Originally posted by tepthtanis

But the whole point of the game Jason is to improve and if u can't where do u go from there? Oh! Hi Jason! How r u? It turns into RF after that...And everyone plays games to get away from real life.

For some, it is, but not for all. And see this is the biggest disagreement over WOW. Its not hardcore/casuals, its people who think WOW is all about improving your character via the gear grind.

I have played WOW off and on since launch and other than the early 40 man raids (which ironically drove me from the game), I have NEVER grinded for gear.

I play for fun. I play to do advance my character through content. I don't care what the drops are or the gear or the arena points or whatever. I remember downing Onyxia for the first time, Ragnaros for the first time, clearing Khara and ZA, etc.... And what do I remember more than anything - the people who helped and were there with me. It was a great achievement for all of us and thats what I like about WOW.

And this is why most people who hate WOW don't get it. The majority of players are not in harccore raiding guilds with stupid rules or with time committment requirements. The majority are in relaxed guilds that play for the fun of it.

Originally posted by Vetarnias

Of all the games I have played (no, it does not include Darkfall), I found World of Warcraft to have the most immature player base. 

No, your little segment of people that you knew on your server were immature. Not all of WOW's playerbase is immature at all, only what you experienced.

When I was around (last November-January), I could not count the number of times I've been begged for money -- including by someone level-20ish who later told me he had made 450 gold just by begging, and promptly spent it all on items with prices scandalously inflated because of twinkers.

Sure, I have a few people beg to which I respond with "Welcome to ignore". These are isolated cases though and maybe has happened 10 times since launch. Gold to so easy to come by now, even at lower levels, most people don't beg anymore. And those who do have an ulterior motive.

How can we explain those immature "anal" posts in trade chat, which seem to be present on all servers, as well as those incessant Chuck Norris jokes in Barrens, if not as a testament to the immaturity of the community?

Stereotypical comments of WOW bashers and I have not seen anything of the sort on my server in a LONG time.

For those in this thread who would extol the virtues of the "casuals" against the elitist hardcore -- take a long, hard look at WoW's own brand of hardcore elitism: the clockwork raider guilds advertising in cities, and asking that you already be properly geared before they let you join. The pressure of some guilds to have their members level to 80.  I can't remember the details too much (because that was 5 months ago), but a string of utterly immature bulk letters from my guild leader about how we weren't levelling fast enough, or that we weren't rolling healers, almost caused my friends and I to quit his guild.

That was the guild you chose to join. Not all guilds are like this - and I would fathom, most are nothing like this. The beauty of WOW is that there is so much to choose from, you can find a guild that fits your play style easily.

Typical of WoW fanboys not to give you the whole picture.  They'll gladly point to the idiots hacking their way through Darkfall, but they won't tell you of the WoW treadmill for gear which isn't more distinguished.  If anything, the "hardcore" that some of you bemoan aren't particularly interested in gear; some of them would tell you that they are saner than the rest of the players because they form no attachment to virtual properties (which, to be honest, I think is a bogus explanation).  It is your casuals, as someone pointed out before I posted, who display an inordinate interest in gear, which is what WoW dangles before them to keep them subscribed.

Actually, casuals, can be interested in anything (that is part of the term casual). By your explanation, casuals would be hardcore because all they want to do is to get gear (which is raiding a lot). I play casually and I enjoy leveling alts, crafting, mining, collecting pets, doing achievements, running 5 mans to get some rep if I need it, help friends out with their quests and characters, etc....

No offense, but your post is that of a stereotypical WOW hater who only sees the game through their own jaded view and refuses to see how others can enjoy it when they cannot.

And granted I am biased since I do enjoy the game, but people need to realize that there is more than one way to play and for many of us that enjoy the game, this is what makes it special.

That is my argument again Templarga...What guild...what realm? I have met so many dispicable souls sinse I joined...What is the point of playing this game? To be accussed of stealing, cheating, adultery... and getting racist comments from several sourses... Is that what wow is all about?

Originally posted by tepthtanis

That is my argument again Templarga...What guild...what realm? I have met so many dispicable souls sinse I joined...What is the point of playing this game? To be accussed of stealing, cheating, adultery... and getting racist comments from several sourses... Is that what wow is all about?

Well I started WOW with my own guild from EQ. We broke up and then I joined a guild that I met in another game's beta (they are a huge gaming group) and stayed with them until the guild grew TOO big.

Now I am in a small, family style guild on a server. It took me weeks of trial and error to find a guild that fit with me. Others were great guilds, but just not for me.

My recommendation is go to whatever server forums you play on (pick an older, non-pvp or RP server to start). Check out the server's forums for lots of drama and look through stickied guild lists and then visit each guild's own websites. And then choose carefully.

