Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

1 (2hours 5minutes) point costs: 0.1805 buying from CH-USA if you buy 100 Points at once. Which equals about 208 hours worth of play time. Which in turn equals 6.9hours / day in a 30 day month.

So to play say nearly 7 hours/day you would pay $18. And this is through a third party retailer that needs to make money on it as well. (SDO doesn't take (foreign) creditcards it seems).

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

 

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

Political discussion can get kind of sensitive, and may even run afoul at times of proscriptions in the rules of conduct.  My usual rule of thumb is not to engage in political discussion when I don't know what I'm talking about.  I understand some people have different rules for themselves.

As a matter of opinion, I happen to agree with Diluvium in that the approach used is an interesting development.  It puts a bit more economic risk on the developers, but if they make a game that's engaging and that makes people want to play a lot, the risk may be worth it.  From a player's perspective, unless someone plays an inordinate amount of time or the amount charged per unit of time is too high, this model could be economically beneficial to the individual player.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Khalathwyr, I can't say that I agree with your assements, as I'm always attempting to learn from everyone. I don't always agree with Aihoshi, but he is usually worth reading to see what his current take on F2P games are. I've played quite a number myself. The longest was Cabal(level 105 warrior).  They tend to follow the usual formula that one expects from Asian grinders. Some to a greater or lesser extent(Runes of Magic comes to mind as a good take on some of the WoW dynamics in a F2P game).  I've not received the same impressions you state. But F2P hasn't met the best reception in the west(with a few exceptions). Some of that might be due to poor localization, much is due to cut and paste engine reworks. Which might be why he seems defensive at times.

Not sure which assessment you aren't agreeing with, not that I posted this in an attempt to gain your acceptance. Those numbered points are what I (as I stated before) get from Aihoshi. Reading his writing it is very easy to see those sentiments conveyed by him. And as far as learning from everyone, well, you first have to find people that have something, some knowledge or insight that is worthy of being taught. Aihoshi, in my view, hasn't displayed this at any point so far. He seems, in my opinion, to be the beneficiary of being in the right place and time to get a writing break and to be doing this "job". I've yet to read anything "enlightening" from him, even if I disagreed with it which has been the case with Dana and Sanya, that gives merit to him having such a podium to preach from. Point of fact, I have read posts from those in our community that were much more thoughtful and worthy of taking up the space Aihoshi is being slotted.

Essentially, I'm not sure what is so special about his "take" on f2p games as he hasn't displayed, in my view, any qualities in his writing that the vast majority of gamers out there don't have.

Good read. 

One thing about my guild in WoW is that being 'needed' kept me playing that game long past the point where I was actually enjoying it.  Something that is lacking in most MMORPGs is challenging single player content.  Only when the developers must take into account a large number of players do they seem able to abstract  the classes down into rudimentary enough numbers in order for the game to be a challenge.   People definately are looking for games that they can advance in individually.  Most of the people content to raid the same content week in and week out are pretty much just sheep who won't leave the game even if a better game does come out, F2P or P2P, unless the game is 'big enough' to warrant the guild leader jumping ship.  

Originally posted by bmdevine

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

 

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

Political discussion can get kind of sensitive, and may even run afoul at times of proscriptions in the rules of conduct.  My usual rule of thumb is not to engage in political discussion when I don't know what I'm talking about.  I understand some people have different rules for themselves.

As a matter of opinion, I happen to agree with Diluvium in that the approach used is an interesting development.  It puts a bit more economic risk on the developers, but if they make a game that's engaging and that makes people want to play a lot, the risk may be worth it.  From a player's perspective, unless someone plays an inordinate amount of time or the amount charged per unit of time is too high, this model could be economically beneficial to the individual player.

Simple statements of  fact may well be "sensitive" to some, but they remain facts none the less. That in fact is why Aion and many of the other games are using this and related models. I direct your attention to the Chinese governments "crack down" on on line games over the last 18 months.  Unless the fact that you dispute is that the Chinese government is a dictatorship?  That is self apparent. Any way, enough of that. 

As a business model the pay as you go approach, while logical on the surface is prone to creeping abuse(just as RMT is). Not to mention that in this case, the company can place the blame on the government.  Free market dynamics idealy would prevent such abuse. Unfortunately most markets are anything but free. Look at the steep barriers to entry of this particular market sector as an example.  Like it or not, the subscription game model is the one currently accepted by the majority in the Western world. That may change as time passes, but its not happening any time soon.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

...................... Reading his writing it is very easy to see those sentiments conveyed by him. And as far as learning from everyone, well, you first have to find people that have something, some knowledge or insight that is worthy of being taught. Aihoshi, in my view, hasn't displayed this at any point so far. He seems, in my opinion, to be the beneficiary of being in the right place and time to get a writing break and to be doing this "job". I've yet to read anything "enlightening" from him, even if I disagreed with it which has been the case with Dana and Sanya, that gives merit to him having such a podium to preach from. Point of fact, I have read posts from those in our community that were much more thoughtful and worthy of taking up the space Aihoshi is being slotted.

Essentially, I'm not sure what is so special about his "take" on f2p games as he hasn't displayed, in my view, any qualities in his writing that the vast majority of gamers out there don't have.

/agree. As the Op is a self professed dabbler, without data and may often not get 'the point' of any particular mmo, I’m a little bemused as to why he is given such visibility.

 Blue Falcon: a version of the military acronym BF which stands for Buddy F*&%er. That is what someone who behaves in a manner which elevates his personal needs or desires above those of the unit to which he belongs.

froggyruminations.blogspot.com/2004/08/flight-of-blue-falcon.html

This was an interesting article.

