Originally posted by Draccan

 

New trailer looked sweet and awesome. But what is a cinematics trailer for a game? Nothing. Once you play the game it won't matter. Cinematics trailers are just fun. And this one rivalled some of the best cinematics I have seen.

 

But truth is that Bioware is still keeping major parts of what this game is about under wraps. But for sure some things can be concluded now:

1. Classes. Players will be stuck in one class.
http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes
Seems to be eight classes. Jedi: Trooper, Jedi, Smuggler | Sith: Sith, Bounty Hunter

2. Factions. Players will be stuck in a faction - nothings points to mobility in allegiance.
Treaty of Coruscant = no real pvp
http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/allegiances

3. Space. Not going to be included. We would have known by now.
Some will add: SWG didn't have it at launch, but this isn't 2003. Market is now very over-saturated with mmos and will be even more in a few years. Companies like Funcom counts on selling just enough copies at launch to give them a surplus. They know their games don't have lasting potential. ToR will have even less longevity than AoC.

4. Instances. Hard to say, but I wouldn't be surprised they go the way of AoC.

5. Crafting. Bioware states time and time again that this game is about story and heroes. Crafting is not part of their thought-proces. It isn't that slick, so why include it. Crafting is about creating your OWN story. And Bioware's idea of story-telling is that THEY need to direct your story.

6. Non-combat classes. This game will center on heroes. Meaning, vanilla gameplay with limited options. Don't expect anything but minor non-combat skills.

7.  Release date. Not going to be before 2011. These games always get postponed. Just wait and see. Could even be later.

8. Gameplay linear? Yes it will be. While technically possible to create great stories in a non-linear environment.

9. Housing? Player Cities? Housing and player cities also goes against the grain of their story-driven mmo where players are heroes, not housebuilder or crafters.

10. Combat system. Not much is known. But it will be smaller variety on the WoW/EQ formula. Sort of like other games like TCoS or AoC tries to change the formula. Don't expect something truly different, but something towards those lines. Maybe with a few twitch elements here and there.

11. Jedis. This time period is chosen to appeal to all the kids who wants to have a light-saber swining jedi (or sith). It is the lowest common denominator. There is no two ways about. But the uniqueness of the jedi character will drown in the multitudes of them after a while. Will that feeling of "wow a lightsaber" last?

12. PvP. A bit unclear. Except it to be children friendly. But since it is factional there must be some. A cross between WoW and WAR is not unheard of. Can anyone honestly expect something more hardcore with the direction this game is taking?

13. Graphics. Most likely next-gen graphics. Some improvements on existing ways of doing it. Maybe similar to AoC quality.

 

Conclusion:

This game is the NGE that LA always wanted. It will be linear, story-driven, have few hours of longevity, cater to the light-saber crowds, kids - tie in with graphical style of the Clone Wars, little crafting, not hardcore pvp, not many options, but lots of hand-holding and lead you through the maze..

Some might now jump in and say that it is guess-work, that we don't know all the facts; that maybe there will be deep crafting, hardcore pvp, housing, space flight etc. But these comments are ignorant and nothing to do with the truth. Truth is that the path of TOR is already set and it is set up for eye candy and a hollow gameplay. Not a real MMO as it won't be that massive or free.

Games make and break at launch now. There is no time to make space six to twelve months after (and what good did it really do SWG in the long run). There is no time to make that expansion that fixes all the problems (WAR + AoC). Either you make it or you will suffer a slow, suffocating death.

Bioware has taken the easy route of doing everything as simple and dumped-down as possible. It won't be hardcore pvp, it won't be massive diverse game with many play-options like crafting and non-combat professions.

What game companies does not understand is that the whole foundation of mmos is built around the principle that players should have the option of doing what THEY want in the game. Interact in many ways and not just kill-botting each other or npcs over and over. The combat oriented gamer should want the crafters and non-combatees to give flair and atmosphere to their game - to be able to interact with when needing an armour or a new weapon. This is what breathes life into the genre.

What Bioware is doing is to put one more nail in the mmo genre coffin. This game might get close to a million boxes sold or even 1.5 - but in the end it will be like many other mmos out there with empty, EMPTY servers after six months. People will buy it for the name, Star Wars, but leave when they see there is no freedom in this game. For Bioware it will mean not only breaking even, but also making a big chunk of cash - but for the players - the gaming community - it is just one more way to kill PC gaming..

 

Draccan

 

 

I stopped reading after the highlighted text above.  You cannot come to any conclusive decisions because there is not enough information out there.  Nor will your rant have an effect on anything at all.  Bioware has a great track record for making amazing games and there's not much evidence to suggest that this game won't be great as well.  Just shut up and wait like the rest of us.

Originally posted by Draccan

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by Draccan

It is sort of funny to see that fans get so defensive over this and retort to name-calling and using the same old arguments about crystal balls..

