Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by hidden1

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by hidden1

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Auzy

For the love of god yes! Twitch based combat would get rid of the whole "my loot is better, so i win policy." 

 

This is another misconception about 'twitch' combat. It doesn't necessarily make equipment any less important. The relative power of gear is a seperate measure from reflexes in combat. Of course a poorly played character will always be at a disadvantage among equally geared characters, its just a matter of how much of a disadvantage.

I would have to agree with you Aganazer... in Hellgate your character build and skill tree were equally as important as the equipment you would use to compliment your build.  Hellgate was interesting in that you were able to make Green items (aka Common Equipment) potentially more powerfull than Legendary or Unique ones, howerver when you augmented, it was a random stat you could add to it, so you might get unlucky and get and augment that was not suited to your build/skill tree.  Buyt, that was the fun of it, was in taking a chance and spending your hard earned money on a random augment or 2.  Eventhough the equipment you had could make a huge difference in Hellgate at least, the players skill and equipment seemed to be well-ballanced.

Hellgate was not twitch combat. Nor was tabula rasa, or the up coming Fallen earth. They are FPS "LIKE".

 

There's not auto-target, point-n-click in Hellgate... explain your comment please, ... as far as I could tell HGL was twitched based in that the user has to aim the cursor on the target and fire.  Mind you there were such things as server lag spikes and such that made it difficult to be accurate, but regardless of the usual bugs and network limitations, the gameplay design was indeed twitch-based.  FPS "LIKE" as you put it is either twich or not... there is not in-between.
 

 

It used sticky targeting (Compensation of your ability to aim, as used in most console FPS, as long as you are "allmost" there, it compensates the rest of the way) and die rolls to determine "to hit". As well as projectiles "bending" during flight.

 

 

Twitch does not use those things.

Hence, "FPS like" or typically listed as "Action game".

 

As far as "In betweens" most of the current FPS like games are in-betweens. Tabula rasa, Fallen earth, Hellgate and others use this system. It is not 100% player aim, and has dice rolls in the background.

Yes, tetris is a "twitch" game, but most times people are referring to real time, no die roll, 100% player aim (ranged or melee) combat.

Planetside, Jumpgate, X-win VS tiefighter, Battilefield series, and yes, even darkfall/MO.

 

 

Hellgate didin't use sticky targetting nor die rolls to determine hit, they used a "broad" collision dection to compensate for server lag spikes and mob desync'ing.
 

Yes, I do.

I want a 3rd person twitch-based combat RPG original trilogy Star Wars MMO.

Mix the battlefront games ground combat with some rpg elements and... a real Star Wars theme, not a Jedi spankfest like KOTOR and bam... legendary greatness.

Originally posted by hidden1

Hellgate didin't use sticky targetting nor die rolls to determine hit, they used a "broad" collision dection to compensate for server lag spikes and mob desync'ing.
 

You keep thinking that.

Hellgate: London is a dark fantasy themed action role-playing game developed by Flagship Studios, released on October 31, 2007.

I voted no. If I want a twitch based game I will play a fighter game like Mortal Combat or something.

That isn't to say twitch based RPG's don't have a place in the genra, I just prefer not playing them. In a way though, it does defeat the purpose of, and the reason why many people fell in love with the RPG genra, which is the fact that one doesn't need good hand-eye coordination to play. It's the reason why I always prefered playing them anyway!

I also prefer a a non-twich based game because I can take my hands off of the keybord, possibly go afk while fighting, or simply so that I can chat AND play at the same time. Correect me if I'm wrong, but I don't don't any twitch based games that enable you to chat while fighting unless you want to die or you are talking on some kind of 'team speak' system.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Twitch does not use those things.

LOL! You sure about that? Can you please define your interpretation of what 'twitch' means?

Nope. Because a) I don't really like twitch play and b) MMORPGs aren't suitable for twitch play because their centralized server architecture causes unavoidable lag.

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Originally posted by Aganazer

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Twitch does not use those things.

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LOL! You sure about that? Can you please define your interpretation of what 'twitch' means?

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Again, look at the OP. His question was not about grandma's definition of "I play coking mama, its twitch", he was referring to FPS TWITCH. as was i. FPS (a form of twitch) does not use those things.

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Not talking about a hybrid, or something that LOOKS like twitch, but all combat is full on twitch based. Swinging swords is click to swing and hit. Shooting bows, spells, guns, laser guns, etc., is aim to hit with mouse and keyboard. Yes, someone can kite you while you're swinging a sword at them, unless you get real close first just like COD. This usually means if swords or knives are in the game, they need to be one hit kills, or else they are useless.

 

Again, in this scenario, there is ZERO dice rolls, tables, etc. You hit, or you don't hit based on twitch combat.

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

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Originally posted by Aganazer

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Twitch does not use those things.

