Some people play the same MMORPG for years. That's true. However, the vast majority of players stay with an MMORPG for about 8-9 months.

Even WoW. This rate of churn (sorry I don't have the links handy atm) has been the same for almost 10 years now.

But, it's not important if players quit if you keep replacing them wiht new ones.

My point is simple. DF can't stick around by holding on to it's current player base. If they plan to make it for the long haul, they need a constant supply of new players. Otherwise, in about 8-9 months, the real churn will start as most players move on to other games, like they do with just about every game.

They have to get it together, open up the server on a permanent basis to new players, and get some ads going before the major churn starts, or they will not do very well. They could be the exception to the general rule, but it would not be good business strategy to count on that.

Presumably, as soon as the initial rush stops, they will offer a free trial.  Which is precisely what I'm waiting for before I'll buy the game.

 I followed Darkfall for a long time and while I've not purchased the game I believe the Darkfall "Store" is currently open for all who wish to purchase it.  (Though the Develpers didn't say this is a permanent change.)

once Aion and MO come out, the dwindling DF player base will be hit very hard.

Originally posted by IVlonarch

once Aion and MO come out, the dwindling DF player base will be hit very hard.

I really doubt anyone playing and enjoying DF would leave for Aion. I really doubt that. I think Aion might be the first game to seriously put a dent in WoWs subs if anything.

MO though is direct competition in many ways. However, MO seems to be geared more for PVE and RP/immersion. DF will still appeal to those who want a clan-based, territorial/political game wtih siege warfare.

Originally posted by Wycliffe

I really doubt anyone playing and enjoying DF would leave for Aion. I really doubt that. I think Aion might be the first game to seriously put a dent in WoWs subs if anything.

MO though is direct competition in many ways. However, MO seems to be geared more for PVE and RP/immersion. DF will still appeal to those who want a clan-based, territorial/political game wtih siege warfare.

I agree with this.   Aion I'm sure will be a good game in it's own right, but the audience is a lot different despite both being geared towards PvP in some way.   Darkfall people tend to like Darkfall because of the freedom, high risk/reward in PvP, and political metagame.  I think Aion is much more of a threat to Warhammer and Conan.

MO looks interesting enough, and I hope it does well.   The more sandboxes the better the genre will be.   Judging from what little I know about it at this point, I think my greatest concern is whether or not that graphic engine will be able sustain a lot of players in close proximity.    Whether they intend the game to be small scale PvP or not, those situation will be inevitable when there is no instancing.

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Wycliffe

I really doubt anyone playing and enjoying DF would leave for Aion. I really doubt that. I think Aion might be the first game to seriously put a dent in WoWs subs if anything.

MO though is direct competition in many ways. However, MO seems to be geared more for PVE and RP/immersion. DF will still appeal to those who want a clan-based, territorial/political game wtih siege warfare.

 

I agree with this.   Aion I'm sure will be a good game in it's own right, but the audience is a lot different despite both being geared towards PvP in some way.   Darkfall people tend to like Darkfall because of the freedom, high risk/reward in PvP, and political metagame.  I think Aion is much more of a threat to Warhammer and Conan.

MO looks interesting enough, and I hope it does well.   The more sandboxes the better the genre will be.   Judging from what little I know about it at this point, I think my greatest concern is whether or not that graphic engine will be able sustain a lot of players in close proximity.    Whether they intend the game to be small scale PvP or not, those situation will be inevitable when there is no instancing.

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

Originally posted by IVlonarch

once Aion and MO come out, the dwindling DF player base will be hit very hard.

This somewhat misses the point of the original post. The point is "churn".

Players hop from game to game, and on average play each one about 8-9 months.

Aion and MO in that case, will not, and cannot hurt DF. DF players WILL leave DF whether Aion or MO releases or not, and play something else after 8-9 months. It doesn't have to be Aion or MO, it can be anything.

Similarly, players will sign up for MO or Aion, and play for on average, about 8-9 months. After that, they will look for something else, which COULD be DF.

Look at posts in the Pub section of the forums. Most people have played over 10 mmorpgs. They don't just leave one MMORPG for the next one, and then stick with the new MMORPG for the next 5 years. They leave whatever they are playing because they are bored, play the next one, get bored with that, and then try something else, maybe even something that's been released for a while, maybe go back to something they've played before, etc.

