The thread basically says most of it all. First of all what's wrong with them?...every MMO that I've played that's tried to implement free aiming/FPS style aiming has felt slow, unresponsive, clunky and awkward to boot (basically they tend to feel like so pop-up games where you shoot the targets). So, until they implement the technology to maintain the flowing feel of FPS aiming style with thousands of players playing at once, it's not gonna happen. All these hopes for a "twitch based" MMO to show off your skillz will continue to be crushed due to design limitations. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe one does exist. But I doubt it, because if it existed, a whole lot more people would be playing it.

Just for clarities sake. In an ideal world you would get a game like Oblivion and be able to implement that type of combat system into an MMO, until then, it'll all be second rate.

I remember planetside having pretty tight controls but its been so long and I never really played more then a week or two.

Hmm yeah. I never played that one myself but it looks like it plays like this old rainbox six demo I got for the pc a little bit back. I'm not sure what it is for me but all these "twitch based" MMOs are lacking hard in the one area that is their main attraction...the controls. I know DFO is horrible but it's the most recent one to come out and that (not getting into the lack of depth in the combat) has a basic feel of awkward to me. It's almost depressing to play a game based on FPS style aim and know that the whole thing was dumbed down to meet the specifications an MMO requires. Honestly, it makes you feel like you're playing the first playstation 2 bond game, which plays pretty damn awkard.

Speaking of these FPSMMOs FElooks more like a rainbox six throwback than a next-gen title but that's just me.

Originally posted by TheHavok

I remember planetside having pretty tight controls but its been so long and I never really played more then a week or two.

That is the 1st thing that came to my mind also. I played PS for a long time and loved the way it worked as an MMOFPS. And that came out a long time ago too.

what is that game called? mortal online?

it has oblivion type of combat (from the looks of it) and its not released yet lol

Yeah, Mortal Online is the next one in the pipes that's within this sub-genre. It looks good from the trailer but I'm not gonna bet on it because too many games have burned people lately. Definitely not gonna be convinced until I get my hands on it or at least somewhat convinced until I see some very very convincing actual gameplay footage that's not hardcore edited.

As for planetiside, when I read a review I think it mentioned that it was done by the same people who did tribes 2? That would have been a total put off for me. Just never liked the way the tribes games played. I still stick to my original statement haha but others may completely disagree...who knows!

Edit: Along with MO I guess there's also FE and maybe a few others but my attention is on MO out of those choices.

Planetside, wwiionline, endlessages,and 10six all great feeling mmofps.......

They were all very fun to play, but they all needed something else to make them a great MMO though.

Just remember ANY game can be made a mmo.

Panetside worked perfect as a FPS, the controls, vehicles, everything was good, just as a FPS should be.

The mass battles were nice, etc.

The only problem was that it was not deep enough for me to keep playing. It was more a large scale FPS, then it was a mmorpg, where you develop your character and build a community.

I am sorry but i must disagree, this game comes out closed beta in 2 days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NmHMcNi5c

It is called Huxley, it uses the unreal 3 engine

it can have 5000 people each sever.

and TANKS, PLANES, ETC......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMgJaIpTi_M

Planetside didn't work like a real shooter, I am fairly certain it didn't trace the paths of individual bullets serverside for example. The client just checked if the player was aiming more or less in the right direction, a bit like it worked in tabula rasa, although not as obvious.

There is a large difference between this and a true fps, because it provides an easy way for the server to limit the amount of information it needs to keep track of.  If the system makes use of hard or soft targeting, then the client can send a request to the server like  "Hey, player X is trying to shoot player Y, and from where I'm standing it seems to be possible, is it a hit?" the server provides a sanity check and a hit roll and returns the answer to the clients belonging to X and Y. It is still a lot of information to process, but nothing compared to what it would be in a real fps.

If you fire ten bullets from an mp5 in CS, then your client sends a bunch of packages containing the exact point of origin as well as the direction of each bullet. The server then proceeds to match the path of each bullet with the position of every player in the vicinity as well as the geometry of the environment to see exactly what the bullets actually managed to hit, then it proceeds to distribute the result to all the players so their respective clients can render bullet holes in the appropriate locations, as well as inform some unlucky player that "Hey, you stopped a bullet with your frontal cortex, you're dead dude". And all of it needs to be done with a latency of less than 100 ms for it to work smoothly.

It is by no means impossible to use the true fps mechanic in a persistent world, but the server needs to divide the world into as many  separate causal domains as possible, because the workload grows at a frightening rate with the number of players. And to my knowledge there is no other way to do this than to use a LOT of instances and let in no more than about 50 players in each. It's conceivable that someone could come up with another clever way to do this, something that seems transperant, and gives the illusion of a seamless world, but it seems a long way of to me.