Um... ok.  The crystal ball statement is because you are making very bold claims with absolutely no proof.  They could just have easily cut to the chase and tell you you have no idea what you are talking about, you have no proof, you are a liar.  But they were trying to be nice about it.

The problem is with your writing style.  You are speaking in absolutes, it comes off sounding like you have factual information but everything you say is just your own opinion.

DRACCAN: Let's see when we get to beta, who is right and who is wrong.

 

There, your response. Think you could have applied that before starting this thread?

While you insult the current fanbase of this game, you also turn around and completly make yourself look like an ass.

Basically this thread has been you saying "ToR will suck", somebody says your speaking in absolutes and know nothing about the game and you respond "Lets see when we get to beta".

Learn anything?

I put faith in Bioware.

KOTOR 1, awesome.

Mass Effect, awesome.

ME 2, looks awesome.

ToR?

If you follow their track record, it'll be awesome. Bioware is like Blizzard in that they won't release a game they think is crap. ToR will be a game that is a really good iteration of whatever type of game it will be...

If it's a story focused guided experience of a MMO it'll best the best MMO like that...

If it also includes some good open world/exploration/socialization components it'll be even better.

Originally posted by Proximo521

Originally posted by TookyG

Sigh.  Nevermind.  SWTOR will likely be fun for 15 minutes and then suck.

 

Huh, thats funny just like this post...........

Hey, I had something else written but since there's no delete option on the forum I just put a general opinion out there.  If you want something slightly more substantive, here you go.

In my opinion, I feel that SWTOR will indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and won't be fun for me.  I am also of the belief that the game will not garner 1 million plus long term subscrptions like many here seem to think it will.  I have little doubt that within, let's say, three months of release it will have 1 million subs.  However, I do not believe it will maintain, or grow, that number.

Also, did it really take you 15 minutes to read 13 words?

Originally posted by TookyG

Originally posted by Proximo521

Originally posted by TookyG

Sigh.  Nevermind.  SWTOR will likely be fun for 15 minutes and then suck.

 

Huh, thats funny just like this post...........

 

Hey, I had something else written but since there's no delete option on the forum I just put a general opinion out there.  If you want something slightly more substantive, here you go.

In my opinion, I feel that SWTOR will indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and won't be fun for me.  I am also of the belief that the game will not garner 1 million plus long term subscrptions like many here seem to think it will.  I have little doubt that within, let's say, three months of release it will have 1 million subs.  However, I do not believe it will maintain, or grow, that number.

Also, did it really take you 15 minutes to read 13 words?

Interesting that you are basing that on absolutely nothing.  That's "substantive"?  And you are an official "correspondent" for another game......

As if Warhammer didn't have enough bad things going for it.......

Originally posted by TookyG

Originally posted by Proximo521

Originally posted by TookyG

Sigh.  Nevermind.  SWTOR will likely be fun for 15 minutes and then suck.

 

Huh, thats funny just like this post...........

 

Hey, I had something else written but since there's no delete option on the forum I just put a general opinion out there.  If you want something slightly more substantive, here you go.

In my opinion, I feel that SWTOR will indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and won't be fun for me.  I am also of the belief that the game will not garner 1 million plus long term subscrptions like many here seem to think it will.  I have little doubt that within, let's say, three months of release it will have 1 million subs.  However, I do not believe it will maintain, or grow, that number.

Also, did it really take you 15 minutes to read 13 words?

As far as your opinion is concerned. I cant bash it. Its your opinion, and everyone has a right to one. With the phase that this game is in, I would rather not. I feel i dont have enough information to make a valid opinion. But if you do then.... go for it.

As for your second comment, you do realize they have time stamps on these posts? /fail

I think i will wait and play the game before i have a rant, but to be honest being a sw nerd im looking forward to it and cant wait ;)

* Shattered Steel (1996)
* Baldur's Gate (1998)
* Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast (1999)
* MDK2 (2000)
* Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (2000)
* Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal (2001)
* Neverwinter Nights (2002)
* Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide (2003)
* Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark (2003)
* Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker (2005)
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003)
* Jade Empire (2005)
* Mass Effect (2007)
* Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood (2008)
* Dragon Age: Origins (in-development) (2009)
* Mass Effect 2 (in-development) (Spring 2010)
* Mass Effect 3 (pre-development)
* Star Wars: The Old Republic[5] (in-development)
* Untitled Next Gen[6] (in-development)
This is a list of all Biowares games. They have sold well (can't say Im sure about the nintendo DS game thouggh). What makes you think they will fail for the first time now?

Biowares main sales point is that the games are fun and that you actually have to use your brain in them.

