That statmeent indicates to me that you may want to research this topic a bit

This topic is not important enough to me for me to research.

I am just asking for people to give me examples of their claims. Is that really so unreasonable?

RoM has proven a rather successful F2P MMO

Well, I did say mainstream. There is no F2P game I have seen so far that I would consider mainstream. F2P is a fringe market.

Puzzle Pirates is cosnistently lauded for how it has handled RMT.

I'll take your word for it. But I've ever heard of it before.

EVE Online - PLEX allows players to buy gametime with ISK.

I already addressed that in post #234. Please see my response there. I dont consider EVE to be RMT for the reasons given in that post.

Ultima Online - Some of the things that a player can purchase are

* Advanced characters

Do you have to buy characters from other players or do you just buy them directly from the developer?

If it is the latter, then that is RMT. If it is the former, then that is not RMT, because someone still had to advance that character the hard way.

* 20% more storage space in houses and bank

BFD. That does not have a significant impact on game balance IMO. That is the equivalent to costume parts or healing potions.

*  A stone that allows players to transfer skills from one character to another
*  A self-repairing no-drop Holy Sword that does 40% extra damage over regular longswrds, and almost double damage to Undead creatures. It uses your best weapon skill as a modifier, so if you are an archer with 110 archery (very high) and 12 swordsmanship (very low), your skill when weilding this weapon will be calculated as 110.

Everquest 2 - speed boost potions and experience boost potions, especially the latter, do give players an edge over other players, allowing them to buy what others are 'working' for.

I might consider those RMT depending on the circumstances. Speed boost would be trivial IMO, but not XP boost. But if the XP boost is like 1%...that would be trivial.

The sword sounds a lot like the veteran reward weapons in CoH, which are trivial because most powers are much better. Since I am not familiar with UO, I dont have a frame of reference. Maybe those holy swords are also trivial for the same reason.

The skill transfer stone...same thing. You can buy and sell skills in Eve, but that does not unbalance the game, because they are untrained (level 0) and often have prerequisites. If you CAN trade trained skills via that stone, thats still not a big deal IMO because the person trading still has to have built the skill the hard way.

While I definitely dont like the way those items work, I would not call them RMT except for the XP potion/Longsword, and then it would depend on specifics.

RMT to me is being able to buy things from the developer that give me a significant advantage without having to work for it. Thats what I think of when someone says "RMT".

Me: Please post your source for their revenue.

Prevalent != everyone does it but enough of a significant population who do. I did post evidence in another thread.

Well, post it in this thread. I'm unwilling to take your word for it.

The 2007 estimate of total RMT market is ~US$1.8B. If you assume 20M players, that is roughly $90 PER PLAYER PER YEAR. Here is the link: Link to PDF File

I am unwilling to trust their estimate, since they do not have access to the actual data. They do not really even know how many MMO players buy the items. It's a guess.

Me: If I already believe it is bad now, why would I want to make it worse?

If it is so prevalent now, you cannot argue legalization will make it worse.

Of course I can. Will more or less people buy gold if it is legitimized?

The effect may not be having more people going into RMT (i can hardly imagine on average people spending MORE THAN $90 a year on it)

What choice will they have? They will have to buy the good weapons to be able to keep up.

So you have no problem with player to player RMT?

I do, but in this thread I am discussing developer to player RMT.

Player to Player RMT is bad, but at least the items being exchanged were actually earned.

What about gold farmers? They are "players" too.

If you believe that, why did you put "players" in quotes? Even you dont seem to believe they are real players, so that should answer your question. 

I’m not sure what it is your arguing anymore Brain-dead. You keep saying the context for this thread.

The OP states, “ will not play a game that sells item for cash because that just ruins the game for me. I buy games to play them not swipe my credit card to obtain items. The item isn't what I am ultimately after. Obtaining the item is what the game is about and you will never get the same satisfaction having the item unless you did so.”

There is nothing here about trivial RMT, game authorized or player to player, he just says he won’t do it. This tells me that this is fairly absolute, he won’t do any RMT. Fine.

You however state that CoH’s RMT (game authorized is ok) because it is insignificant.
“Those powers let you heal quicker, and have stamina recover faster.
By what, .0005%? Gimme a break.
That falls into the "trivial" RMT category I described earlier. It has no significant impact on balance. “

Played this weekend and the powers are between 10 and 15% as stated in their info box when right clicking on the power and there is more than just health and stamina.  This is significant at least to any stats class (5% margin of error, 95% level of confidence…). And once again the OP did not put limits on the type of RMT.

