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5/29/09 9:09:06 PM#21
Originally posted by Koolaider
Why would I even accept that as an answer? How hard is it to explain the simple differences between the two if they're so profoundly different?
whether you accept it or not makes me no difference...it has been answered on this very board many times. Search for it or don't. Look for a post by archangel
So are you telling me that you're not quite sure what the differences are? If you're going to counterpoint a post, at least do the poster a favor and let them know why they're wrong instead of just shouting out points from a thread tlong passed. The bottom line is, a cash grab is a cash grab, no matter how you look at it.
you can find the debate on that issue here mate. the question on rmt has been discussed on several threads very recently that is why it may have come as a frustration reading it again. if you browse to page 2 on these forums you will find some other RMT threads as well. |
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Originally posted by Troneas
Why would I even accept that as an answer? How hard is it to explain the simple differences between the two if they're so profoundly different?
whether you accept it or not makes me no difference...it has been answered on this very board many times. Search for it or don't. Look for a post by archangel
So are you telling me that you're not quite sure what the differences are? If you're going to counterpoint a post, at least do the poster a favor and let them know why they're wrong instead of just shouting out points from a thread tlong passed. The bottom line is, a cash grab is a cash grab, no matter how you look at it.
you can find the debate on that issue here mate. the question on rmt has been discussed on several threads very recently that is why it may have come as a frustration reading it again. if you browse to page 2 on these forums you will find some other RMT threads as well.
THanks for the help Tron...I didn't want to go dredging for it and didnt' feel like rehashing it for the koolaid drinker. -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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5/31/09 12:14:40 AM#23
Originally posted by Valeran
whether you accept it or not makes me no difference...it has been answered on this very board many times. Search for it or don't. Look for a post by archangel
So are you telling me that you're not quite sure what the differences are? If you're going to counterpoint a post, at least do the poster a favor and let them know why they're wrong instead of just shouting out points from a thread tlong passed. The bottom line is, a cash grab is a cash grab, no matter how you look at it.
you can find the debate on that issue here mate. the question on rmt has been discussed on several threads very recently that is why it may have come as a frustration reading it again. if you browse to page 2 on these forums you will find some other RMT threads as well.
THanks for the help Tron...I didn't want to go dredging for it and didnt' feel like rehashing it for the koolaid drinker. WoW's TCG: you purchase and own actual (as in real life) trading cards. SWG's TCG: you purchase virtual playing cards that you don't own. WoW's TCG: the cards with loot have a function in the Trading Card Game itself. They're useful in the TCG. You buy trading cards and you get trading cards. SWG's TCG: the loot cards have no function in the TCG whatsoever. They are solely loot items for the SWG MMO. People are not buying trading cards and simply receiving trading cards. They are buying packs of virtual trading cards hoping that one may include an SWG loot item, something that has no function in the TCG whatsoever. WoW's TCG: it's possible to verify the odds of winning a certain loot item because they are printed on actual cards that can be counted. SWG's TCG: it's not possible to independently verify the odds of winning a certain loot item because they are not printed on actual cards that someone could count. WoW's TCG: currently includes no loot items that give combat advantages in the WoW MMO. SWG's TCG: currently offers a number of loot items that give combat advantages in the SWG MMO. WoW's TCG tournaments: are legal in Nevada because although they offer prizes in what amounts to a game of chance (random draw of the cards), they do not charge a real cash entry fee. SWG's TCG tournaments: some are illegal in Nevada because they offer prizes in what amounts to a game of chance (random draw of the cards), and they DO charge a real cash entry fee. They are also banned in a number of other states, where I have seen Blizzard running their TCG tournament. They appear to me to be similar in name only. In all of these respects they seem to differ significantly. Oh also, because you own actual cards in the WoW TCG, you do not need to pay a fee to access them on Blizzard's severs. In the SWG TCG, you must pay a fee to continually access your virtual cards. If I've missed or misrepresented anything, it's not intentional. I believe this is accurate. Let me know if I missed something. Oops. I erred in being critical of the mounts available in WoW via the TCG. They take pains to prevent these from interfering with gameplay. Details can be found here: http://thottbot.com/?i=53987 and here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Reins_of_the_Swift_Spectral_Tiger.