 Personally, I'm looking forward to TOR , and have about zero interest in Aion or MO. MO looks like another attempt to shoe horn in FPS combt into an RPG, where IMO, it doesn't belong.

Originally posted by rav3n2

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

touche

Originally posted by rav3n2

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Wycliffe

I really doubt anyone playing and enjoying DF would leave for Aion. I really doubt that. I think Aion might be the first game to seriously put a dent in WoWs subs if anything.

MO though is direct competition in many ways. However, MO seems to be geared more for PVE and RP/immersion. DF will still appeal to those who want a clan-based, territorial/political game wtih siege warfare.

 

I agree with this.   Aion I'm sure will be a good game in it's own right, but the audience is a lot different despite both being geared towards PvP in some way.   Darkfall people tend to like Darkfall because of the freedom, high risk/reward in PvP, and political metagame.  I think Aion is much more of a threat to Warhammer and Conan.

MO looks interesting enough, and I hope it does well.   The more sandboxes the better the genre will be.   Judging from what little I know about it at this point, I think my greatest concern is whether or not that graphic engine will be able sustain a lot of players in close proximity.    Whether they intend the game to be small scale PvP or not, those situation will be inevitable when there is no instancing.

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

I also wonder what will happen when/if the Darkfall community moves to MO? There seems to be so much whining towards the community, will they behave in MO? Dont think so : )

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Even WoW. This rate of churn (sorry I don't have the links handy atm) has been the same for almost 10 years now.

wait... WoW has been around for 10years?  thats news to me.

and anyone who thinks AION won't take some subs from DF is being silly.  DF is sandbox, but if people wanted a good sandbox they'd play Ryzom.  DF really sports FFA PVP, that means any game that sports good PvP will hurt DF.  sure Aion is faction based PVP, but I know at least 1 person who is willing to lose FFA in order to get a working game.

You really need to relate DF to EVE more as far as its fanbase.  EVE is small but grows, it doesn't churn through people like WoW does.  EVE is a HUGE turnoff for many people, they give it a try and either stop after the trial, or after the first 1-2 months.  DF is the same way.  you're going to have most people leaving after their free month is up, and the dedicated player base sticking around for the long run.  unlike WoW which is more as you explain, it churns through players as they complete content, and keeps grabbing more.

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Wycliffe

I really doubt anyone playing and enjoying DF would leave for Aion. I really doubt that. I think Aion might be the first game to seriously put a dent in WoWs subs if anything.

MO though is direct competition in many ways. However, MO seems to be geared more for PVE and RP/immersion. DF will still appeal to those who want a clan-based, territorial/political game wtih siege warfare.

 

I agree with this.   Aion I'm sure will be a good game in it's own right, but the audience is a lot different despite both being geared towards PvP in some way.   Darkfall people tend to like Darkfall because of the freedom, high risk/reward in PvP, and political metagame.  I think Aion is much more of a threat to Warhammer and Conan.

MO looks interesting enough, and I hope it does well.   The more sandboxes the better the genre will be.   Judging from what little I know about it at this point, I think my greatest concern is whether or not that graphic engine will be able sustain a lot of players in close proximity.    Whether they intend the game to be small scale PvP or not, those situation will be inevitable when there is no instancing.

I agree with your MO doubts but I have to be honest I think it could do really well and I am sure alot of DF player's will be trying it out,I also think if it release's in good enough shape alot of the DF player's that did try wont be returning to DF.

Sorry paragus as much as I enjoy your blogs I see this game spending Christmas with TR,I think even the most hard-core DF player cant in all honesty say they will not  jump ship to MO if it releases in good shape...note I did not say perfect but in a good shape.

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

Originally posted by Routver

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

 

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

So its not the hackers fault for hacking into a MMO? For me its impossible to think as you do. So if i get shot, its my fault for letting myself get shot? (i know the action is not the same thing, but we are talking whos fault it is, and then it works)

Why not blame the hacker instead? Thats what i do. By your reasoning, everything that can be hacked is poor coding.

And dont you think Aventurine have learned from this? I do. Same as any other company would do.