Then you further go on to say:
“station exchange allows players to sell stuff to other players. That kind of RMT (player to player) can have a big effect on the game too.
But players still have tom earn/find/craft the original items, right? If so, that isnt RMT in the context of this thread. New items are not being injected into the game via cash. They are just allowing player to sell items that they found/crafted/earned to other players.”

Implying that you find player to player RMT acceptable. Player to player or not, this is something I would actually use RMT for, to remove those parts of the grind that I don’t like (e.g. farming gold for mount, or ore for craft…). This is what most of the gold-sellars are about as well. Someone actually spent the hours in the game needed to farm that gold then sold it to the other other person for real life money. Note I should state I am completely against gold-sellers getting gold through exploits or hacks, but someone grinding for 5 hours for gold that I want I have no problem with.

Once again - context of the thread? Because the above sounds clearly like what the OP is against.

Then you state:
“Again, you say that every example you have seen so far has been negative, so my question still stands: What are these examples?
The illegal analogs currently used in mainstream MMOs now.”

Guess what most of the player to player interactions are illegal for the game (as in not game authorized) but  you stated above that this was ok- as long as someone first earned them in game -gold-selling). So are you for it or against it?

Then this statement here.
“If you are unwilling to accept the examples that I gave - EQ2's Marketplace, Puzzle Pirates doubloons servers, UO's purchasable items, etc - then we're at an impass here.
There is no impass. I dont accept your examples as examples of RMT in the context of this thread. I believe you are stretching (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt you are not being disingenuous).”

Once again just cause you don’t’ accept them doesn’t mean it isn’t RMT, it is RMT you are just placing restrictions on how you define it.  Which is fine but flies in the face of the other statements made above.  And once again, context of the thread.  The OP implied any, any context is your own opinion which is fine - but confusing now.

So I’ll ask
1. Are you for or against RMT at all?
2. If for it, what forms are ok, what is needed? Player to player - If so what forms?
3. For game authorized RMT what is acceptable, are weapons/armor acceptable? Gold acceptable, fluff? What percentage to they need to be to be considered unacceptable 5, 10, 15…
 

(red words are yours in response to the questions posed right before them)

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by Brain-dead

RoM has proven a rather successful F2P MMO

Well, I did say mainstream. There is no F2P game I have seen so far that I would consider mainstream. F2P is a fringe market.

 

Puzzle Pirates is cosnistently lauded for how it has handled RMT.

I'll take your word for it. But I've ever heard of it before.

 

EVE Online - PLEX allows players to buy gametime with ISK.

I already addressed that in post #234. Please see my response there. I dont consider EVE to be RMT for the reasons given in that post.

 

Ultima Online - Some of the things that a player can purchase are

* Advanced characters

Do you have to buy characters from other players or do you just buy them directly from the developer?

If it is the latter, then that is RMT. If it is the former, then that is not RMT, because someone still had to advance that character the hard way.

 

* 20% more storage space in houses and bank

BFD. That does not have a significant impact on game balance IMO. That is the equivalent to costume parts or healing potions.

 

*  A stone that allows players to transfer skills from one character to another
*  A self-repairing no-drop Holy Sword that does 40% extra damage over regular longswrds, and almost double damage to Undead creatures. It uses your best weapon skill as a modifier, so if you are an archer with 110 archery (very high) and 12 swordsmanship (very low), your skill when weilding this weapon will be calculated as 110.

Everquest 2 - speed boost potions and experience boost potions, especially the latter, do give players an edge over other players, allowing them to buy what others are 'working' for.

I might consider those RMT depending on the circumstances. Speed boost would be trivial IMO, but not XP boost. But if the XP boost is like 1%...that would be trivial.

The sword sounds a lot like the veteran reward weapons in CoH, which are trivial because most powers are much better. Since I am not familiar with UO, I dont have a frame of reference. Maybe those holy swords are also trivial for the same reason.

The skill transfer stone...same thing. You can buy and sell skills in Eve, but that does not unbalance the game, because they are untrained (level 0) and often have prerequisites. If you CAN trade trained skills via that stone, thats still not a big deal IMO because the person trading still has to have built the skill the hard way.

While I definitely dont like the way those items work, I would not call them RMT except for the XP potion/Longsword, and then it would depend on specifics.

RMT to me is being able to buy things from the developer that give me a significant advantage without having to work for it. Thats what I think of when someone says "RMT".

You state that F2P is a fringe market.

You state that PLEX is not RMT.

You dismiss each and every point with a different argument - never heard of it, not RMT according to your definition, "BFD", and you even go as far as to say that you MIGHT consider EQ2 marketplace to be RMT, depending on personal arbitrary conditionals.

