kiting still occurs; it just happens slower.  Why?  Because when you launch an attack, you suppress yourself.  You render yourself unable to move.  If you miss, which is often now (people have switched to characters with high defense in light of the new rules) you just gave your opponent a free ticket to leave you behind.  This is especially ironic when you throw a web grenade at someone to attempt to immobilize them.  You are guaranteed to slow yourself down, and have less of a chance of immobilizing your opponent.  Kiting in the old system had many counter moves.  Pick up slow powers, holds, immobilize, stuns or teleport foe.  I would regularly teleport people to myself if they tried to kite me.  Then I had slow and stun powers to try to keep them close.  Lots of options, lots of strategy.  Kiting was only a problem if you didn't know how to counter it, and there were many, many options.

-Assassin strike:  It would always take two hits for an assassin to kill you.  So, you had to be alert in the zone for someone trying to surprise you.  If you moved quick, they wouldn't get you, and they'd become visible for counter-attack.  With my tp foe power, I'd often pull a running stalker back to myself to make him pay for making an attempt on my life.  Very fun for me, and a fun contest for the stalker.  I'd also lay caltrops all over the place to make stalkers visible and slow them unexpectedly.  Again, a fun contest.  Now?  Stalkers hit you for very little damage; AND then root themselves in place due to travel suppression.  Stalkers are built for hit and run, but now their hit stinks, and they can't run.  What this means for them is hit (and do very little damage) and die.  Many, many of my stalker friends quit.  I was a Katana regen btw.

-Regen and healing:  Regen was reduced and so were all healing powers.  Some toons were only viable because they could heal themselves or regenerate.  Now they can't, at least not effectively.  This makes it hard to compete with high defense toons and high resistance toons.  It also made healers somewhat pointless in the zone.  Actually getting healed by someone would bork your regen, so healers were being told to stay away.  That's going to bring more people to the pvp zone?  Not likely.

-Slow powers:  These were all drastically reduced.  Also, everyone is slowed down by the travel suppression anyways, so what's the point really?  Even so, some people kept their slow powers, but found that people just jogged right through them without much difference.  If you were a melee toon that used slows to get close to ranged attackers, there goes your fun.  Remember if you use a melee attack, you now slow yourself or cancel your own travel power.

-Teleport: Ever seen a stone tank in a PvP zone without teleport?  It's a pitiful sight.  Why?  They can't move, anywhere, at all.  Stone tanks were practically eliminated from PvP by this revamp.

-Mez protection:  Gone.  Ever wonder what it's like to be hit by every single hold thrown your way as a Melee pvper?  It sucks, hard.  Every few seconds, you're held, with no protection.  Take a break free you might say.  Those were also disabled as mez protection.  They do not cancel holds any longer, merely shorten the duration.  So, be prepared to be held a lot, and repeatedly, if there are any players on with hold powers.

-Holds:  You'd think it would be a golden age for hold powers now that mez protection is gone right?  Wrong.  Your hold does virtually no damage now.  All it does is hold people for a few seconds.  Just long enough to paralyze them and piss them off.  You won't kill them though.  Then they'll chase you, until you hold them again for another few seconds.  Kiting has stopped?  No; it's just slower and much more irritating.

What's left to do?  As I say, if there are players in the zone, they'll tend to huddle in one corner of the map and button mash until someone either hits a power like hibernate, or until someone mercifully dies.  Probably it will be the stalker that just punched someone in the shoulder and then got ganked by his friends.

Am I really impassioned about this as the previous poster suggested?  Lol, no not really.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd say it bothers me at about a level 1--very low.  Maybe 2 if I think about some of the really fun times I had or how much work I put into some of my builds.  I stopped playing simply because it was no longer enjoyable.  I even thanked Miller for the good times, and wished him well.  I did tell him why I was leaving after 3 years, hoping that the feedback would be productive mind you.  I was polite about it too, why not be?  That doesn't stop me from thinking analytically about the situation, or from wondering how this may affect subscription levels when Champions comes out in the fall, which is what I'm doing.

I simply think this wasn't the best move on the part of NCsoft, and I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back to bite them.