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by Routver

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

 

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

 

So its not the hackers fault for hacking into a MMO? For me its impossible to think as you do. So if i get shot, its my fault for letting myself get shot? (i know the action is not the same thing, but we are talking whos fault it is, and then it works)

Why not blame the hacker instead? Thats what i do. By your reasoning, everything that can be hacked is poor coding.

And dont you think Aventurine have learned from this? I do. Same as any other company would do.

Yes. It is poor coding. You have to protect your game. If you aren't expecting hacks then you are dumb. Putting most of the game client side is similar to handing the game to hackers on a silver platter or bending over and handing them the lube. Darkfall might be ok but this part of it is stupid as hell and its definitely time for you to stop fighting the bad fight.

Originally posted by Carl132p

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by Routver

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

 

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

 

So its not the hackers fault for hacking into a MMO? For me its impossible to think as you do. So if i get shot, its my fault for letting myself get shot? (i know the action is not the same thing, but we are talking whos fault it is, and then it works)

Why not blame the hacker instead? Thats what i do. By your reasoning, everything that can be hacked is poor coding.

And dont you think Aventurine have learned from this? I do. Same as any other company would do.

Yes. It is poor coding. You have to protect your game. If you aren't expecting hacks then you are dumb. Putting most of the game client side is similar to handing the game to hackers on a silver platter or bending over and handing them the lube. Darkfall might be ok but this part of it is stupid as hell and its definitely time for you to stop fighting the bad fight.

I'm sorry Daarco but I will have to agree with this.  One of the first things programmers are taught (or should have been taught) is if the end -user can do something, they will do something unintentionally or not.  As the programmer you have to do everything you can think of to try and make your program dumby and hacker proof.  Now I have never programmed a game in my life let alone an MMORPG but a game that uses a client-server relationship the 2 best ways I can think of to make it harder for hackers is to keep the important code on the server side if possible and don't trust a single bit of information sent to the server.  I could be totally wrong but like I said I have never wrote code for this type of stuff.  

Anyhow if Aventurine did put a ton of their code on the client side then yes, it's their fault. It's like giving a test , then writing all the anwsers on to the board and then getting mad that everyone cheated.  Now do not get me wrong, I do not like hackers at all.  They are the bane of every game's existence as far as I am concerned.  At the same time though, Aventurine should have known better to put all that code on the client-side if they truly did.

I guess I can sum up everything I said in 6 words.

Defensive coding is your best friend!!! 

how can anyone play a game thatfull of so many hacks and exploits if this happen to wow the game would fall apart i just dont get how they have survived this long hacks in a mmo ruin them completly.

Originally posted by bustaj

Originally posted by Carl132p

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by Routver

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

 

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

 

So its not the hackers fault for hacking into a MMO? For me its impossible to think as you do. So if i get shot, its my fault for letting myself get shot? (i know the action is not the same thing, but we are talking whos fault it is, and then it works)

Why not blame the hacker instead? Thats what i do. By your reasoning, everything that can be hacked is poor coding.

And dont you think Aventurine have learned from this? I do. Same as any other company would do.

Yes. It is poor coding. You have to protect your game. If you aren't expecting hacks then you are dumb. Putting most of the game client side is similar to handing the game to hackers on a silver platter or bending over and handing them the lube. Darkfall might be ok but this part of it is stupid as hell and its definitely time for you to stop fighting the bad fight.

I'm sorry Daarco but I will have to agree with this.  One of the first things programmers are taught (or should have been taught) is if the end -user can do something, they will do something unintentionally or not.  As the programmer you have to do everything you can think of to try and make your program dumby and hacker proof.  Now I have never programmed a game in my life let alone an MMORPG but a game that uses a client-server relationship the 2 best ways I can think of to make it harder for hackers is to keep the important code on the server side if possible and don't trust a single bit of information sent to the server.  I could be totally wrong but like I said I have never wrote code for this type of stuff.  

Anyhow if Aventurine did put a ton of their code on the client side then yes, it's their fault. It's like giving a test , then writing all the anwsers on to the board and then getting mad that everyone cheated.  Now do not get me wrong, I do not like hackers at all.  They are the bane of every game's existence as far as I am concerned.  At the same time though, Aventurine should have known better to put all that code on the client-side if they truly did.

