Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by tub0rg

i think you are all missing the point.

you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree.

of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.

 

It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.

You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.

 theres lots of  ways to express progression:

- Level .  I am level 70 bloodmage.

- Gear.    Hat of +1 damage.

- Exploration.  Visiting "Omgzobal" unlock the teleporter to that town.

- Stance to a faction.  "The wolfpeople love's me, and sell me stuff for 0.3 % the real price. The lizardmen hate's me".

- Skill vs Mob/Technology.  I am 30% faster at killing wolfs. I am 10% faster at mining.

- Balance basic stats.   The blood pact with Satanul make my character  -10 Str, -5 Chr, but  +20 Int, +5 Wis.

- Unlocking more pool points to configure e a char.   I have 12 Planetside Battlepoints, this mean I can use the invisible gear, and the engineer gear (to place mines).  With 13 points I can fly wisp and with 14 I can also drive tanks.  To drive tanks I only need 1 point, but is now consumed to be able to use invisible gear.  ( note this system is somewhat complex, but natural, and don't make people any better than others).

  - Vehicle skills.   (eve style:  I have frigates 3 and lazers 2, this mean I can drive a peragus minin-ninja-spy ship. )

Theres a infinite type of systems.   Today games only use 1 main (levels) and a few secondarys (unlocking teleportters) but the game could use different standards. And the level one as basic is just bad.

I'll keep this short because I'm posting on an iPhone, but: No, no, no and NO! If you want no levels and stats and instant gratification, go and play an FPS. It's your kind that are hurting MMOs today. I like how you use WoW as an example too, which is probably the easiest crap I've ever played. Took me just over a couple weeks to hit max lvl, and under a week to deck my character out ready to begin raiding.

If you want it easier than that, honestly, please step back and re-consider the genre of game you enjoy.

Originally posted by Adam1902

I'll keep this short because I'm posting on an iPhone, but: No, no, no and NO! If you want no levels and stats and instant gratification, go and play an FPS.

TeamFortress 2 has added "random loot" and "levels".   There are better versions of the weapons that are unlock with a number of achievements.

Battlefield 2, and BF2142 also use that system.

Other systems also use that idea of progression.

So If you don't like levels and grinding and progression, you are not safe playing FPS games of today  ( :

Another reason I often prefer games without levels is that they are more likely to make me feel like a protagonist.  I like to make interesting decisions about what my character would like to achieve next.  Obviously, all games allow this to a greater or lesser degree, but there is a tendency in some leveling games for the obvious answer to be "hit the next level".

I think that Guild Wars handled this particularly well by having a very low level cap (20).  There are no more levels to chase and your character tends to end up on self-imposed quests for the most exotic skills and items.

EVE eliminated levels altogether and it gives the game enormous freedom.  Your character is always self-directed.  I'd love to see the philosophy applied in a game in which the PC isn't a spaceship.

In World of Warcraft and CoX, games that rely heavily on levels, I never felt like my characters had much agency.  Perhaps that is because I was playing the games wrong since I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either.  Still, I didn't seem to be making many choices about what I was going to do.  My next goal was almost always "hit the next level".

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by tub0rg

i think you are all missing the point.

you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree.

of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.

 

It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.

 

You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.

 On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.

Originally posted by MudHekket

Another reason I often prefer games without levels is that they are more likely to make me feel like a protagonist.  I like to make interesting decisions about what my character would like to achieve next.  Obviously, all games allow this to a greater or lesser degree, but there is a tendency in some leveling games for the obvious answer to be "hit the next level".

I think that Guild Wars handled this particularly well by having a very low level cap (20).  There are no more levels to chase and your character tends to end up on self-imposed quests for the most exotic skills and items.

EVE eliminated levels altogether and it gives the game enormous freedom.  Your character is always self-directed.  I'd love to see the philosophy applied in a game in which the PC isn't a spaceship.

In World of Warcraft and CoX, games that rely heavily on levels, I never felt like my characters had much agency.  Perhaps that is because I was playing the games wrong since I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either.  Still, I didn't seem to be making many choices about what I was going to do.  My next goal was almost always "hit the next level".