Honestly, at this point you're just being unreasonable.

Cheers!

I’m not sure what it is your arguing anymore Brain-dead.

I just did. Here is what is just said:

RMT to me is being able to buy things from the developer that give me a significant advantage without having to work for it. Thats what I think of when someone says "RMT".

I dont know how much simpler I can state it.

There is nothing here about trivial RMT

People opposed to RMT are not talking about the Trivial crap IMO. They are talking about the stuff that breaks game balance.

You however state that CoH’s RMT (game authorized is ok) because it is insignificant.

Yes. I am stating my own opinion, and what I believe is the opinion of most people opposed to RMT.

And once again the OP did not put limits on the type of RMT.

Which all the pro-RMT people are exploiting, yeah, I saw that. Thats why I am being more explicit.

IMO, it is obvious that the OP (and all the anti_RMT people in general) was not talling about trivial crap like costume parts when he was complaining about RMT.

Implying that you find player to player RMT acceptable.

I dont. I just dont consider it RMT in the context of this thread. See my quote at the beginning of this post. 

Ok fine, so you consider RMT to be only things developers do that may give you a signficant advantage.

Advantage  has your own personal definition.  As some people find any RL cash for items a significant advantage and others don't.  Powers, potions, mounts... that give a benefit greater than 10% you don't consider an advantage.  Ok fine, as long as we know where you are coming from.

To me RMT is anything in game whether player or developer, authorized or not that someone pays cash for above and beyond their regular sub.  Items, gold, fluff... it's all RMT.  The question I ask myself is whether this is acceptable or not.

But what do you call it when players are selling gold and items for RL cash then. 

Venge Sunsoar

It seems to me that the most vociferous against RMT are always the unemployed or students who have countless hours they can play. They hate that others may have an advantage due to RL money yet it never worries them thaty they have an advantage because they don't actually do any real work.

As a working member of society I think I should be entitled to spend my money on the game and I like the option.

Of course if you don't like it you can play one of the non-RMT games where no-one ever admits that they buy stuff for money and yet strangely there is always a steady supply of gold sellers.

RMT is inevitable.

I started a poll here if anyone is interested. It's a lot more explicit on exactly what people mean by "RMT".

http://www.curse.com/articles/runes-of-magic-en-news/475856.aspx

Rune of Magic hit 1M register users. If that is fringe, almost everything but WOW is fringe.

So you have no problem with player to player RMT?

I do, but in this thread I am discussing developer to player RMT.

Player to Player RMT is bad, but at least the items being exchanged were actually earned.

Now that is silly. I *am* discussing player to player RMT, legal *and* illegal, on this thread. If you do not like it, you do not have to reply.

RMT between players (and farmers) is as relevant to the player community as developer -> player RMT and certainly there are companies supporting (legitimizing) player-to-player RMT (station exchange).

Originally posted by Scot

A random decision is fairer than one made by who can pay the most. That’s a pretty universal principle, throwing a dice to win is fairer than who has the biggest wallet.

Orthedos mentions CoX a game where it would be hard to implement RMT’s. My prediction, you will not get many, if any MMO’s made like that again, the financers and marketing department simply won’t let them. That’s even if they don’t intend to launch with RMT’s, it will be a case of making sure the cash cow door is left open.

Please try to get this idea: when I use a " :) or ^^ " I am not being serious, I think what I said was rather obviously a joke even without a special symbol to show it was.

You cannot be referring to me as a troll as this is only my third post in this thread?

Ok if you are not trolling, you are not.  I did not read that :) careful enuf.

Your prediction is CoX type of game is not coming.  I dunno, I dun like to predict, unless it is part of my paid job.  On the other hand, Champion Online is coming, I hope it is just as much fun.

Is random dice-roll based decision fair? I do not think so.  In a company's board room, votes and elections are not based on randomness, but in terms of share of ownership.  What you think is fair, is unfair to someone else.  So fairness as a rule will never have universal appeal.  I for one will not agree to any "fairness" that does not give me every sword of uberness :0 :P :) ... read the signs?

I think I just reiterate my stand once more, "So long as the RMT comes from the legal developer, and the rules of RMT are clearly stated, I see nothing wrong with it.  Whether I play that game at all depends on quality of gameplay, and RMT is not the only factor affecting gameplay".

Take an example.  EQ2, and many SoE games has anxilliary services that charges you more, like a linke to web or some bells and whistles.  I forgot that, cos I left SoE forever a long time ago.  Despite the little charges, I found the game to be very playable back then.  Darkfall, has no RMT, frankly I do not believe there are any gold sellers at all.  However the game is so horrible, I will never play it, not even if somone put a gun on my forehead.