Planetside LOOKED like an FPS but that was it.  Aiming was just a replacement for a target lock.  It was just a target check, which is VERY different than a real FPS.   Stats still decided hit/miss and damage.   You could miss over and over again, even if it looks like you're aiming perfectly.  This is fine.  If people didn't know this, it blows my mind.  The first person mode was just wrapping.   So saying Planetside did twitch is extremely naive.  It was no more twitch than WOW.

After aiming perfectly like I would in any FPS only to see, miss, miss, miss...I uninstalled.  At that time, I could go play UT2k3 with better graphics, better weapons, better control, better maps, better latency, better evrerything and without a monthly fee, travel times, leveling up, ect.  and my actually skill mattered.   Forget about current online FPSs.. Now with how character growth is integrated welll into FPSs, Planetside is just lost in the middle, not doing anything particularly well.

Its simply impossible for 100s of player in any sort of persistent area in a normal MMO to feel "good" withot running into the lag beast.   A real FPS isn't happening for a while. 

Huxely by the way looks like its set up just like DDO.  A persistent city but all fighting is done in instances of varying sizes and objectives.  How can you blame them?  It can't be done any other way.  The game will be a total waste with too many players in the same area, so you can't really aim.

Originally posted by whatamidoing

The thread basically says most of it all. First of all what's wrong with them?...every MMO that I've played that's tried to implement free aiming/FPS style aiming has felt slow, unresponsive, clunky and awkward to boot (basically they tend to feel like so pop-up games where you shoot the targets). So, until they implement the technology to maintain the flowing feel of FPS aiming style with thousands of players playing at once, it's not gonna happen. All these hopes for a "twitch based" MMO to show off your skillz will continue to be crushed due to design limitations. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe one does exist. But I doubt it, because if it existed, a whole lot more people would be playing it.

Just for clarities sake. In an ideal world you would get a game like Oblivion and be able to implement that type of combat system into an MMO, until then, it'll all be second rate.

I would change your title to "FPSMMOs/"twitch based" MMOs won't be good. I'd leave off the "fora awhile" part.

IMO, the only thing you are doing is adding numbers to a First Person Shooter Game. I think the topic is better placed on a forum for First Person Shooters.

Go to your favorite First Person Shooter forum and ask, instead of 28v28, how can we do 1,000 vs 1,000 in an FPS?

That's really all you get. I don't need it or want it, and can't see how 1,000 vs 1,000 in an FPS is more fun than 28 vs 28.

What's the minimum number you'd be happy with in your First Person Shooter? 1,000 vs 1,000, basically 2k  on a server shooting each other. Or 2k vs 2k?

I dont know where you guys are coming up with this stuff about planetside.....would love to see some sort of link.

I looked around and could find no informaiton about the planetside engine (verant engine?)..

I do know that if i fire a lasher at a target  and someone jumps infront of my lasher round they will get hit and not my target..... that leads me to believe that both your statements are false. Planetside might not have a ballistics pysics engine to determine bullet fall and such, but i couldnt tell you if ut3 has that either. Planetside is at least 6 years old they didnt have the type of computing power we have now, so I'm sure they could make a version of planetside with everything that any new fps has.

1000vs1000 is all you get?  Are you serious? I image so much more from a mmo....

I see a mmofps being a world with faction where guilds fight other guilds for world domination, and economies with limited resources, where you design the outlay and defenses of YOUR bases and have to protect them at all costs vs enemy attacks . O wait i already played that mmofps.....10six......

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Originally posted by Josher

 

Planetside LOOKED like an FPS but that was it.  Aiming was just a replacement for a target lock.  It was just a target check, which is VERY different than a real FPS.   Stats still decided hit/miss and damage.   You could miss over and over again, even if it looks like you're aiming perfectly. 

 

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You dont know what you are talking about.

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Originally posted by Karbonoid

 

Planetside didn't work like a real shooter, I am fairly certain it didn't trace the paths of individual bullets serverside for example. The client just checked if the player was aiming more or less in the right direction, a bit like it worked in tabula rasa, although not as obvious.

 

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You too. Stop talking.

And yes, Planetside was the next evolution of Tribes, made by the same people (Different game play however). The engine is a custom one, that is now available to buy if you want to. But its KIN, is the Torque game engine, also, made by the people who made the Tribes series.

Also, keep your eye on M.A.G

http://www.massivefps.com/

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

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Originally posted by Josher

 

Planetside LOOKED like an FPS but that was it.  Aiming was just a replacement for a target lock.  It was just a target check, which is VERY different than a real FPS.   Stats still decided hit/miss and damage.   You could miss over and over again, even if it looks like you're aiming perfectly. 

