Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by JGMIII

Two things I hate in MMOs Levels and Gated content.

This dude is spot on.

Make everything useful and fun.

The journey is the game.

This is why I play Open ended games.

 

 

 

 

To add to your list...they should never remove content and items...they need to add.  It should be a PERSISTENT WORLD.

 

I agree that a company shouldn't make content obsolete with updates and expansions, however, a persistent world? MMOs are persistent worlds, because the world continues to exist whether you're online or not. You never can save your character, can never reload the game, and appear in the gameworld where you last was when logging. That by any MMO company definition is a persistent world. But I know what you mean, you want a world that provides an alternate life, but through virtual means. While I used to want the same thing, and part of me does, it just isn't feasible. For one, games like that require way too much time and effort to be called a game. A better name for them would be "an alternate life," because you would need to spend your real life playing the game to obtain any real measure of success in any acceptable amount of time. A game that requires a person to forsake their real life to succeed in a game life only draws and promotes unhealthy individuals. Fortunately for our world, there are less of those people wanting to play games than there are responsible people who would like to play a game, but not at the expense of their real life, so it's not profitable catering to the no-lifers; instead, companies need to cater to people who have lives, thus a story driven game online, where you can solo or group is the common sense approach and the most profitable.

Simply being there when I log on is NOT a persistent world.  By persistent world I mean not removing that of which was earned within the game...removing items or accomplishments or replacing said items or making items completely worthless.  The game world must remain persistent.  Change is fine...but do it by adding to the world not taking away. 

Originally posted by reanor

Most people who play LOTRO would wholeheartedly agree that its one of the very few games that you actually enjoy the journey to the end-game, and then the end-game itself. I gotta read the blog then I'll have more thoughts :). But LOTRO is probably the best developed game where you can enjoy the journey in all of its glory.

I have mixed feelings on this one. I could never get past level 20, because I found combat to be very bland as are the classes. Now I know many people share my opinion on this, but it's still just an opinion. So for me, while LoTRO had an awesome environement and well written quests, it just wasn't fun doing them due to the boringness of the classes and combat. It just didn't connect for me. Add to that the fact that people rush throught he book quests, because they've done them a hundred times ruins it. People would tell you to join a guild, but the fact about that is not even guilds can promise you that they will be available whenever you reach a book quest. I love how groups in DAoC were created from just a bunch of strangers online, not usually a group of guildies and I believe that's how it should be, because there are far more people available to play with on the server level, rather than the guild level.

I actually enjoy the journey in WOW, because I've played WC 3 and understand the lore. So when I read quests and get into the story lines that may reference things that a person knowing the lore would appreciate, I get into it. It's sad how the best story lines, which actually progress the meaningful storylines from the warcraft series exist in raid environments, because a person is at the mercy of other people to experience that part of the story, and MMO players are just so messed up now, that they'll only invite people who are the class, spec, and gear level they think would optimize their raid ability. So instead of inviting random people, making do and learning how to work with what you have, you have people scientifically building groups that will plow through raids.

Like everyone else, I agree 100% with Dana.

I've played EQ, SWG, DAoC, CoH/CoV, DDO.. I am sure I am forgetting a couple, but most important is my current game of Lord of the Rings Online.

In LOTRO, your character has an epic quest that parallels and intersects with the Fellowship's journey. These quests give you awesome items, too. There are a lot of things you can't do if you haven't progressed  your epic quests appropriately. They have the right idea to go with the ideal MMO we all want.

Imagine playing an MMO that has no experience system. I think that's pretty much the only way to eliminate the level issue. As long as there are numbers, people will strive to reach the max ASAP. I personally don't know how I would handle such a game. Every MMO I've played over the past 13 years had a leveling and experience system. It wouldn't *feel* like it's supposed to.

Just because it's new and out of your comfort zone doesn't mean it will suck, however. I think it's 100% possible to develop an MMO with no levels and story-based progression along with the niceties like crafting and sparring. Maybe it could be made so there isn't even an option to attack someone who hasn't gotten as far as you to minimize disgruntled noobs.

There's definitely a market for this sort of MMO. I wonder if anyone will take a gamble.