So I don't bother about RMT or not, I pick a game on ground of gameplay.  Likewise I pick a wife on ground of personal character, whether she wears blue or green dress I hardly care.  IF RMT damages gameplay, the game is rejected on ground of gameplay, to which RMT contributes.  If RMT does not ruin gameplay, or RMT does not exist, but other factors ruin gameplay, the game is still rejected, and still on ground of gameplay quality.  If RMT does not affect my portion of gameplay, but affect others (say the PVPers), they suffer, not me, I still play my own part of the game.  PERIOD.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

So you have no problem with player to player RMT?

I do, but in this thread I am discussing developer to player RMT.

Player to Player RMT is bad, but at least the items being exchanged were actually earned.

Now that is silly. I *am* discussing player to player RMT, legal *and* illegal, on this thread. If you do not like it, you do not have to reply.

RMT between players (and farmers) is as relevant to the player community as developer -> player RMT and certainly there are companies supporting (legitimizing) player-to-player RMT (station exchange).

Then I have already stated my stand.

I tolerate RMT from developer, I despise RMT from gold sellers.  RMT from other players?  How can u tell the difference between a gold seller and "another" player, unless you know him in person?

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Scot

A random decision is fairer than one made by who can pay the most. That’s a pretty universal principle, throwing a dice to win is fairer than who has the biggest wallet.

Orthedos mentions CoX a game where it would be hard to implement RMT’s. My prediction, you will not get many, if any MMO’s made like that again, the financers and marketing department simply won’t let them. That’s even if they don’t intend to launch with RMT’s, it will be a case of making sure the cash cow door is left open.

Please try to get this idea: when I use a " :) or ^^ " I am not being serious, I think what I said was rather obviously a joke even without a special symbol to show it was.

You cannot be referring to me as a troll as this is only my third post in this thread?

 

Ok if you are not trolling, you are not.  I did not read that :) careful enuf.

Your prediction is CoX type of game is not coming.  I dunno, I dun like to predict, unless it is part of my paid job.  On the other hand, Champion Online is coming, I hope it is just as much fun.

Is random dice-roll based decision fair? I do not think so.  In a company's board room, votes and elections are not based on randomness, but in terms of share of ownership.  What you think is fair, is unfair to someone else.  So fairness as a rule will never have universal appeal.  I for one will not agree to any "fairness" that does not give me every sword of uberness :0 :P :) ... read the signs?

I think I just reiterate my stand once more, "So long as the RMT comes from the legal developer, and the rules of RMT are clearly stated, I see nothing wrong with it.  Whether I play that game at all depends on quality of gameplay, and RMT is not the only factor affecting gameplay".

Take an example.  EQ2, and many SoE games has anxilliary services that charges you more, like a linke to web or some bells and whistles.  I forgot that, cos I left SoE forever a long time ago.  Despite the little charges, I found the game to be very playable back then.  Darkfall, has no RMT, frankly I do not believe there are any gold sellers at all.  However the game is so horrible, I will never play it, not even if somone put a gun on my forehead.

So I don't bother about RMT or not, I pick a game on ground of gameplay.  Likewise I pick a wife on ground of personal character, whether she wears blue or green dress I hardly care.  IF RMT damages gameplay, the game is rejected on ground of gameplay, to which RMT contributes.  If RMT does not ruin gameplay, or RMT does not exist, but other factors ruin gameplay, the game is still rejected, and still on ground of gameplay quality.  If RMT does not affect my portion of gameplay, but affect others (say the PVPers), they suffer, not me, I still play my own part of the game.  PERIOD.

Thank you Orthedos, you summed up my point of view perfectly.
 

It's about the gameplay.  If a game is fun to me I'll play it, whether or not it has RMT or not.  If RMT affects gameplay negatively enough, I'll leave.  But the RMT is not the deciding factor, the gameplay is.

And with that I don't think I can contribute anymore, I've said all I can say.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

It seems to me that the most vociferous against RMT are always the unemployed or students who have countless hours they can play. They hate that others may have an advantage due to RL money yet it never worries them thaty they have an advantage because they don't actually do any real work.

As a working member of society I think I should be entitled to spend my money on the game and I like the option.

Of course if you don't like it you can play one of the non-RMT games where no-one ever admits that they buy stuff for money and yet strangely there is always a steady supply of gold sellers.

RMT is inevitable.

Thanks for stereotyping, makes one not take you seriously. I work as well and I do not like RMT games. I have already explained myself throughout this post so not going to go into my reason again. Go ahead and spend your money on virtual items, doesn't bother me. If all games do go to RMT one day, there will be one less MMO gamer playing.