 

Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.

OP, all I have to say to you is to go find a genre you like... Obviously MMORPG's aren't for you.

RPG = Progression.

Yet another reason I would prefer games without levels is that I like to make a lot of alts.  Variety is the spice of life.  If I'm going to play in a fantasy game, I'm going to want to try out the elementalist, the necromancer, the ranger, the rogue, the warrior and anything else that looks interesting.  In the leveling games I have played, all my alts have to move through more or less the same locations fighting more or less the same sorts of foe, since where you can go is determined by what level character you are.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.

Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels.  Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat.  In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is.  It all depends on what the ship is designed to do.  My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship.  EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want. 

I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind.  Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.

Originally posted by MudHekket

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Instead of "levels" you have ships. And instead of grinding for XP to gain levels, you grind for money to buy ships.

 

Yes, but ships aren't rated by single criteria like character levels.  Characters of the same level are generally supposed to be more or less as effective in combat.  In EVE, there is no such single ranking for how good a ship is.  It all depends on what the ship is designed to do.  My "high-level" mining ship is going to be worse off in a combat than a "low-level" combat ship.  EVE thus gives me a lot of freedom to do what I want. 

I agree with you that EVE goesn't get rid of grind.  Guild Wars did pretty well on that front.

Combat levels, vs crafting levels. I am level 50. I have Armor crafting skills at level fifty.

Mining ship vs combat ship. Same difference, since characters, even in a leveling game, aren't rated by a single criteria where the game implements crafting.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by tub0rg

i think you are all missing the point.

you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree.

of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.

 

It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.

 

You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.

 On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.

I don't see anything "artifical" about the divide. Just like a General is more advanced than a Private. A Jet pilot is more advanced than a person taking their first flying lesson. A Black Belt is more advanced than a White belt in Karate, etc., etc.

I don't expect the Private to fight side by side with the General, I don't expect the person with one flight less to fly with the Jet Pilots, I don't expect the White Belt to fight the Black Belt.

Progression and segregation are quite natural, not artificial.

The issue with levels in many games is that the game never really becomes more difficult, when im level 1, I fight a level 1 boar, when Im level 20, I fight a level 20 boar etc...both are just as hard for me to kill at the time and give me an amount of loot that I need at that time...sure later there are raids/bosses in some games, but if you made a raid dungeon for level 1 people it would be no more/less difficult than a level 1000 raid being done by level 1000's...anyway you get the idea.  Just seems a bit pointless..I just killed the blue butterflies in area one, now i have leveled up I can kill the Level 2 green butterflies...

I think form a PvE perspective a game should get more difficult as you go, not just scale up evenly as you level and then give you the same monster with a  different name tag and an extra 100 hit points.  You should need to apply some of the actual skills you have learned as a player to overcome the game later on, not just equip your glowing sword and other Phat loot and then hack at whatever it is you are meant to kill and bring it down in the standard 18 seconds using the exact same combo you used at the beginning of the game (I know it sounds like I am referring to wow (and I am) but there are a heap of other games out there that do this).

I dont mind levels but not when they are a pointless attempt to give you a false sense of progression.

Originally posted by A5tro

The issue with levels in many games is that the game never really becomes more difficult, when im level 1, I fight a level 1 boar, when Im level 20, I fight a level 20 boar etc...both are just as hard for me to kill at the time and give me an amount of loot that I need at that time...sure later there are raids/bosses in some games, but if you made a raid dungeon for level 1 people it would be no more/less difficult than a level 1000 raid being done by level 1000's...anyway you get the idea.  Just seems a bit pointless..I just killed the blue butterflies in area one, now i have leveled up I can kill the Level 2 green butterflies...

I think form a PvE perspective a game should get more difficult as you go, not just scale up evenly as you level and then give you the same monster with a  different name tag and an extra 100 hit points.  You should need to apply some of the actual skills you have learned as a player to overcome the game later on, not just equip your glowing sword and other Phat loot and then hack at whatever it is you are meant to kill and bring it down in the standard 18 seconds using the exact same combo you used at the beginning of the game (I know it sounds like I am referring to wow (and I am) but there are a heap of other games out there that do this).