I guess I can sum up everything I said in 6 words.

Defensive coding is your best friend!!! 

I love defensive coding : )   

And im not only talking about Darkfall, Im talking about every MMO. Right now im watching speedhacks and teleportation hacks from SWG, AoC, WoW and EQ on youtube. Poor coding seems to be the norm for major companys as well.

So that is why i cant blame the devs for this. Its the hackers fault. And who would be so stupid to think a dev team dont try and prevent this? So why is it so incredible we see hacks in DF, and it seems to be ok with other MMOs??

Originally posted by daarco

 I love defensive coding : )   

And im not only talking about Darkfall, Im talking about every MMO. Right now im watching speedhacks and teleportation hacks from SWG, AoC, WoW and EQ on youtube. Poor coding seems to be the norm for major companys as well.

So that is why i cant blame the devs for this. Its the hackers fault. And who would be so stupid to think a dev team dont try and prevent this? So why is it so incredible we see hacks in DF, and it seems to be ok with other MMOs??

Ok i'm a bit confused here. What's this called again? Spin or strawman agument ? Or maybe daarco just invented a spinning strawman argument?

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by bustaj

Originally posted by Carl132p

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by Routver

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rav3n2

 

If MO doesnt allow ppl flying away with ships thats a step in the right direction I think.

 

Dont think darkfall allow it either. Thats why we have hackers doing it instead of the devteam : (

 

I guess you didn't get it. If your game's coding allow players to completely turn upside down one of your greatest features, it's you and your poor game's coding fault.

 

So its not the hackers fault for hacking into a MMO? For me its impossible to think as you do. So if i get shot, its my fault for letting myself get shot? (i know the action is not the same thing, but we are talking whos fault it is, and then it works)

Why not blame the hacker instead? Thats what i do. By your reasoning, everything that can be hacked is poor coding.

And dont you think Aventurine have learned from this? I do. Same as any other company would do.

Yes. It is poor coding. You have to protect your game. If you aren't expecting hacks then you are dumb. Putting most of the game client side is similar to handing the game to hackers on a silver platter or bending over and handing them the lube. Darkfall might be ok but this part of it is stupid as hell and its definitely time for you to stop fighting the bad fight.

I'm sorry Daarco but I will have to agree with this.  One of the first things programmers are taught (or should have been taught) is if the end -user can do something, they will do something unintentionally or not.  As the programmer you have to do everything you can think of to try and make your program dumby and hacker proof.  Now I have never programmed a game in my life let alone an MMORPG but a game that uses a client-server relationship the 2 best ways I can think of to make it harder for hackers is to keep the important code on the server side if possible and don't trust a single bit of information sent to the server.  I could be totally wrong but like I said I have never wrote code for this type of stuff.  

Anyhow if Aventurine did put a ton of their code on the client side then yes, it's their fault. It's like giving a test , then writing all the anwsers on to the board and then getting mad that everyone cheated.  Now do not get me wrong, I do not like hackers at all.  They are the bane of every game's existence as far as I am concerned.  At the same time though, Aventurine should have known better to put all that code on the client-side if they truly did.

I guess I can sum up everything I said in 6 words.

Defensive coding is your best friend!!! 

 

I love defensive coding : )   

And im not only talking about Darkfall, Im talking about every MMO. Right now im watching speedhacks and teleportation hacks from SWG, AoC, WoW and EQ on youtube. Poor coding seems to be the norm for major companys as well.

So that is why i cant blame the devs for this. Its the hackers fault. And who would be so stupid to think a dev team dont try and prevent this? So why is it so incredible we see hacks in DF, and it seems to be ok with other MMOs??

Speed and teleport hacks are a dime a dozen, always have been. Because walking has to be made to go in sync between client and server, so there is the ability to forcibly change info sent and recieved.
 

Now, show me a land speeder, a mammoth mount, a gnome's chopper, and a shammy's bear being grabbed and flown away by another person. Making a non-flying object fly away is relying on code that should have been on the server side, for developers' use only, from the beginning. That is a GM-level "hack" that would not be possible in the other games you mentioned. Why? Because the devs made them server side only where they belong.