I wanted to make this poll so I could see what others think. 

I think MMO games should end leveling, I am going to write three reasons. Each reason has a opening statement in BOLD, a

explanation in underlined font.  I do this so even those just browsing the post can quickly jump right in.

1. Leveling systems reduce player populations -  I think that when someone buys a MMO these days they have a good idea what they want to do in that game. PVP, PVE, Crafting, or socializing. People buy MMO games wanting to engage in a activity that is part of the game. However many games prevent you from doing what you want in a game right away by introducing an imaginary level system, with countless quests that have nothing or little to do with the actual storyline. Until you finish this imaginary system of quests you are usualy prevented from engaging the the activity you bought the game for, or engaging in it in any meaningful way.   People need to be able to play the game from day one, and stand a chance in a pvp eviroment if friends already part of the game are willing to donate gear to them. 

                      One of the biggest reasons players do not play an  "OLD" mmo game is the inability to ever catch up                            

                      I bealive wow is successful not because of gameplay, or graphics, or quests. Certainly not because of raiding pvp or leveling system.  WoW is successful because if your server  *SUCKZORS* or you are a *NEWB*  every few months wow releases BRAND NEW SERVERS so players can play on an even playing field.   To prove my point if you played wow how many times have you *re-Rolled* to get a fresh start. Its not as good as no leveling system, but it certainly is the next best thing. So long as your game keeps getting new players to join vetrans on said servers.------------------------

2. LEVELING SYSTEMS CREATE TOO MANY SERVERS - Servers  tend to be so populated in the first days of an MMO that the game has no choice but to open more servers. Despite knowing that in the end many of them will be low population. Starting areas, or main cities are filled with players, that in just a few weeks will be spread across the world. However the game won't run, thus to have a good launch a game MUST make more servers available.  I am going to point to the two MASSIVE budget MMO games last year,  AOC and WAR.  Lets be honest. The questing system and leveling system was bad, but what was worse was they made several times more servers then are actualy needed. This lead to extremly low populations that drove people to quit, simply making the problem worse.  Also if new servers are not constantly rolling out players who feel they are soooooo far behind they can not possibly catch up may not even bother.  Who after all wants to play a game where you are not even seen as an asset to a guild until your leveling is completed?

Every single MMO game has dead servers. No one wants to spend 2 months grinding to the end, only to find no one is there with you.

3. LEVELING SYSTEMS REDUCE CONTENT -    The cold hard fact is, 90% of a MMO shiped content at launch is leveling content. Leaving very little for players to do. As much fun as the quests may be, players do not want to do something just so they can do something else. Thus I am willing to be the average player skips well 90% of the lower level content.  When you can get level 15 grinding for 3 hrs in a game, or spending 12 hours questing. Most players would simple rather mix the two. Skipping alot of time comsuming content along the way.  Rewards for quest  mid and low level are useless, the art departments time is wasted, the writers time is wasted, animators, ext. But most of all the players time is wasted. The time they could have spent enjoying those quests had levels not been an issue, end up being spent jumping around player cities 2 months latter when they are waiting for something to do. Or simply wishing there was something to do.  

When a game has 20 instances, but only 4 are endgame. That game has 4 instances. It does not have 20. Those other 16 dungeons, half are never played because of location, or poor thought to level placement. The other half are usualy used to grind or exploit xp. Rewards are tossed away or vendored within a few days, with only a few choice rewards desired from any of the instances.

Please post your thoughts.  But try and stick to this format so people can easily pick and choose what to read. No one is going

to read.  A GIANT WALL OF TEXT CRIT OF 9000, but they just might read some of it.

PS.

quick list of top 3 things I want to see in an mmo.

1. diablo looting system. (random)

2. SWG style - Harvesting / crafting system

3. Sand Box world.

I agree with the OP. My first MMO was Ultima ONline, second that I really got into was SWG-pre NGE. Both games were skill based games. Since then I really haven't found a MMO I really enjoy.