I dont mind levels but not when they are a pointless attempt to give you a false sense of progression.

The progression is not false, it is very real. You are expressing dissatisfaction with the art department it sounds like, rather than the game design.

I understand a blue butterfly doesn't seem like it should be inherently more powerful than a green butterfly. But this is a result of budget, and using a cheap fix, changing colors, to ad more mobs.

But you can go back and kill the blue butterflys with one wack, where they used to kill you, so it is real progression, even if the art work doesn't indicate it very well.

Leveling is part of the fun. A game without levels could be fun but then it wouldnt be a mmorpg, it would be a mmog. It can be fun but we are talking, in that case, about a diferent type of game. If you really dont like leveling, in my opinion, you dont like mmorpgs it's like wanting a cheeseburger without the meat, sure you can eat it, but it will not be a cheesebuger.

Yet a few more reaons why level systems need to go by  the wayside for a while. 

When you play with your guildies and you/they outlevel you.  You can not play with your guildies anymore since you/they have outleveled the content you are at.  The only mmo I know that seemed to remedy this was City of Heroes/Villains where you can malefactor up/down.  

What I would like to call easy mode for developers is the tiered content that wraps around the leveling system.  Where a wolf at level 1 is not a wolf at level 11.   At any point in the game based on your level a developer knows exactly where you are going to be.   This is the theme park as they like to call it as they can develop content as the players level.  "Add more rides."  It provides a highly controlled environment for the developers to work in.   For the players it equals a highly restrictive environment. 

What I like to call the diablolization for an MMO.  The item/level grind, Item Randomization on drops, etc.  WoW is blizzard's realization that Diablo could be turned into an MMO. 

These are the reasons why I think that MMO's that try to follow blizzard's lead ussually have a shelf life of like 3 1/2 months before they reach a plateau.  Nothing will be as great as the original.   People lose interest fairly quickly. 

For my taste, drop me in a world and let me and my guildies make a name for ourselves.  I think community, pvp, being your own hero/villain, making enemies/friends, watching cities get built and destroyed is far better than the theme park mmo's where you tire from the same old rides over and over and over again.   

Your assumptions are kind of ridiculous.  You say WoW is an MMO where people can catch up because of new servers? Yeah, right.  

It has nothing to do with new servers.  People can catch up in WoW because the game is so easy even a moron could level to 80.  Just follow a series of quests for a week or 2 and you are caught up.  And they start DKs at 55, lmao.  The only reason behind that is they didn't want to have to add quests for DK's 1-55 or whatever.  

So you want everyone to have access to a same level character? I don't like that idea at all.  I don't want some moron who can't play their class properly to have the same level character as me.  In real fucking MMOs, like EQ, if you're retarded at playing a certain class you can't level it well.  If you were a cleric and couldn't heal, good luck getting a group.  Do you think I want that kind of player to have access to the same level cleric as me? 

WoW sucks in that it lets newbies catch up too easily.  The thing with WoW is that anyone can have any level 80 they want because the leveling system and game are both trivial.  So the horrible players who suck at playing their character have no problem at getting 80 and going on raids & gearing up.  I think people who suck at one class should find something their good at.  If you get rid of leveling systems, you'll see a lot of newbies playing classes they can't clearly handle.  

Leveling systems let you distinguish between garbage players and good players. 

You act like WoW is a great success because of new servers.  Well, most of WoW is leveling content you know.  Anyway, in a game like WoW i think the leveling system is pointless because it consists of "Do quest A, do quest B", it's handholding and trivial.  Anyone can get to 80, so the leveling system is pointless in WoW.

I can see why a WoW player would not see the point of a leveling system because of all this, but in EQ where leveling is actually challenging it has a good reason.

Random looting systems, yeah I want an asian following me around with add-ons and eating loot from my kills.  Great idea, your opinons are clearly valid.  I mean, especially the type of game like Diablo where you have to run back to town to go hostile on another player.  But yeah imagine random looting in EQ, you can't even attack the player if you aren't on a PvP server.  That's a brilliant idea, I mean i'd love not being able to kill someone who is taking all my loot and following me.