 

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You dont know what you are talking about.

 

 

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Originally posted by Karbonoid

 

Planetside didn't work like a real shooter, I am fairly certain it didn't trace the paths of individual bullets serverside for example. The client just checked if the player was aiming more or less in the right direction, a bit like it worked in tabula rasa, although not as obvious.

 

---

You too. Stop talking.

 

And yes, Planetside was the next evolution of Tribes, made by the same people (Different game play however). The engine is a custom one, that is now available to buy if you want to. But its KIN, is the Torque game engine, also, made by the people who made the Tribes series.

 

Also, keep your eye on M.A.G

 

So what really killed it? Looking into MAG thanks

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

So what really killed it? Looking into MAG thanks

Its not dead.

But, lack of development, problems with the original creation of the game tech with no real thought to updating the game, the addition of an expansion pack that increase the already massive amounts of land mass (READ: Thin out players over more area). Repetitive gameplay (due to, lack of devlopment).

But, mostly, lack of development.

But, even with all that, it has game play, and scale you cant find right now, there is nothing like it, and it was the first of its kind.

Originally posted by whatamidoing

The thread basically says most of it all. First of all what's wrong with them?...every MMO that I've played that's tried to implement free aiming/FPS style aiming has felt slow, unresponsive, clunky and awkward to boot (basically they tend to feel like so pop-up games where you shoot the targets). So, until they implement the technology to maintain the flowing feel of FPS aiming style with thousands of players playing at once, it's not gonna happen. All these hopes for a "twitch based" MMO to show off your skillz will continue to be crushed due to design limitations. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe one does exist. But I doubt it, because if it existed, a whole lot more people would be playing it.

Just for clarities sake. In an ideal world you would get a game like Oblivion and be able to implement that type of combat system into an MMO, until then, it'll all be second rate.

Funny because DDO, TCoS, and even TR all felt about 1000 times more responsive and less clunky than the systems in EQ/WoW and their ilk. Maybe its your system or internet connection.

And please don't make a game like Oblivion but MMOG. That was a console game full of bad ideas. The combat system in DDO is much much better in every way.

Planetside worked exactly like any other FPS.  Client-side hit verification:

• Projectiles are immediately fired, rather than being delayed by lag.
• If you see a shot land, it hits.

So basically it's the exact same as 99% of FPSes post-Half Life 1.

Planetside's primary failing was that the FPS gameplay wasn't as tight as pure shooters.  It's secondary failing was it had terrible performance (yes, I know some of you probably ran perfectly fine in 200vs200vs200 fights; but the vast majority did not.)  And like any game there were a spread of other minute failings that didn't really matter compared to the first two.

Overall it was an awesome game, and one I spent like 2.5 years playing.  I eagerly await another MMOFPS which manages to match its glory, as FPS style combat tends to be far more enjoyable - particularly with the excellent mix of vehicles Planetside had.

It's unfortunate that all the shots I've seen of Huxley have made it out to be far shallower a shooter than Planetside.  Maybe things will have changed in the time since I last saw a new trailer for it.  Mortal Online is even less enticing to me -- at this point anyway, since all I've ever seen is that CG Trailer which shows zero gameplay.

Originally posted by Karbonoid

....It is by no means impossible to use the true fps mechanic in a persistent world, but the server needs to divide the world into as many  separate causal domains as possible, because the workload grows at a frightening rate with the number of players. And to my knowledge there is no other way to do this than to use a LOT of instances and let in no more than about 50 players in each. It's conceivable that someone could come up with another clever way to do this, something that seems transperant, and gives the illusion of a seamless world, but it seems a long way of to me.

This is not only possible, it's already in use today in at least one MMO I know of. That game would be Vanguard, and despite it's operational flaws, is actually a very forward-thinking design.

Ask any Vanguard vet about "chunking", they'll know exactly what you are refering to...

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

So what really killed it? Looking into MAG thanks

Its not dead.

But, lack of development, problems with the original creation of the game tech with no real thought to updating the game, the addition of an expansion pack that increase the already massive amounts of land mass (READ: Thin out players over more area). Repetitive gameplay (due to, lack of devlopment).

But, mostly, lack of development.

 

But, even with all that, it has game play, and scale you cant find right now, there is nothing like it, and it was the first of its kind.

 

For me, I would say there were 2 main reasons for PS 'death' (or lack of the popularity it deserves). Firstly it was a large FPS and that was it. By design it simply lacked many features mmog'ers at that time expected.

Lastly it is heavily clientside dependant. This is, to my mind, is a fundantal mistake for any mmo, but currently a fundamental necessity.