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LOL! You sure about that? Can you please define your interpretation of what 'twitch' means?

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Again, look at the OP. His question was not about grandma's definition of "I play coking mama, its twitch", he was referring to FPS TWITCH. as was i. FPS (a form of twitch) does not use those things.

 

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Not talking about a hybrid, or something that LOOKS like twitch, but all combat is full on twitch based. Swinging swords is click to swing and hit. Shooting bows, spells, guns, laser guns, etc., is aim to hit with mouse and keyboard. Yes, someone can kite you while you're swinging a sword at them, unless you get real close first just like COD. This usually means if swords or knives are in the game, they need to be one hit kills, or else they are useless.

 

Again, in this scenario, there is ZERO dice rolls, tables, etc. You hit, or you don't hit based on twitch combat.

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Thanks for pointing that out. I had almost forgotten what the OP was about. There seems to be a lot of interpretation on these forums when it comes to certain words.  Sandbox, themepark, twitch, FPS, "Massively" in the acronym MMORPG. It seems like no one can agree on these things. I always fall back on the most simple and broadest meaning of these. Its also good to take some outside references when in doubt.

I don't think Mrbloodworth or Ihmotepp were using 'twitch' in the right way. That is why we have references like that wiki definition. If we just start making up new meanings for these words and acronyms then we will never get anywhere because no one will know what anyone is talking about.

FPS means First Person Shooter. For the logic impaired that means a FPS is anything where you play in first person and shoot things. There have been turn based first person shooters (TBFPS). So FPS isn't even a form of twitch. Its a point of view with projectiles.

FPS (Genre) is a form of twitch. The one the OP was talking about. At this point, we are arguing semantic, the OP spelled out what he was talking about.

Yes, but properly implemented. A mix of the two would be nice as some people suggested already. See System Shock 2 for references.

Originally posted by Routver

Yes, but properly implemented. A mix of the two would be nice as some people suggested already. See System Shock 2 for references.

Love that game, and yes, its a perfect example. (one, not two)

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

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Originally posted by Aganazer

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Twitch does not use those things.

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LOL! You sure about that? Can you please define your interpretation of what 'twitch' means?

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Again, look at the OP. His question was not about grandma's definition of "I play coking mama, its twitch", he was referring to FPS TWITCH. as was i. FPS (a form of twitch) does not use those things.

 

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Not talking about a hybrid, or something that LOOKS like twitch, but all combat is full on twitch based. Swinging swords is click to swing and hit. Shooting bows, spells, guns, laser guns, etc., is aim to hit with mouse and keyboard. Yes, someone can kite you while you're swinging a sword at them, unless you get real close first just like COD. This usually means if swords or knives are in the game, they need to be one hit kills, or else they are useless.

 

Again, in this scenario, there is ZERO dice rolls, tables, etc. You hit, or you don't hit based on twitch combat.

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Thanks for pointing that out. I had almost forgotten what the OP was about. There seems to be a lot of interpretation on these forums when it comes to certain words.  Sandbox, themepark, twitch, FPS, "Massively" in the acronym MMORPG. It seems like no one can agree on these things. I always fall back on the most simple and broadest meaning of these. Its also good to take some outside references when in doubt.

I don't think Mrbloodworth or Ihmotepp were using 'twitch' in the right way. That is why we have references like that wiki definition. If we just start making up new meanings for these words and acronyms then we will never get anywhere because no one will know what anyone is talking about.

FPS means First Person Shooter. For the logic impaired that means a FPS is anything where you play in first person and shoot things. There have been turn based first person shooters (TBFPS). So FPS isn't even a form of twitch. Its a point of view with projectiles.

Point taken. I was talking about "twitch" combat, that is using reflexes wiht mouse and keyboard, and using the First Person Shooter as a reference, since MOST first person shooters are twitch based, like the oft referenced CAll of Duty, and Battlefield.

However, you are technically correct. You could have a First Person Shooter that was a role playing game, where all combat was based on dice rolls I suppose, though I can't think of one. It would be first person, and yoiu would be "shooting".

Conversely, you could have a twitch based combat game that was not FIRST person, but instead THIRD person. So it would NOT be a first person shooter, but it would be a twitch based combat game.

But, I think when you say "FPS" most will think Battlefield and Call of Duty, which are twitch based combat games, not something else. If you mean something else when you say FPS, you should clarify, otherwise I think it's safe to think CoD or Battlefield type games.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by hidden1

Hellgate didin't use sticky targetting nor die rolls to determine hit, they used a "broad" collision dection to compensate for server lag spikes and mob desync'ing.
 

You keep thinking that.

Hellgate: London is a dark fantasy themed action role-playing game developed by Flagship Studios, released on October 31, 2007.