What I am confused about was this need to do this massive change across the board? Why not put these changes into a confined area, such as an option in arenas and monitor the feedback? Why completely gut everything across the board on some dev wishful thinking, especially when your PVP vets are freaking out?

Somebody correct me please, I quit playing before the PVP changes, but didn't the dual build feature AND the PVP changes all occur at once? If my memory is right, why not put out the dual build under the old PVP system and see if just that additional feature would drive more people to PVP?

Originally posted by Kravis

What I am confused about was this need to do this massive change across the board? Why not put these changes into a confined area, such as an option in arenas and monitor the feedback? Why completely gut everything across the board on some dev wishful thinking, especially when your PVP vets are freaking out?

Somebody correct me please, I quit playing before the PVP changes, but didn't the dual build feature AND the PVP changes all occur at once? If my memory is right, why not put out the dual build under the old PVP system and see if just that additional feature would drive more people to PVP?
 

That's a very, very good point.  In fact the PvP reps talking with Lighthouse pleaded with the devs to do exactly what you suggest.  Castle's response was that refinement was not enough; he concluded (why I don't know) that the entire PvP system needed an immediate rebuild from the ground up.  I believe he used the word "drastic" change.

This ignored a number of suggestions to fix current bugs and issues with the original PvP system.  In fact, a very helpful list was provided to Lighthouse, and people had a ventrillo chat with him about what would help the PvP aspect of the game.  Players also wanted to see PvP improved, and we would have loved to see more people in the PvP zones.  Unfortunately, it seems Castle (or someone above him) decided to discard most of our observations, our input, and eventually our game.

Also, Castle didn't give himself nearly enough time to do a good job on a PvP revamp.  The whole system was redesigned and implemented within just a few short months; amidst countless pages of negative feedback.

Why did he cut players out of the process and rush out a new PvP system even more broken than the old one?  Honestly, it beats me.

Originally posted by lordvance

Even without taking PvP into consideration, it's a pretty solid bet that Champions is going to mop the floor with CoX. DCO will probably be better than champions for the PvP-inclined though.

Really? You think SOE can make a pvp game?  Hell, the game will be launched broken and unfinished. Most likely, the pvp content they may say they will have will not be in the game at launch.

I have more confidence in Cryptic.

Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."

Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

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Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie
Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."
Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

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Devs telling players what is more fun, god where have we heard this one before? When did rewards and enjoyment not go hand-in-hand? They are getting ready to release I15 I believe, is there any more PVP "enhancements"? Please help me, wasn't this PVP change also ushered in because of an eventual SG base PVP revamp? If so, any sign of that yet?

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."

Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

 I interacted with Castle directly over these changes: thoroughly and respectfully.  He responded in forums and in email.  He was also respectful, but seemed very committed to his agenda.

With respect, players never saw any attempts to implement the items suggested.  They were never offered to the community for testing, in any form whatsoever.

If the ideas were implemented, who did it?  How many of the recommendations were tested?  Who tested them and found them "not fun"?  Players didn't.

Did they ever fix the heavy spawning bug in the PvP zone?  Did they get rid of the exploitable areas in opposing bases?  Did they give certain builds mez protection that had none?  Did they modify hold powers so that people could no longer be held indefinitely until they died?  Did they recognize that the rewards in the PvP zones were tied to PvE, and that people then found the PvP a nuisance?  Did they shift those rewards to make them connected to PvP activities instead?  Did they make more slow and immobilize powers available to various archetypes for use in PvP to counter evasion tactics?

If they did any of these things, which I doubt, no players ever saw them.  These changes, although based on the original system, would have taken a lot of time and effort too.  Did Castle really try all of these things out?  I really doubt it.  Even if he did, like I said, players never saw it.  Shouldn't players have a say regarding what is "fun" in the game they are playing and paying for?

This was just really poorly done.  I think it was a bad idea, and the way it was pushed just caused a lot of bad feelings, sadly.

I think Castle and players wanted to achieve some common goals, but we were cut out of the process, after being asked for our input.  We had some helpful ideas to make PvP more accessible that would add to the game for some without destroying it for others.  Castle's approach seemed to miss this important concept.  Current players seemed shoved aside to make room for someone new. 