I largely agree with the author.  As has already been mentioned, the game the author is describing is Guild Wars.  You stop levelling at 20 and instead, you push forward the story line to get to new areas of the world.  I've had more fun playing Guild Wars than any other game.

Having said that, there is something I would like even better, which would be for the "storyline" to be about the decisions I make, instead of a railroad through the game-designer's story.  I loved Guild Wars, but I never could bring myself to care much about the fate of Prince Rurik or whether Nightfall would come.

The term "end game" has been missused, abused and overrated. Developers need to provide more game content along the way to the end.

Post is spot on, too bad devlopers lack the intestinal fortitude to turn it's Back on teh Jeff Kaplan school of design.

Fun's not just an ill-defined term, but an overused one. There are countless activities that people spend their leisure time pursuing, but which don't really fit the "fun" category; learning a language, decorating, making clothes, painting watercolors, fishing, training for a marathon, building a model railway, gardening, learning to juggle... a milion human activities that, while you are doing them can seem like anything but "fun", yet you choose to do them all the same.

MMOs are more akin to this kind of activity than to pure "fun" experiences like going to  a theme park or a blockbuster movie. You do things that aren't intrinsically "fun" and after completing them you have either a sense of achievement or a visible outcome or, best of all, both. In MMOs, the visible outcome is your character, which is a never-ending work-in-progress. Like a project you know you'll never quite complete, your character provides endless opportunity for tinkering and modifying. You secretly hope it will never be "ready".

At least, that's how I see MMOs. The OP seems more interested in the activity; the "game". I spend my time in MMOs for many reasons, but the primary one is the building of the character. I'm not really all that bothered with what I do with the character; building it is an end in itself.

As for storylines, that would be close to last in a list of things I come to MMOs for. Storylines are actively unwelcome, and the idea of being required to follow one in order to progress would have me progressing away from that MMO entirely. Stories are far beter told in a number of other media, where the reader or viewer isn't asked to perform tasks before being thrown each small gobbet of plot.

 Bravo! This is a very inspiring post!

Originally posted by Bhagpuss

Fun's not just an ill-defined term, but an overused one. There are countless activities that people spend their leisure time pursuing, but which don't really fit the "fun" category; learning a language, decorating, making clothes, painting watercolors, fishing, training for a marathon, building a model railway, gardening, learning to juggle... a milion human activities that, while you are doing them can seem like anything but "fun", yet you choose to do them all the same.

MMOs are more akin to this kind of activity than to pure "fun" experiences like going to  a theme park or a blockbuster movie. You do things that aren't intrinsically "fun" and after completing them you have either a sense of achievement or a visible outcome or, best of all, both. In MMOs, the visible outcome is your character, which is a never-ending work-in-progress. Like a project you know you'll never quite complete, your character provides endless opportunity for tinkering and modifying. You secretly hope it will never be "ready".

At least, that's how I see MMOs. The OP seems more interested in the activity; the "game". I spend my time in MMOs for many reasons, but the primary one is the building of the character. I'm not really all that bothered with what I do with the character; building it is an end in itself.

As for storylines, that would be close to last in a list of things I come to MMOs for. Storylines are actively unwelcome, and the idea of being required to follow one in order to progress would have me progressing away from that MMO entirely. Stories are far beter told in a number of other media, where the reader or viewer isn't asked to perform tasks before being thrown each small gobbet of plot.

To each his own but countless hours of level/gear grinding is not my idea of entertainment.  For me a good MMO should be more of an adventure leaving me with memories of things seen and done. However a well designed MMO can provide something for everyone. WoW comes close to this. Yes for all the harsh comments it recieves the game world has a lot going for ir.

While the basic idea is a nice one, its about as likely as world peace. Sure, it d be nice to have and everyone would be better off in theory, but its not going to happen due to human nature kicking in.

In MMOs, that human nature is the urge to get to the top of any given heap, or more importantly, the need for progress. No matter how you slice it, as long as you can outlevel, outplay, outskill or outwhatever content, it ll be done, and if you are dealing with the mainstream audience, it ll be done really quick and efficiently after a while.