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5/31/09 12:39:42 AM#24
A bit of a seperate thought here, so I hope y'all don't mind me putting it in it's own post: TCG isn't the problem. It's the way the TCG is implemented I think that bugs people. All TCG's are not alike in the MMO world. Some seem to contain hidden fees and manipulative dynamics. Others don't. Some have real cards that you own. Others don't. Big differences, with implications for players regarding how much they are likely to spend, and what they are likely to get for their money. It's kind of like RMT. All RMT in games is not the same. It's hard to compare RMT in SWG, for example, with RMT in other games. In SWG you pay Real Money for a chance to get a loot item. In other games, you pay for a specific item; there's no chance involved. You want to buy an item, you buy it for a small fee and get exactly what you paid for. In SWG the items you may get are not yours. If SOE decides to delete them the day after you buy (win) them, you get no refund. In other games (one I'm beta testing atm) you lease an RMT item for a specified period of time. If that item is deleted or devalued before that time expires you are entitled to a pro-rated refund. Huge difference there, and to me a very important one. It's also like comparing TCG tournaments. Is there a problem with tournaments in and of themselves? No, I don't think so. However, when you charge people a cash entry fee for a random chance at prizes, certain consumer protection legislation kicks in. So whether or not you charge a real cash entry fee and offer random prizes becomes a big issue. Also, what about RMT items themselves? Do they give your character advantages over others or are they merely cosmetic? People seem more concerned about performance enhancing RMT items. Some games have these (e.g. SWG); others do not. So, in many cases comparing TCGs or RMT from one game to the next can be a lot like comparing apples and oranges. It's important to look at how TCGs and RMT are implemented. There are many different approaches, and I think some are much more user friendly than others. |
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5/31/09 1:53:55 AM#25
Not only the way its implemented by when its implemented. If a game is advertised to contain a certain business model prior to release then people can either agree or disagree, buy or not buy. adding content, loot or whatever which requires separate payment in an existing and established MMO I find it unethical. |
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5/31/09 3:43:50 AM#26
The problem is with TCG...
SOE just don't care about the effect on the game world these things have. |
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5/31/09 7:45:13 PM#27
Originally posted by Troneas
I also dislike the whole idea of changing business models in a live game. It used to be enough to just pay a subscription and get access to all the new vehicles, new structures, buffs etc.. Now people pay the same subscription fee but the only way certain things are added into the game is via RMT. Also, I know of people who have been paying their subscription faithfully with the hope of rebuilding their crafting businesses. Remember, just before the RMT/TCG/random loot model was introduced, crafters were told that they would once again be relevant to the game. They had some long awaited revamps, but now don't have anything to do with some of the latest (and best) vehicles or structures. Changing the rules (repeatedly) and now changing the business model is, in my view, an excellent way to undermine your own player retention. I think SOE should look at games that are able to retain their populations. I think those games are doing a number of things right with regard to customer satisfaction. Two things they seem to avoid are massive rule rewrites and massive shifts to the business model after the game goes live. |
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5/31/09 8:41:36 PM#28
As far as SWG"s TCG goes. People are still playing SWG, and some even spending money on the TCG. So, appearently, thats what the current SWG playerbase wants. If SOE is willing to provide that to them, you can't really blame SOE too much. Its a good thing that people are made aware of how this card game differs from the norm before they spend money on it. Its also a good thing that the current SWG playerbase understands how it works if they dont, so they can decide for themselves if they want to support the tcg and swg. That there may be future harm done to the gaming industry from outside sources much worse than gold farmers by partaking in SOE's forms of RMT, or acting oblivious to the negatives and potential negatives. We have so much money we want to give you SOE...This RMT revenue is a drop of water from an ocean of money. If you weirdos would just make another awesome game, done right. You wouldnt need your scams you stole from farmers. We would throw are money at you!! People should be willing to pay 50 a month for an MMO with the Sony brand on it. Instead you're taking kids allowances. Whatever, but is this why you got into the business? This your dream? MMO dev.. Just another job no one wants. Coming up with clever ways to charge cheaters for cheating. Or even better, design a whole game based on cheating, and profitting from it. Dirty money leaves stains. I guess get it while the gettin's good huh? ( Not like anyone form soe is gonna read this..dunno why its directed at them) |
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5/31/09 9:17:41 PM#29
Originally posted by Koolaider
Ok, so people buy trading card packs with hopes of getting in game loot and maybe playing the card game for both Warcraft and SWG. What's the difference? Is it because there's a third party making WoW's cards and Blizzard taking a cut out of each purchace? I know there's going to be some logic behind these threads, but I really find it hard to see anything but covert nerd rage.