1st of all, I don't really like RMT.

Secondly, the best way to handle it is a 2 way approach :

1. Allow limited RMT like in EVE Online :

Here you can trade subscription time payed with RL cash for ingame curreny. This allows for the Veterans to buy subscription time with ingame currency and for newbies to get a good amount of isk. Once the newbie becomes the veteran, he can in his turn buy subscription time from newbies and it comes full circle.

You can also trade characters for ISK, so in effect you can buy a character with RL cash. I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Allowing limited RMT lowers the illegal demand and makes illegal RMT unnecessary, only the greedy will want to risk illegal RMT.

2. Fight illegal RMT hard like in WoW :

This is just as important, and it is a constant battle. The company should include regular players as much as possible in this battle, and give them tools. Simple things, like easy and fast ways to report illegal activity, for example right click a person in chat and choose report for illegal ISK selling, which also automatically ignores this person, so it is a win win situation for both the company and the player.

Perma ban players and sellers when caught, players can get a 1 time warning and will be put under close surveillance, sellers are banned from 1st offence.

Go public with batches of banned accounts, like Blizzard does. It will scare potential buyers away.

Fix exploits, ban exploiters

And I am sure the companies can think up some more measures..

I think EVE Online laks a bit in the fighting department, while WoW laks in the Legal RMT, that is why both games still have problems with it, obviously you can never get completely rid of illegal RMT and exploiters, but you can reduce it to a minimum.

Lastly RMT with the company itself is a big no for me, I don't want item malls and things like that in my mmo, but that's a personal choice, and I am sure alot of people think different.

I think you 5-6 people that are so PRO RMT should sign up for Entropida universe today, spend a few thousand dollars then come back to us here and tell us what you think.....

Seriously RMT is a bad thing, its not good in anny game as real money transactions gives people an edge that do have more money IRL. ANd its also feeds the smart and productive people that can make a living off the stupid people who like to spend real money for virtual gods.

I play EvE for free I have done this for years, becuase people want to sell game time cards and get ISK. All the no lifers that you RMT suporters seam to hate, and in some twisted way you think you will beat by legalicing RMT on a grander scale are all playing for free to.

So what you will be doing is letting the leachers that you call them have MMORPG as thiere new JOBB. If this is what you want continue with your campaign, if not stop this foolish argument right away.

If we want people to make a living playing games then RMT is the way to go. IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down.

But iv said this before and some of you just keep trolling it up that you only care about how fun the game is and what you get out of it. BULLSHIT! you think you will beat the no lifers if RMT is standard in all MMORPGs, Im sorry but you will just be paying thier monthly paychek, that you cant see this is I will never understand.

Originally posted by PinkCat

I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it.  Well I prefer it as if I can afford to have items that look different becuase I can chuck couch change away online then it sucks to be you I guess. 

PS My fridge is full.

haha ONe Born every minute, you sir are a perfec t example of that statment..

Now go here http://www.entropiauniverse.com/entropiauniverse/ 

ps be sure to bring the big Credit card because you need about 5000$ to get you started....

Originally posted by PinkCat

I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it. 

That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I think you 5-6 people that are so PRO RMT should sign up for Entropida universe today, spend a few thousand dollars then come back to us here and tell us what you think.....

Seriously RMT is a bad thing, its not good in anny game as real money transactions gives people an edge that do have more money IRL. ANd its also feeds the smart and productive people that can make a living off the stupid people who like to spend real money for virtual gods.

I play EvE for free I have done this for years, becuase people want to sell game time cards and get ISK. All the no lifers that you RMT suporters seam to hate, and in some twisted way you think you will beat by legalicing RMT on a grander scale are all playing for free to.

So what you will be doing is letting the leachers that you call them have MMORPG as thiere new JOBB. If this is what you want continue with your campaign, if not stop this foolish argument right away.

If we want people to make a living playing games then RMT is the way to go. IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down.

But iv said this before and some of you just keep trolling it up that you only care about how fun the game is and what you get out of it. BULLSHIT! you think you will beat the no lifers if RMT is standard in all MMORPGs, Im sorry but you will just be paying thier monthly paychek, that you cant see this is I will never understand.

Yes, how dare we "only care about how fun the game is" and what we get out of it.   What an absolutely ridiculous concept!  Games aren't here for us to have fun, they're supposed to be... hmmmm... I guess I don't know what games are for. 

"RMT" is referenced in this thread over 1200 times yet I still don't know what it stands for lol.