The developers are, by and large, just accommodating this behaviour, and trying to channel it into something they can use to make a game work. For everyone I know that likes Guild Wars for the fact that, esp. in Factions and Nightfall, the levelling stops after 1/3 of the game, and the story goes on, I know at least one person who dislikes exactly that fact, stating that they dont feel like their character is advancing much, and that storyline is just an excuse for giving out xp.

The journey needs to be a minimum of fun, yeah. But the mainstream audience, which is what you have to market for most of the time, does not feel happy if they see people ahead of them, and will strive to speed up the journey anyway.

Even the most laid back and oldschool communities, like in Vanguard, quickly found and emphasized quest hubs that were crap, but gave lots of exp in a short amount of time.

You cannot design counter the drive of the players. You can nudge here and there, try to teach different things, but the overwhelming influence is the need to achieve, to be fast, efficient, get to the goal. Its ingrained in our society, and a game will pay dearly if it tries to get away from that in the current market.

Originally posted by MudHekket

Having said that, there is something I would like even better, which would be for the "storyline" to be about the decisions I make, instead of a railroad through the game-designer's story.  I loved Guild Wars, but I never could bring myself to care much about the fate of Prince Rurik or whether Nightfall would come.

Well, it seems like Bioware is working on this. And I agree, problem is in GW you can never really affect the story.

And I actually laughted when Rurik bought the farm, he was such a moron...

I agree that part of this is the fault of the players. I played EQ1 like a level maniac, but when i realized it would take a year to hit 50 (at the rate i played), i started again with no intention to even hit 40. It was much more fun the second time around because i wasn't playing with a levels in mind.

I've learned my lesson, i get my fun at the lower levels, ignore the upper levels. A fireball is a fireball whether its 100 damage or 2. Play while its fun, then get out. No grinding for me.

But the problem for game developers, what is to keep me playing. If its  the same 20 missions no matter what class/race i play, then we have a problem. They have to give you 30 ways through the lower levels that are different enough. Not completely different, but different enough to make it interesting. The game has to be REPLAYABLE. That will keep the money coming in while keeping it fun. Not pushing the max level to 70 or 80.

A good example is EQ. EQ at least had 10 different races and 5 different classes that all played different. Each race played different as did the class. That was 50 ways to start off. And they didn't all lead to the same main story line throughout. You weren't put on rails, it was more like a sandbox.

Excellent work and spot on!

Enjoy the journey!!  WHich is how I enjoy LOTRO, I can relate to the world, I don't worry about levels, I go for silly titles.

I quit WoW at lvl 13, cause leveling is the pits

Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".

One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.

I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.

I wish the OP came up with some ideas on how to make the gaming experience fun instead of a speed dash to end level.I offered my ideas awhile ago,one was utilizing the NPC's a LOT more including voice overs and NPC's joining in battles or traveling alongside players.NPC's are suppose to be the main part of the world,and we have yet to see any developer utilize them to it's fullest extent.I have seen small bits and pieces but not much at all.

We could also have more puzzles and uique ideas involved in boss killing rather than just warping through a portal or gaining access.You could have different locks and puzzles and NPC's and mobs every day to make the experience different.This is something else we have yet to see from ANY game....have multiple spawns for the same nodes ,including NPC's or mobs.How about the FFXI ideas like Besieged or Campaign battles?how about a quest or idea like FFXI where you start naked and have to work your way through the zone to gain back your weapons and armour.Perhaps a knockout system ,where by 8 players enter a zone and only one can enter the final battle to fight the boss,so it brings into play the PVP aspect that so many love.You could also do it with groups of 6 or 5 or 4.So again this offers more than just warping to a zone and fight the boss utilizing said methods attained form the internet.That gets old and boring as does leveling.

Originally posted by pur3.5ync

Easiest way is making a single player RPG then adding the multiplayer for people to cooperate or do other activities together (which is almost basically a RPG with co-op). (Guildwars except quest progression is necessary?)

Unfortunantly, that would not work. In a single player RPG the player is the sole focus of the game. Everything revolves around him and he is a walking god among men. He can feel powerful because nothing and no one can challenge him.