There have been some good examples all ready, but I wanted to add a few that I feel are important.
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5/31/09 9:33:34 PM#30
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I also dislike the whole idea of changing business models in a live game. It used to be enough to just pay a subscription and get access to all the new vehicles, new structures, buffs etc.. Now people pay the same subscription fee but the only way certain things are added into the game is via RMT. Also, I know of people who have been paying their subscription faithfully with the hope of rebuilding their crafting businesses. Remember, just before the RMT/TCG/random loot model was introduced, crafters were told that they would once again be relevant to the game. They had some long awaited revamps, but now don't have anything to do with some of the latest (and best) vehicles or structures. Changing the rules (repeatedly) and now changing the business model is, in my view, an excellent way to undermine your own player retention. I think SOE should look at games that are able to retain their populations. I think those games are doing a number of things right with regard to customer satisfaction. Two things they seem to avoid are massive rule rewrites and massive shifts to the business model after the game goes live. but see this is soe's attempt to compete with wow. cant generate/retain large sub numbers? get the few who play to pay more. in a few years when the average price to play (and be competitive in ) a mmo doubles blame soe. other companies will tout the "premium services" as easier than competing toe-to-toe with blizzards sub numbers.
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6/01/09 1:10:21 AM#31
forums.station.sony.com/strategygames/posts/list.m The title for this TCG expansion, "Agents of Deception" seems oh-so-fitting for this game. "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918) |
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6/01/09 1:24:54 AM#32
Don't bother quoting Koolaid, he got served with the facts and has gone into hiding under his SOE rock. |
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6/01/09 8:29:01 AM#33
I wonder how many more atrocoties they have left in the idea bank for this "game"? Since they keep having to make the next "expansion" of new lottery tickets, (cough) "CARDS" more outrageous in the loot that they give out than the previous ones to keep the $$$ flowing, how far will they go? Will they go as far as to offer special benefits, such as access to deleted professions (ie: TKA) , or a card that returns a Jedi to alpha class status? Never say never. One thing's for sure, anything new added to this game from now to closure will almost certainly be tied to TCG, as it's what's making money.
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6/03/09 8:12:28 AM#34
I guess I am a bad customer for SOE, I have never purchased TCG packs to get loot cards. Yet I have many of the premium loot just from the 5 free packs I get each month. The fact that I can get a "Boba Fett" jetpack in the TCG does not excite me since all my toons already have jetpacks. Getting a new speeder, big whoop, I got a Pod racer and the command BARC whips it ass in a race. Someone who has to be on the bleeding edge of loot in the game is most likely the same type of person who has to have those new $250.00 pair of shoes...................... |
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Originally posted by Gutboy
Your "free" packs (which are not actually free) only allows the loot cards from the current expansion boosters so if you wanted something from the previous boosters you need to coin up. -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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6/03/09 9:50:14 AM#36
Originally posted by Gutboy
Perhaps the problem isn't you the customer, but the company for doing this.
The new content model is to give players 5 chance a month to get something or else they have to pay up to see what new items have been put into the game. In the past players had to do things like quests, missions, pvp, craft and get involved with the community to actually get things in game. It is obvious by the direction soe is taking as to who they consider their premium players and who they consider lesser players. You are not at fault as a player for their actions, well not entirely. The only thing you have power over is how much money you reward them with each month for running their business in this manner. |
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