With more time and more collaboration, I think the real issues could have been addressed in a way that didn't cause such a division in the playerbase.  I bet Castle was given the mandate to "fix PvP," but was given very little time to do it.  Collaboration seemed to go out the window, and as a result I think the changes had a lot of unintended consequences that had people feeling unhappy.

Also, just so you know, the items on what's known as the PvP "wishlist" included items ranging from known bugs, to exploits, to some power balance issues (e.g. perma-holds).  One issue among all of these others was rewards for PvP.  We also suggested the dual builds--perhaps the one and only recommendation that was implemented (which was good btw).

Also, this whole concept of rewards for PvP was introduced to address the concerns of PvE players who felt griefed in the PvP zones.  They felt griefed because they would enter the PvP zone with no intention of PvPing.  They were therw to get Shivans or Rockets (pets and temporary buffs) to help them in a task force.  They probably had friends waiting for them to get the task force started too.  These rewards were entirely PvE centered.  PvPing with these folks would screw them up, and make their task force friends wait longer.  This discouraged PvP in a PvP zone, which quite frankly doesn't make a lot of sense.

What we suggested was that rewards in the PvP zone should be tied instead to PvP victories.  This way, people wouldn't feel griefed by PvP in a PvP zone.  Some people make this out to be some kind of selfish demand by the PvP community.  It wasn't.  It was a proposal to address a real issue that created bad feelings between PvP and PvE players.

I have to agree. I always thought PvP needed balancing (I never played a stalker, scrapper or blaster). But even playing the "underpowered" archetypes it sucks now.

Up until the recent patch I always though CoX was a near perfect game for the casual gamer. The PvP changes suck and the architect system has sucked everyone away from the rest of the game which becomes quite repetitive.

I've left this game quite sometime ago I think back in Oct of 08 was my last time in it is just too shallow for me all around and I just get the sense that there aren't any real fresh ideas in the team as I've even been offered trials for updates and such but still have not had the desire to return the games grind is still far too horrible and there is still just too little variety in this game, I've never played pvp so it's hard to comment on it but I can say after giving it some thought the only thing I truly miss about this game is the community and everyones willingness to work together which I realize is mostly due to the fact that you'd want to slit your own wrist if you tried to level solo in this game.  I really don't see much more hope for CO or DC either looks like an elaboration on this game which plays far too much like an arcade game for my tastes.

Originally posted by shad0w99

I have to agree. I always thought PvP needed balancing (I never played a stalker, scrapper or blaster). But even playing the "underpowered" archetypes it sucks now.

Up until the recent patch I always though CoX was a near perfect game for the casual gamer. The PvP changes suck and the architect system has sucked everyone away from the rest of the game which becomes quite repetitive.

I also thought CoH was nearly perfect.  I think it needed some PvP refinement (there were some real issues to address) and I think it could have used some variety as well.  We started to see variety with the Co-op zones (heroes and villains fighting together against the alien invasion, and in the new Roman taskforce).  We also saw some more depth with the introduction of crafting and the player auction house. 

Sadly, one of the things really affected by the PvP revamp was the crafting, buying and selling of enhancement sets.  A lot of questing, looting, crafting, buying and selling went out the window when a number of powers were removed or suppressed in PvP.  I really don't think taking away that much progress from players is justified, especially when you look at all the problems in the new system we were given.  Lots of pain, little gain.

Someone above mentioned the possibility of PvPers filtering back to CoH.  Again, that's why I checked the current status of the game.  If the CoH team could be big enough to admit that they rushed this revamp, cut us out of the process, and that this had unintended consequences, it would really get my attention.

If they then said, we're going to try this PvP thing over again, and this time do it right, I'd filter back.  Practically, I think this would mean going back to I12 PvP mechanics, and then working with the players, not against them, to find solutions to the bugs, exploits and issues that existed.  Plenty were put on the table, and we never got a chance to test them out.