That is why I prefer Baldurs gate against Diablo, both games were fun but Diablo was slightly brain dead. And I expect the same thing about TOR, if you like brain dead action you should buy Wow or Blizzard upcoming MMO, if you like to think you buy Tor (or that upcoming next gen game, I hope it is a MMO version of Nwn or BG). And there is room for both hack and slash and games that demands more use of brains, these above games have sold well and hopefully it well get more people into the genre, we had the about same number now for a few year.

Originally posted by Loke666

* Shattered Steel (1996)
* Baldur's Gate (1998)
* Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast (1999)
* MDK2 (2000)
* Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (2000)
* Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal (2001)
* Neverwinter Nights (2002)
* Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide (2003)
* Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark (2003)
* Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker (2005)
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003)
* Jade Empire (2005)
* Mass Effect (2007)
* Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood (2008)
* Dragon Age: Origins (in-development) (2009)
* Mass Effect 2 (in-development) (Spring 2010)
* Mass Effect 3 (pre-development)
* Star Wars: The Old Republic[5] (in-development)
* Untitled Next Gen[6] (in-development)
This is a list of all Biowares games. They have sold well (can't say Im sure about the nintendo DS game thouggh). What makes you think they will fail for the first time now?

Biowares main sales point is that the games are fun and that you actually have to use your brain in them.

That is why I prefer Baldurs gate against Diablo, both games were fun but Diablo was slightly brain dead. And I expect the same thing about TOR, if you like brain dead action you should buy Wow or Blizzard upcoming MMO, if you like to think you buy Tor (or that upcoming next gen game, I hope it is a MMO version of Nwn or BG). And there is room for both hack and slash and games that demands more use of brains, these above games have sold well and hopefully it well get more people into the genre, we had the about same number now for a few year.

Well stated, I was waiting for somebody to pull out the track record which bioware is known for, I'm sure they will do everything possible to make a quality game.  Let them have some space get it into a open beta before making assumptions I say. Although I am scared of it becoming too much like Guild Wars, we will see.

Originally posted by andmiller

Interesting that you are basing that on absolutely nothing.  That's "substantive"?  And you are an official "correspondent" for another game......

 

As if Warhammer didn't have enough bad things going for it.......

I base my opinion on what's known of the game so far.  That's all that I can base it on.  I don't see why one cannot form an opinion on what's currently known and refine the opinion as more information is released.

Also, I haven't written anything for this site since before WAR was released.  They just keep the title on there for some reason and I can't change it.

Originally posted by Proximo521

As far as your opinion is concerned. I cant bash it. Its your opinion, and everyone has a right to one. With the phase that this game is in, I would rather not. I feel i dont have enough information to make a valid opinion. But if you do then.... go for it.

As for your second comment, you do realize they have time stamps on these posts? /fail

Regarding my opinion, see my post above this one.

Also, it was a joke.  I am well aware that you posted in less than 15 minutes.

Originally posted by k1klass

I think i will wait and play the game before i have a rant, but to be honest being a sw nerd im looking forward to it and cant wait ;)

Now what are you doing coming here with a sensible post like that??

I think this game will be an epic win.  At least for me and those who like a truly casual / solo friendly / story oriented game.  What remains to be seen is how large this type of player base will be.  Personally, I think it will turn out to be much larger than say raiders or hardcores, which means a moderately to very successful game.

These types of threads really frustrate me.  Normally I'd say "no harm in pure speculation", but the reality is that there is indeed harm in it.  Time and time again, we've all seen it happen in these forums:  somebody speculates and within weeks it somehow becomes "fact" quoted elsewhere in new threads.

Here's the simple reality folks... most of what the OP posts about in this thread is just that... pure speculation.  Just because Bioware has chosen not to provide complete details on every feature in the game does not necessarily mean that it won't be there.  In fact, I respect the fact that Bioware has taken this approach.  When other game companies do the opposite (make claims that they later need to rescind) everybody is up in arms about the broken promises, the unethical behavior, etc.  So Bioware is taking a cautious approach.  This ensures that (1) they only release information about "sure bets" and (2) they build anticipation and mystery.

Also, you can hardly assume that what you see in screenshots/gameplay videos at this stage is in any way representative of the final product.  For people to suggest there will be a limited number of customization options for weapons, etc. is once again pure speculation based upon practically no real data.  It's akin to reading one (randomly selected) paragraph of a book and then assuming you know what the entire story is about.  This MMO is still quite a ways off from release (knowing a Bioware employee, I have a pretty good idea of when that will be, but won't break his trust by saying anything here).... we have a long way to go before anybody should start speculating.

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

Sounds like another whining SWG fan who still can't get over that game and refuses to accept that this game, while different, could actually be entertaining.

Most of your arguments were completely baseless with no foundation in fact to back up your claims. The other half were just the tired sandbox vs. non-sandbox argument I have heard countless times on this forum.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the fact that this game is not like SWG is a good thing. Any developer in their right mind will learn from the mistakes of the past and not copy game mechanics from FAILED titles like SWG. Even before the NGE, that game was already bleeding subscribers and dying a slow death.