I did and here I am...I've done everything u said and then some. There is always someone out for u in every guild I go to...I advance quickly I get accussed of brownnosing...I take my time and I get acussed of taking advantage of the guild though I never took nothing. I try to be impartial and get accussed of being antisocial...the list goes on... do u want o hear the rest?

Originally posted by tepthtanis

I did and here I am...I've done everything u said and then some. There is always someone out for u in every guild I go to...I advance quickly I get accussed of brownnosing...I take my time and I get acussed of taking advantage of the guild though I never took nothing. I try to be impartial and get accussed of being antisocial...the list goes on... do u want o hear the rest?

Just what I thought Templarga and Jason_Webb...Wow is losing faith...Joining a guild is like signing a death warrent. U will try to help but get nowhere. There isn't a guild out there that doesn't have it's own interest's in mind...

Originally posted by sayuri2006

I humbly would like to thank the World of Warcraft Community for setting me free. I did really enjoy this game, but since WOTLK and that alot of the game content is catered more towards casuals, it has in my eyes made the community the worst I have had to see in an MMORPG. Of course, that's a pretty bold statement considering that not everyone is abusive and self indulgent, sure I agree. I also agree that you can find a good guild, and meet good friends, and it may change from server to server.

But it doesn't take a whole community for me to realise that there are some people that should honestly look at what they are saying to people, especially to people they don't know. I have been fortunate to meet some good people and to be in a good guild, but for me the community and people's outlook in the game really took me over the edge I'm sorry to say. I do not need to give any examples, but at the worst of times, you really have to wonder why an entire chat channel was devoted to making some guy look like a loser because he was new to the game and used the normal chat channel to seek help. On the two servers I was on, it was almost like everyone was out to get each other, prove to one another, and stomp on top of one another. The problem with this is that it changes people and how they play the game, it filters through the normal chat channels through into guilds, makes more people want to solo and not PUG and if grouped do it fast and quietly.

I am not saying that the overall community of other games doesn't have it's problems, in my experience, but like a disease it seems to have effected the WoW Community.

Please bear in mind that I am open to discussion on this, other players may feel differently. What are your thoughts, because to me a game's community is important. I have experienced in other games that any abusers or grievers are quickly dealt with by the community by been outright ignored and maybe even intervention by a GM. On my two servers in WoW, however, it was rampant, not dealt with or ignored, even urged on by other players at times. So...
 

Thoughts??

I have come to believe it is not the "WoW Players", but the MMO community in general (latest example would be Darkfall, no?).

Although even that is untrue, since I also believe it is a small percentage of people that are simply too immature to even know it.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Actually, the more casual a PAID mmorpg becomes the more friendly people in general will behave, because they have a life beyond the game.

It is the hardcore in search for their ultimate goal (of what for some used to be "gear") that make the problems in most games.

Hardcore PvP guys are the worst and that was amply shown in recently launched newer mmorpg's, resulting in low to no commnunications  and elitist behaviour.

In fact Wow these days still suffers from the (false) elitist dwellers, but as the actual difficulty became more user friendly to the casuals, people talk more about other things in game than pure gear and greed matters.

Your impression is based on personal perception, but the general trend is that the more casual a PAID game becomes the less stress is put on players.

---> As Wow is still a PAID subscription based game, the positive casual aspect is even more pronounced. (as opposed to another meaning of "casual" in free to play games where the "free to do whatever" mentality reigns.)

---->  People that play casual can wait for gear to drop, can wait for the next level to ding, can play on times when their life permits it. So explain why casuals would be more unfriendly unless their individual personalties would dicatate so.

 

       Actually I found the complete opposite to be true.........The casuals are often the bigger jackasses because they dont care.... I have played a few hardcore games and a few casual oriented games and without a doubt the better communities have always been the ones that were more hardcore oriented....... Darkfall is probably the one exception to the rule.

No...the jackass's r the jackass's and the casual players r the casual players...There r jackass's at every level of game play...the real test is to get away from them and ignore them...The jackass's I mean...

Originally posted by sayuri2006

 you really have to wonder why an entire chat channel was devoted to making some guy look like a loser because he was new to the game and used the normal chat channel to seek help.

Thoughts??

No I don't.  These are teenish kids (for the most part) with internet anonymity.  The same kids that aren't well rounded that sit against the sides of buildings during lunch, drinking their apple juice boxes and avoiding eye contact whenever possible.

They have the social skills of an eggplant, they have the backbone of a wet towel, and the leadership abilities of a lincoln log.

So with all of that combined... You get exactly what you described + would piss themselves if you said boo to them irl.