Sure it would take time and effort, but I think it would be worth it.  It would make a better game, and it would build community rather than dividing it.    I also think gamers would find this kind of gesture refreshing.  If they're looking for ways to improve the game to compete with the other superhero MMOs, I think this gamble would be worth the effort.  They seem to be trying all kinds of things (e.g. architect, going rogue), why not try this?

PvP has never been even 20% of the main focus of this game, I don't see why players were shocked by anything.

Not that I ever cared about PvP in CoX, but this game's developers have always had a heavy hand with the nerf bat. It really does drive players away. But, isn't it odd how their stable their subscriptions are?

It's almost like - "Oh, no, we've attracted too new many players - what can we nerf to drive some of the older ones away?" :P

Still, I don't think CO will replace CoX. CO has higher system specs, more and different kinds of MTs (without previously having released years worth of free updates) and other game mechanics that won't be to everyone's liking.

CoX will almost certainly lose some subscribers - but I don't think it'll lose all of them.

I cut down on pvp drastically with i12, then quit the game completely when MA came out because it was converted into a farming machine. If you ask me, the state of CoH/V just gets worse these days, pvp was fun without the travel suppression, they did it to allow more casual players to pvp but they forgot that it also made the hardcore pvpers much stronger.

It's sad to see the state of a game degrade over time that I've played since early 2005, but it's a familiar thing- SOE doing it to SWG. Issue 7 was the best thing done to this game, but ever since after that it hasn't been the same.

Originally posted by Loke666

I don't think Champions will replace CoX. Mostly because you cant play a villain in champions, so either people will stay in CoX or go to DCU.

What kind of crap is making a game without the possibility tp play both sides anyways?

But it seems like NC soft are trying to see how much they can upset the playerbase, it have been a lot of complains after each update since they bought the game.

I read this "CO doesn't have villains" stuff a lot - the fact is most people who play CoH don't play villains anyway: CoV has FAR lower populations on all the servers, and hardly anyone PvPs anyway.

After hearing negative feedback from some of the Champions Online beta testers, I don't think the game will be that great.

Originally posted by havok527

After hearing negative feedback from some of the Champions Online beta testers, I don't think the game will be that great.

Agreed. As the game stands now, it has nothing to fear from Champions.

I realy wouldn't hold my breath for champions. It is very medicore and even though I was excited for the game I got realy bored after half an hour maby even less.

This game dissapoints on so many levels it's quite frankly the oposite of fun. But hay, thats just my opinion.

Some of the stuff I hear about Champions sounds like I might be curious. Were the beta free I'd try it out and then maybe buy. But since I either have to pre-order the game or subscribe to fileplanet ($15 minimum payment) for a game that goes live in 12 days, I'll pass.

As a CoH player I'll hear TONS of feedback on CO over the next few months and can decide form that, without having to be in the shaky pre-nerf days. I know that when open beta opened and they broke the game with their patch, that was all over the global channels in CoH.

Originally posted by Amarsir

Some of the stuff I hear about Champions sounds like I might be curious. Were the beta free I'd try it out and then maybe buy. But since I either have to pre-order the game or subscribe to fileplanet ($15 minimum payment) for a game that goes live in 12 days, I'll pass.

QFT

Last time I had to pay to get into a beta the game was awful. The developers were just looking to make a quick buck before everyone found out how crappy their game was. The "beta" was terrible and riddled with bugs. The "game" was mostly playable but there was nothing to really do other than grind levels. None of the features the devs had claimed their game would have were actually in the game in any sense. I didn't even get the impression the game was even designed to do such things or that the devs even really knew what they were doing at all. People started to complain and ask for refunds. A few lucky souls got refunds before the devs quickly locked everything down and stopped giving anyone anything. Many of the devs dissapeared and the official forums were sent into a state of panic. The mods just banned everyone who said anything negative about the game and deleted their posts. Later when the game actually released, the devs kept charging monthly subscription fees from people who had already cancelled their accounts in beta.

And the name of the game that did all this? Dark and Light.

The moral of the story is that you should never pay to get into a beta. Its always a last ditch effort from the developer to make a quick buck off of you before their game gets released and it becomes common knowledge that it doesn't live up to the hype.