I am so very glad that TOR will be approaching the Star Wars franchise from a new and fresh and very possibly EXCITING standpoint. I have never understood why some people would rather play a nerf herder or any sort of a crafter than a STAR WARS oriented class. I don't remember a single time one of the characters in the movies gathered meaningless resources to sell stupid items in their customized homes. That just IS NOT exciting or important AT ALL to the storyline or universe of Star Wars.

I so wish that someone would make a game for you people so that you will stop trying to ruin other titles. PLEASE someone make World of Onlycraft so they will leave my games alone... 

Originally posted by Draccan

 

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

And an old one:

"I hope so. I think it's a genre that's ripe for innovation. I think that WoW was the last landmark title, and of course it still drives success, but it's probably time for someone to step up and do something.

RM: I agree. And it's not a slight at all on Blizzard. I think they've done a great job. But the fact that people want to play that kind of game is an opportunity to really deliver that level of polish and quality, and innovate in a few key areas, while they continue to innovate in a few key areas, too. "

Ray Muzyka, founder and CEO of BioWare,

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3667/a_new_future_under_ea_ray_muzyka_.php?page=2

Originally posted by Draccan

 http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

This is a big misconception that many MMO players seem to make. Alas, I enter to clarify.

Having a guided experience in a MMO does not have to mean linear A to B game play and it does not mean that a game cannot still be a sandbox.

"Finding the fun" means simply to show players where cool stuff is that they can do.

Players DO want to be guided to different things, they just want to have choices. Players like you don't want to be led from point A to point B with no possibility of going off the path that is laid before you.

You want choices, you want options.

You can have the game guide you and show you the fun things to do without leading you by the hand between them.

Do you understand? 

When ToR's game director says that "you never want people to have to look for fun" he is very, very right. It's simply good game design. They spend countless hours and ridiculous sums of money to make this content for you to enjoy, it's only logical that they'd like to say "hey, look over here something cool and fun to do!"

What you and other sandbox types want is choices, you don't want to HAVE to go from Point A to Point B. You want to make your own path. You can do this with guidance and direction from the developers. They can show you the fun, and it's your choice if you want to do it or not.

But saying that you don't want any direction or guidance is simply asking for an exercise in frustration and annoyance that will likely lead to you never wanted to pick up the game ever again.

This is the very reason 99% of games come with tutorials.

Showing the fun is really the same as saying showing the content. Directing you to content and saying "here, I made this for you. Enjoy."

What you don't want is to be force fed this content, I get that. Games like WoW force feed you quest content because there really is no alternate path. You have to complete the quests in certain orders in certain zones etc.

It is yet to be seen if SW: ToR will force feed you the content or simply show you all the cool stories they made and allow you to choose to do them or not.

In SWG pre-CU, there was no content. It was "go and figure it out" much like EVE, original UO, etc. 

Historically speaking, based off of subsciption numbers and reviews, the vast majority of players these days don't respond to that kind of game anymore.

So let me get this straight Draccan, based on a couple sentences you believe you know exactly the kind of game Bioware is making and how people will react to it and the quality of it.  And knowing those things you know the game will be an epic fail.  Hrm, only thing I find curious is that you seem to think it will be a fail because it seems, from those couple sentences, to be taking lessons from the most successful MMO in the history of MMOs.  I think I see now, it makes perfect sense - you got very little info and you are presuming that info equates to them aiming at an MMO style that has over 10 million subscribers and that is why it will be an obvious fail.

Sure some of these statements are an insight into the kind of game ToR might be, and yes it may seem it is more WoW than old time sanbox. Of course we have no idea the quality of the game regardless of what its style might be.  Proclaiming a fail in the making simply because it is of a style like WoW when that style has had far more success than any other MMO style is just stupid.  I am no WoW fan, never even play and have no interest in playing, but it is clear that WoW is a success beyond any MMO ever conceived so that style is viable if done right.  As with anything the devil will be in the details and how finished and balanced it is when it releases, and how well supported after release. 

OP:

Really? SWTOR is a failure already? Did you forget who's developing it?

Yeah.. Bioware. They're one of those companies in which everything they touch turns to gold.

Besides that, if the release date is "not going to be before 2011", then why are you expecting a crapload of information to be out to the public already? Which MMO have you seen developed in which all class info, faction info, crafting info, pvp info, and the plethora of other info you ask for was released 2-4 years before the actual game release?

And another thing... Why the hell do people get so pissed off over the jedi class? I can provide statistical information which proves that 90% of star wars fans love jedi (which, by the way, the story was based around).

I see the point where a bunch of kids would just play the game for the jedi class and expect to be uber-pwn-rape-sauce, but still. Tell me with a straight face that you think this game would be complete without the jedi class.