It's interesting how people complain about bad communities and how they quit a game because of it.  Think about it.  Look where you are RIGHT NOW!  You are reading and posting in what some would consider a VERY bad community.  Just go into a game forum and do a simple "review" of how the game sux and see what happens, lmao.  If communities really make you quit games, you sure as hell shouldn't be here!

Z

I think u r picking on me because I have a cooler skull than u do.

Originally posted by tepthtanis

<Mod Edit>

Not trying to be "tough" (I'll leave that to you kids) just making a point.  Of course the community matters, never said it didn't.  With the comment above, I guess we can see how YOU behave online, lmao.  Grow up kid.  That just brings up another bit of irony... how immaturely people complain about immaturity!  Could you follow that??

Z

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Originally posted by tepthtanis
Just what I thought Templarga and Jason_Webb...Wow is losing faith...Joining a guild is like signing a death warrent. U will try to help but get nowhere. There isn't a guild out there that doesn't have it's own interest's in mind...

---

You say these things as if they are a typical experience for everyone, but that is just you projecting your own views. Being in a guild has been the saving grace for me in wow, there is no way i would have stayed in the game as long as i have without decent players alongside me. Community is a big thing for me in any MMO, ever since i first played Earth and Beyond which had a fantastic community, so much so that i still chat with a couple of the guys i played alongside nearly five years after it closed down.

I am currently in a guild run by a husband and wife with the social aspects of the game being paramount to all in there. We run HC's, we raid a little dabbling in OS and Naxx, but first and foremost it is about the enjoyment of the game as a whole and socialising with like minded people. We also chat outside the game via facebook or e-mail which just extends the social vibe even more.

The wow community is at the end of the day what you make of it yourself, can't put it any simpler than that.

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Originally posted by tepthtanis
Just what I thought Templarga and Jason_Webb...Wow is losing faith...Joining a guild is like signing a death warrent. U will try to help but get nowhere. There isn't a guild out there that doesn't have it's own interest's in mind...

---

 

You say these things as if they are a typical experience for everyone, but that is just you projecting your own views. Being in a guild has been the saving grace for me in wow, there is no way i would have stayed in the game as long as i have without decent players alongside me. Community is a big thing for me in any MMO, ever since i first played Earth and Beyond which had a fantastic community, so much so that i still chat with a couple of the guys i played alongside nearly five years after it closed down.

I am currently in a guild run by a husband and wife with the social aspects of the game being paramount to all in there. We run HC's, we raid a little dabbling in OS and Naxx, but first and foremost it is about the enjoyment of the game as a whole and socialising with like minded people. We also chat outside the game via facebook or e-mail which just extends the social vibe even more.

The wow community is at the end of the day what you make of it yourself, can't put it any simpler than that.

 

 

 

As highlighted in red, truer words were never said. Thanks for that. I totally agree with the above post, you are lucky to have a good guild around you. For me, however, the community at large plays an important group as well or you might as well just be playing and communicating sorely with your guildies.

I really think it must be hard having to deal with the WoW community....go check out their forums on the new changes to forms for Druids. Although a little overdue, still people are complaining and moaning because they don't like the new forms. Instead of being so selfish....think that the Devs have done well to makes these changes in the first place and you can enjoy some visual variety. Sorry...I'm ranting a little, just Blizzard is trying hard to please the Druid populace and still some people do nothing but bad rant and say: "You suck."

There are a lot of a thoughtful and thought provoking posts within this thread, and as many have said, there are some hot-button issues discussed within the thread. There is one issue though, that grinds my nerves to no end: The casual-vs-hardcore debate.

The casual vs. hardcore debate rages on here, as it does on the main WoW forums. I will be the first to admit that I am one of those dreaded casual players who plays when life allows it. Sometimes I can get a couple of hours play time per night, sometimes I can a go a week or more without playing; it all depends on the various ups and downs of my schedule. I have been playing WoW this way almost four years now, and I've been in four guilds during that entire time. The first two met their demise at the hands of a guild leader who wasn't satisfied, and wanted something more so he switched from Alliance to Horde (with many of us following him) and then ultimately transferred off server. The third guild was disbanded in the middle of the night by the guild leader, and the fourth guild is my current guild.

Why tell you all this? Perhaps to put an end to the myth that all casuals are guild hoppers, loot divas, and whining babies.

I know my schedule, I let my guild leader(s) know my schedule and never will I sign up for a guild event when I don't know if I will be able to attend. I never asked for loot, never once whined about not receiving gear and was content with questing if no one was able to run an instance. Yet I still end up dealing with the stigma of being a "casual player". I read many forums daily and I see how angry much of the WoW player base gets at the casuals, in fact, I have been angry at the casuals who demanded equal gear for less time. I didn't want that, I wanted and still want to earn my gear. I don't want free epics, nor do I want a game to cater to my playstyle. I want to walk through any city and be in awe of the gear I see on the players who have the time and the ability to run Ulduar, or any end-game instance/raid.