I play like this simply because I really don't have the time week after week to devote to a "game".

Gaming, to me, is entertainment, not a lifestyle. Therefore when my time is demanded by other concerns, gaming drops to the wayside.

I also haven't looked for the endgame and endboss since Duke Nukem II. All that time and trouble in a single-player game? To do that in an MMORPG with the time needed to train up, form or join a guild, maintain good relationships, get a good group of mates together and we're going to have to try how many times?

I don't think so.

No, I play games to be entertained, not to work. Work effort I'd rather put into Photoshop. When I get sick of work I want fun, not more work.

So I go kill some mobs, buy or craft some gear, then the phone rings and I'm glad I can just shut it down.

Where does F2P fit into this scenerio?

Simply that I don't have to pay if I don't want to. Any gratification can wait - months if needed without costing me a cent - and that...that is a very good thing.

Id like him to altleast give us and in depth review of a couple free to play than rather just the concept of F2P, because the concept for a F2P is good but its never been done well, or with a good game.

Originally posted by SgtFrog

Id like him to altleast give us and in depth review of a couple free to play than rather just the concept of F2P, because the concept for a F2P is good but its never been done well, or with a good game.

Good points, but do you know how long it takes to get to even mid level in one of the Asian grinders? Its just not time effective. I typically play them up into the 100's, but that takes quite a bit of time, since I'm not on 24/7. Not to mention that all too many of the F2P games use the same engine, thats just been reskinned and rule mod'ed.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Okay, I tried. I tried to give this guy the benefit of doubt that he actually had "something interesting" to say within the space of MMOs, f2p or p2p. All I'm seeing, however, is a constant "defensive" series of ranting with a very, very weak attempt at draping it in the form of discussion and/or semi-intelligent opinion. It always leads back to some thinly veiled slap of the face to anyone who doesn't worship at the alter of f2p games next to Aihoshi.

1) If you don't love f2p games, there's obviously something wrong with you.

2) No matter your reason for not liking them, your reasons are neanderthal at best and you are a simpleton.

3) I don't play these f2p games for more than 50 hours (2 days, 2 hours), but in my "impression play period" I can definitively state that they offer top notch quality and if any of you have played them for longer and state anything to the contrary, you're obviously a fool and don't know what you're talking about.

That about sums Aihoshi up for me. Sorry, bud, I don't give a crap how long you've been on some gamesite "writing" about games. You don't "know any better" that a large percentage of the MMO community and really have no place making some of the snide swipes that you make.

I've seen a few Blue Falcons (you can Google it if you don't know what it means) in my time, but you...I'm hard pressed to think of anyone in my personal experieces that surpasses you. And yes, before anyone else says it, moving forward I'll exercise my right not to read these jokes of internet literary "work".

Dana's articles: Spot on. They show he's down here in the trenches and has a finger on the pulse of the heart of the MMO community.

Sanya's articles: Good work. (and as I said before originally I wasn't keen on her when she was at Mythic as CM)

Jess' articles: Ok. I don't agree with his "tastes" as far as MMO gaming and where it "should go, but he doesn't finger point.

 

I think you just do not like him as a writer, for whatever reasons you may have, but he's not talking about F2P MMOs. He clearly talking about his current playing habits and labeling it as a MSOG playstyle and in turn how F2P MMOs make a good fit for this playing style. Which I might add a lot of players tend to fit in this habit of playing F2P games.

It's like he talking about apples and how he enjoys Granny Smiths, Washingtons, Fujis and all the different kinds apples he can sample and then saying how he enjoys eating them fresh. Now we all know that's not the only way to enjoy an apple. You can bake pies with them, tarts, make juice or apple sauce. The possibilities are available but he enjoys them fresh and thinks lots of people do.

The you come in here and state that oranges are freakin awesome!

I can totally relate to what he is saying.  I belong to a guild of players that is very diverse.  We play many games, some at the same time, some not.

While we have several that still play WOW mainly, we also have another group that play many different games at once.  I can't afford to carry every single game we try out all of the time.   We have different work schedules, new babies, and time zone issues.  I find myself playing solo alot,  even in new games we are all playing.  While I very much enjoy those times we can actually all get together at once, it doesn't seem to happen as often these days.

I have no problem at all playing alone.  That doesn't mean I don't enjoy that there are lots of others on the server at the same time.  MSOG works for me, I can still talk to people, still relate to my guild mates, and not feel like I am missing out on leet lootz.

I couldn't agree more..Although I have played several games VERY hard, I generally tend to play several games more casually nowadays...

I almost always play MMOs...But I almost always play them in a solo-style...

I rarely join guilds or clans, and although I do sometimes play with friends or others, most of the time I'm exploring and fighting on my own...

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by SgtFrog

Id like him to altleast give us and in depth review of a couple free to play than rather just the concept of F2P, because the concept for a F2P is good but its never been done well, or with a good game.

 

Good points, but do you know how long it takes to get to even mid level in one of the Asian grinders? Its just not time effective. I typically play them up into the 100's, but that takes quite a bit of time, since I'm not on 24/7. Not to mention that all too many of the F2P games use the same engine, thats just been reskinned and rule mod'ed.

Richard Aihoshi certainly doesn't! He said himself he never gets that far. :P

To be honest all of his articles I've read so far I've found to be big walls of babbling text totally bereft of any actual content.

There seems to be no reference, no actual research and nothing but vagueness and sweeping generalisations about F2P games without ever having to get down to the nitty gritty of specifics.

The fact that he self-professedly jumps from ship to ship with only a quick glance at the sails and no exploration of the boat itself would seem to explain why...