Anyway,  imagine WoW without a leveling system.  People would have nothing to do in that game because it sucks.  The endgame is just farming the same instances over and over, which is boring after the first time.  The PvP system is boring and pointless because all of the PvP in WoW is inside protected carebear instances.  If you got rid of the leveling system in WoW a lot less people would play it.

Obviously, getting rid of the leveling system would reduce the player populations because they'd realize quicker that the game is boring.  Anyone who backs WoW is someone who hasn't played and beaten the endgame.  Once they're there they realize how bad it is.

Think of it this way.  Newbies will be stuck leveling, hardcore players will plow through leveling and some will quit.

But with no leveling system, everyone can realize it sucks from day 1. I guess it might work in a game like EQ where a brain is required to play, and there is fun stuff to do at the max level.  But not WoW where there is nothing to do.

If you mean the end of any kind of advancement be it levels, skills or gear then absolutely NO! And it would not be popular. The reason people play MMOs generally is to develop their character.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.

Explain how levels didnt work in DnD? How do levels create disparity in a game that is custom tailored to the party availible?What community is there in a 6 person gaming group?

Originally posted by happyiksar

Your assumptions are kind of ridiculous.  You say WoW is an MMO where people can catch up because of new servers? Yeah, right.  

It has nothing to do with new servers.  People can catch up in WoW because the game is so easy even a moron could level to 80.  Just follow a series of quests for a week or 2 and you are caught up.  And they start DKs at 55, lmao.  The only reason behind that is they didn't want to have to add quests for DK's 1-55 or whatever.  

So you want everyone to have access to a same level character? I don't like that idea at all.  I don't want some moron who can't play their class properly to have the same level character as me.  In real fucking MMOs, like EQ, if you're retarded at playing a certain class you can't level it well.  If you were a cleric and couldn't heal, good luck getting a group.  Do you think I want that kind of player to have access to the same level cleric as me? 

WoW sucks in that it lets newbies catch up too easily.  The thing with WoW is that anyone can have any level 80 they want because the leveling system and game are both trivial.  So the horrible players who suck at playing their character have no problem at getting 80 and going on raids & gearing up.  I think people who suck at one class should find something their good at.  If you get rid of leveling systems, you'll see a lot of newbies playing classes they can't clearly handle.  

Leveling systems let you distinguish between garbage players and good players. 

You act like WoW is a great success because of new servers.  Well, most of WoW is leveling content you know.  Anyway, in a game like WoW i think the leveling system is pointless because it consists of "Do quest A, do quest B", it's handholding and trivial.  Anyone can get to 80, so the leveling system is pointless in WoW.

I can see why a WoW player would not see the point of a leveling system because of all this, but in EQ where leveling is actually challenging it has a good reason.

Random looting systems, yeah I want an asian following me around with add-ons and eating loot from my kills.  Great idea, your opinons are clearly valid.  I mean, especially the type of game like Diablo where you have to run back to town to go hostile on another player.  But yeah imagine random looting in EQ, you can't even attack the player if you aren't on a PvP server.  That's a brilliant idea, I mean i'd love not being able to kill someone who is taking all my loot and following me.

 

Anyway,  imagine WoW without a leveling system.  People would have nothing to do in that game because it sucks.  The endgame is just farming the same instances over and over, which is boring after the first time.  The PvP system is boring and pointless because all of the PvP in WoW is inside protected carebear instances.  If you got rid of the leveling system in WoW a lot less people would play it.

Obviously, getting rid of the leveling system would reduce the player populations because they'd realize quicker that the game is boring.  Anyone who backs WoW is someone who hasn't played and beaten the endgame.  Once they're there they realize how bad it is.

Think of it this way.  Newbies will be stuck leveling, hardcore players will plow through leveling and some will quit.

But with no leveling system, everyone can realize it sucks from day 1. I guess it might work in a game like EQ where a brain is required to play, and there is fun stuff to do at the max level.  But not WoW where there is nothing to do.

Do you grind your teeth a lot when you play?