Now, add in 5000 other players. Each one of them is going to expect that feeling of power, and they are going to measure it as compared to the other players. Now you have balance issues, overpowered abilities, underpowered abilities. Worse, each players view of where their characters abilities are in relation to everyone elses characters is going to be skewed in their own favor.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".

One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.

I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.

I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.

No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.

Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.

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Originally posted by Nightbringe1

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Originally posted by Wizardry

Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".
One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.
I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.

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I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.
No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.
Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.

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I'm also playing some alts in EQ2 currently with xp off for the same reasons (even thinking about re-rolling my old main for the same reasons). The article is good and I agree completely. I've personally always hated the whole level/class based model that the vast majority of MMO's slavishly follow. I've always hated the whole concept of holy "end-game" (I usually get bored with a game before I get to it anyway). I've never been at all a fan of PvP, but I must say the skill based open sand-box world that Mortal online is at least talking about (no idea if they'll actually pull it off) does sound appealing.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Wizardry

Well for once i have to say a writer or anyone for that matter actually sees the genre as i do.The mad dash to end game/levels and the perception that means you are a better player is ridiculous,but that is what the players have become,as stated..."Broken players".

One thing i am not so sure on is the quality quests and players crying about them.I have yet to see these quality quests in most games and i have not seen much in the way of complaining about quality quests. I know for a fact i would not complain about quality quests.For myself any game that utilizes a lot of effort into a massive crafting/questing game would be on my good list,but it has to be done well>>quality >quantity.

I have seen a decent quest design done in EQ2 and EQ using the idea of a quest line.WHat i liked about doing EQ2 was killing mobs,you could get a quest or spawn a boss and get decent rewards,i liked that idea alot.

 

I am playing EQ2 these days, on a level locked Mystic. As I progress through each area, I turn off my xp until I have done the majority of the quests and fully explored all the zones.

No race to end game, no outleveling content before I am done with it, no cares if anyone else happens to be higher level then me.

Now, if only more people would slow down and enjoy the journey.

You know, I can't stand SOE much, but I have to hand it to them for creating such a large world, with so many classes, and more quests than WoW could hope to have. It's one reason I've thought of playing EQ2. I've only ever made it to around lvl 20ish and I just couldn't get into the game. I play WoW right now, and what has me sucked into the game is the lore and story behind it. I love the story of the orcs against humans, because neither are completely innocent or at fault for what went on. I love the story of the elves, their eternal life being lost, of the scourge, the former liche king, and Arthas. I love the lore behind the Paladins and their coronation, mages, and druids with Emerald Dream. It's all such a captivating tale with a lot of sorrow when the beautiful is destroyed, the brave being forsaken, and hero's becoming villians through tough, yet unavoidable choices. I just don't get that lore or story with EQ2.

I would love to find a game that didn't put players 'on rails' as another poster stated.  The linear, cookie-cutter, level based MMORPG = been there/done that for 90% of the people who read these boards.

Another thing wrong with level based MMORPG's:

Ever started a game 3-4 weeks after your friends did?  And now they are way, way over the n00bie stages of the game.  You have to bust your arse to catch up to them... meanwhile, you aren't getting to play the game 'with' your friends, you're playing to try to catch up so that you can play with your friends.

So, yeah, I love the topic and it was an excellent article.  As others have said... 'spot on'.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Unfortunantly, that would not work. In a single player RPG the player is the sole focus of the game. Everything revolves around him and he is a walking god among men. He can feel powerful because nothing and no one can challenge him.

Now, add in 5000 other players. Each one of them is going to expect that feeling of power, and they are going to measure it as compared to the other players. Now you have balance issues, overpowered abilities, underpowered abilities. Worse, each players view of where their characters abilities are in relation to everyone elses characters is going to be skewed in their own favor.

I don't think thats so.  Take oblivion, ignoring the main quest, 100 people could be wandering around the world and it would be just fine.  Its not a question of power, or being a walking god.  The world would support the players just fine.

OTOH, your balance issues are spot on.  If theivery doesn't work well in a single player game, you can live with it.  But in a multiplayer game, these imbalances stand out more.  Especially when the game is so combat based.