Sio what you're saying is that it's speculation on my part, and so fine... I can only go by how it reacted to my gameplay skills... basically if it's true as you say it is, then why did it have so many desync problems and server spikes would throw off the aiming.  If what you're saying is true, then why would you shoot mobs dead on, and it would calculate a miss??  I think it's the otherway around.  But hey, my speculation is mine and I suppose you're speculation is yours...

The only way you would know for sure is if you're either Bill Roper or and ex-FSS dev team member... or you're just a speculator just like me.

isn't Aion meant to be twitch? If so, think how well that does in the West may reveal just how demanded twitch is.

My answer yes incidentally. I think there is room for turn-based and twitch-based, and twitch-based from my perspective would be quite welcome in a genre based upon repetition then at least you will have more variety in combat..

Originally posted by spades07

isn't Aion meant to be twitch? If so, think how well that does in the West may reveal just how demanded twitch is.

I haven't played it yet, but I can do some speculation (hidden1-style) and say 'no'.

MOB's are targetted so there is no precision required. If you use an attack while pointing at an untargetted MOB I am guessing the attack won't even be registered since the MOB isn't targetted.

I don't know how important reaction time is in Aion. From the little I have seen the combat looks to be rather slow. I know there are buffs you get while moving just like AoC had, but those are in place as stat buffs rather than moving to physically dodge attacks so I'm not seeing any real need for reaction timing for them at all.

Coming up I know that there are some twitch elements to a few MMORPG's. Fallen Earth requires aiming (precision). Champions has manual blocking (reaction timing). Jumpgate Evolution requires aiming and possibly some manual dodging.

I seem to be hearing different news from Earthrise. One day I'll hear that they have targetted aiming and then the next its manual aiming. Slow combat one day, fast the next. I don't know what to think of Earthrise yet.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by spades07

isn't Aion meant to be twitch? If so, think how well that does in the West may reveal just how demanded twitch is.

 

I haven't played it yet, but I can do some speculation (hidden1-style) and say 'no'.

MOB's are targetted so there is no precision required. If you use an attack while pointing at an untargetted MOB I am guessing the attack won't even be registered since the MOB isn't targetted.

I don't know how important reaction time is in Aion. From the little I have seen the combat looks to be rather slow. I know there are buffs you get while moving just like AoC had, but those are in place as stat buffs rather than moving to physically dodge attacks so I'm not seeing any real need for reaction timing for them at all.

Coming up I know that there are some twitch elements to a few MMORPG's. Fallen Earth requires aiming (precision). Champions has manual blocking (reaction timing). Jumpgate Evolution requires aiming and possibly some manual dodging.

I seem to be hearing different news from Earthrise. One day I'll hear that they have targetted aiming and then the next its manual aiming. Slow combat one day, fast the next. I don't know what to think of Earthrise yet.

As you stated, "moving physically to dodge attacks" that was the cool thing about Hellgate.  Some mobs had weapons that would be like firing bullets while others had magic attacks that would track your movements.  But even still if you were quick enough you could avoid the "locked" on spell/magic attacks by going around a building and/or wall.  The attack would track you but would hit the wall instead of your character.

It gives you not only dodge but avoidance tactics to gameplay.  Anything that adds to the gameplay freedom is a plus for me.

Originally posted by hidden1

As you stated, "moving physically to dodge attacks" that was the cool thing about Hellgate.  Some mobs had weapons that would be like firing bullets while others had magic attacks that would track your movements.  But even still if you were quick enough you could avoid the "locked" on spell/magic attacks by going around a building and/or wall.  The attack would track you but would hit the wall instead of your character.

It gives you not only dodge but avoidance tactics to gameplay.  Anything that adds to the gameplay freedom is a plus for me.

AoC use a similar system. All hits are determined by detecting if the swords physicly hits the players body and everyone the sword touches gets hit.

This is actually brilliant but still a bit primitive. In the future this could lead to really cool dodging and even hit locations. And you could of course stop the animation once you hit someone to make the animations and battles feel more realistic.

I'm going to throw this opinion based on the fact that I grew up on FPS games before MMORPGs.

If they came out with a good twitch based rpg PvP game (somewhat like planetside I guess with the RPG part put in) 
And it looked nice and it played nice but with swords and such.

I would play that until I died. When you say twitch based, do you mean somewhat like a fast paced Morrowind kind of combat? Or something else?

Originally posted by kallion86

I would play that until I died. When you say twitch based, do you mean somewhat like a fast paced Morrowind kind of combat? Or something else?

That's the idea. The melee aspects of Morrowind and Oblivion are still kind of simplistic. I don't think they would be fun for long enough to keep players subscribed.

Something along the lines of (but not exactly like) The Chronicles of Spellborn might do the trick. I don't mean the tumbler, but the wide range of abilities and how they interact in a meaningful way.