Skill based games, at least you can jump in with friends at any time...reguardless of what their skills are compared to your own. This IMO is where the fun is. You aren't left behind from your friends/ guildmates. And along the way I found I made many more friends of varying skill levels and experience with the game. There usually was few empty areas, as anybody could be anywhere.

Leveling based I always felt left behind...or hated leaving friends behind cause they lvled slower than me. People tend to stick with their own level groups, to get to the next level faster. I feel this spreads the community out thinner, and makes people less sociable cause they tend to stick with a smaller group of friends. And after a couple years, newbie areas/ lower level areas become less active. While the higher level areas become more populated.

This is just my opinion of course. I image those that started out in a level based game, may always enjoy that type of game style. But those of us that started in a game like UO, with skills...will probibly always preffer that type of playstyle. And I will always feel skill based system is much better.

Here's the blog article I wrote on the topic. Vajuras links to his blog in the comments, and that blog in turn links to Tobold's writings on it all.

The gist of my article is that levels stratify a population such that its members cannot interact with each other. It is a crippling limitation in a massively multiplayer environment. Levels are a personal achievement that motivates players to pursue their own agendas. Games with group achievements (such as EVE Online's potential for galactic domination) motivate players to pursue community agendas. Levels have no place in a multiplayer setting.

Your complaints against levels run a bit counter to my own intuitions and reasoning.

Leveling systems don't reduce player populations, but they sure do stratify them. It is the stratification that is the number one flaw to the use of leveling. Player characters fall behind and the player loses his social group. Player characters race ahead and again lose the original social group. Meet someone at random who is not the right level and again, you are simply not in the same social group.

Leveling systems don't result in large server populations. Marketing hype produces that. Hype on day one draws a big crowd, then the crowd fades when they find that the game isn't The Next Big Thing, leaving a bunch of servers at half population. That would be a problem with or without levels.

Leveling systems do not reduce content. Leveling systems ARE content. If you don't like that content, that's your business. I don't like it either, but it's definitely content. It is the backbone of the game structure.

Leveling systems don't reduce player population. They also have nothing to do with the number of servers.

Some people like level-based MMOs, others like skill-based MMOs. I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

Why the absolutes?

We should have both. There is no reason why multiple options shouldn't exist. I find it lame to suggest level system be taken out of the MMO genre completely as if those that hate them has more rights to their prefered playstyle over the rest of us.

      I think the OP has a valid argument against leveling, but I happen to like the leveling system.......Every game i played that has not had a leveling system I have become bored very quickly........Also with all the FPS games around if I dont want to play a game with levels there are plenty of other options......

         When I play a MMO I always like to have a goal and the majority of the time that goal is to level and develop my character......  When I played UO the only goals i really had were to have a nice house....once I built my house and got it the way I wanted I had little desire to play anymore......I think a big reason why alot of these games have leveling is that it keeps players subscribed longer......If they just make everyone max level they know that most of the time players will get bored quickly and leave (and the company doesnt make much money that way)......While games like EQ and WoW might not suffer as much from no leveling, but can you imagine how poorly games like loTRO and WAR would do if they were just the end game only???......

       Also I sure as heck dont want to see a Diablo type looting system.....There were players in D2 that had programs that would auto loot any drop....They never fought anything and just stood near Diablo and the second he died they had all his loot before any of the other players could even move.....I thought the Diablo system was the worst loot system I had ever seen by a long shot.......I didnt play SWG so I dont know about the crafting/harvesting though I heard it was pretty good.......Sandbox world?? Everyone is still trying to figure out what that means exactly and in case you hadnt noticed it isnt all that popular except for the minority diehards that want it........

But there still has to be a way to separate a player like me (the one with big glowy weapons and huge armor) compared to everyone else (peons in ragged tunics). I did love preNGE SWG though... =\ I miss it...

Yes other.