In game, I'm friendly to a fault and will help anyone who needs it. I keep up to date on my gear choices, spec, and put everything I can into making sure that I am well geared for my level and for the gear I have. I don't beg, I never have and never will. I play WoW mainly with my husband and some friends, some of whom I know only in game and others I know out of game.

With that said, and to get the post back on topic; I personally do not think the community as a whole is awful. I do think that the bad-(in many ways beyond just skill)-players far out weigh the good players, but I think a lot of that can be contributed to the amount of players as a whole within WoW. I've played many MMOs, starting with EQ and moving through a gammut of games: EQ, EQ2, LoTRO, DnD Online, CoH/CoV, Guild Wars, WoW, and so on. Still, I come back to WoW at least for now. Yes, the community has gotten worse in the sense of blatant violations and the attitudes of many and yes WoW has earned a name for itself amongst many MMORPG players as the game to avoid unless you want to witness the worst of humanity. (Sorry, I can't speak for Darkfall as I haven't tried that one yet and do not plan too.)

Still, I manage to have fun and meet new people every day. I personally believe that the community in any game is what you make of it and how you take part within the community. I've seen the smallest of guilds have a huge impact upon a server because they welcome new players and do their best to be inviting. I've seen large guilds go down infamy and end up being chased off a server because they refuse to do anything more than "troll" the server and brag about their accomplishments. I have seen servers where anything goes and no one talks or does anything with anyone outside of guild mates. Each of these communities is vastly different, and yet each one offers something to the players who want it and enjoy it.

If trade chat bothers you, turn it off or place it within another window and don't bother with it unless you need an item or services of another crafting profession. Try giving back to your community, and see what happens. If a newbie is being chastised and treated like pond scum because they ask a question; then try to help that newbie. I've chastised people for acting like jerks in chat and there is nothing more rewarding than seeing a "troll" shut down by a group of people; and then seeing the community band together to help the new player. It happens, its rare, but it does happen from time to time. I've been witness to and on the receiving end of help from my own guild mates when my husband and I lost power for a week due to a storm. I've been humbled and honored by their concern when my son had an emergency appendectomy in January and further more when they prayed-(despite none of them being all that religious)-for him as he underwent many medical tests recently.

In closing, I wish you the best OP and hope you and any others who have left for another game; find what you are looking for in a gaming community. Just remember, that its not always the casual-vs-hardcore debate, and sometimes you have to be a part of the community to really see just how good it can be.

Kith

Well spoken

I agree with the original poster.

The problem stems from 2 things that people have mentioned many, many times.

Parents aren't raising their children worth a crap and let TV and the Internet do all the work for them. Thus, the average American teenager has absolutely no desire to respect the time spent and desire for enjoyment from the game that others are seeking that play along side of them.

The second part is that the game actively promotes solo play for initial leveling and gearing, and Blizzard has made instance running mind-numbingly easy for hyperactive nitwits to beat them and move on. Thus, most of the players don't have to give a crap about how they treat others or their in-game character reputation as there's plenty of other noobs to PUG encounters with.

Say what you want about Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Final Fantasy XI (that last game with its initial release). The concept of forced grouping MADE players give a rat's ass about respecting the other players and being up front with time they had available for play, etc. If you were an asshat player, you went on a list and people made it their business to keep you out of their leveling groups. Which would force you to join a guild to level if you weren't in one already, and get a second chance at not treating THEM like dirt as well.

The grouchy old man has spoken.

The problem with "forcing" players to group up and deal with each other is that it makes for a very crappy game.

Bored with nothing to do at 5am server time? Sorry you cant play your favorite game because you need to have a group to level and everyone else is asleep. You just got out of work and are tired and wanna play for a bit? well time to get ready to wait and look for a group, o yea thats fun...

So what if you are an ass to other players because they suck at the game and you dont (or at least you think you dont.) you shouldn't have to sugar coat it to them or hold their hand though a terrible Dungeon/Instance/Raid, WoW is a game that is defined by its seperation of Scrubs and Elitest, you can completely ignore everyone not in your guild if needs be (which quite frankly most do.) and this is some how a problem? I think if most people could /ignore IRL they would certain people.

MMOs that force group work during the leveling stage either 1. Don't have an endgame worth getting to so they make it as difficult as possible to obtain max level. 2. Can't balance classes to be able to solo past the entry level game play, and not be gamebreakingly powerful at endgame.

What WoW does have over these other games is time, and the willingness to modify the game to make it less troublesome on areas that are frankly a grind.