I think there is better and more realistic ways of handling how a character grows and get more experience then levels.

And the levelcaps tend to make things boring a while after you reach it.

I want a game following Runequest/Basic roleplaying style instead. You will get a lot better in all ways but youll get few if any extra hit points, you just get better to fight, parry and dodge. A skillbased game would be great, and Im not talking about the system darkfall uses but if you ever played any of the classic Runequest, Call of Cthulu or Delta green you know what im talking about (not the crappy D20 C&C or DG).

Level based games are not bad but there should be a few more realistic MMOs around. And just because a game dont have levels doesn't mean that you can beat up end game mobs wih a new character but it will be easier of mixing a group with characters that havn't played about the same amount of time.

Originally posted by bobbler

But there still has to be a way to separate a player like me (the one with big glowy weapons and huge armor) compared to everyone else (peons in ragged tunics). I did love preNGE SWG though... =\ I miss it...

There are several ways to waggle an ePeen in skill-based MMOs. In UO, for example:

- your house can be a 'trophy case' of rares and powerful items you collected

- artifiacts and other visibly different powerful items are available

- titles

Lack of levels does not necessarily mean the lack of individuality or lack of disparity.

Originally posted by Theocritus

         When I play a MMO I always like to have a goal and the majority of the time that goal is to level and develop my character...... 

Uhm, levels are just one way of easily dealing with experience as fast and simple as possible.

When they invented them in D&D it was by 2 boardgame/wargame geeks that first change their WW2 figures to a fantasy dungeon and then wanted to keep the characters and make them become better. They didn't go for any realism, just fast gameplay and so little as possible to record.

But today the computer is handling the recording of what you do so it isn't really needed a fast system. Many later pen and paper games have no levels like C&C, Shadowrun, Amber, Vampire, Gurps and many many more.

You will still get better the more you play, but the difference between a new character and one who played a lot is not as much as in Wow. It is still big but you wont be able to kill a 100 noobs at the same time without breaking a sweat. You might beat 5 or even 10 inexperienced players if you have good gear and a good char and you will easily kill mobs that would eat a noob for breakfast.

Also rabbits and badgers wont kill a middle experienced character, and you can hopefully see how dangerous something is by looking on it. Goblin = Easy kill. Dragon = Say your prayers unless you are really good.

Explain to me how "skill" based games are any different then level based games?
You are skill leveling in a way.
Just you level by raising skills by using them.
Or take Eve.. real time training... it's still a from a leveling, cause you can't do things until reach a certain level training.

Truth be told I am tired of leveling...
I rather see a game where you have no levels of any kind
You progressive character by buying training, getting skills from quests, or finding magical items with special abilities.
Instead we get this go whack tree to raise your 2 handed sword skill, to unlock an ability

I like games with levels. I like games without levels.

The issue isn't levels or skills...the issue is simple: are the game mechanics fun and do I enjoy the game?

I can and have and will enjoy both types.

1. I agree to some extent. Extreme example would be Eve but other games are far better in adressing this unless they are a huge grindfest like L2 etc.

2. Yes I especially agree that WAR's servers were too small for that kind of fragmented population.

3. True. Some of it - most of it is filling to make the player spend more time and pay more. It is good to have a some sort of tutorial type of campaign, though.

If you really REALLY, want to get rid of levels. There would be no skill levels EITHER. Either you grind for skill level or character level - they are all the same! They are equally bad. All crafters should be able to craft everything given the resources. No level requirements for anything!

That would then require either having gear to get the edge OR actually having a good player-skill based combat system in the game. I like the latter... With a good rock-paper-scrissors to liven things up. I could play this game. Yeah... why not?

Well I choose no because I enjoy leveling.

I always play role playing games, so its part of really making your character who he/she is.

It's like when you play on the ptr on Wow and they have premades available, it is full of players who don't know what they are doing, they logged in with a full spellbook and splattered them on the actionbars in any order and run into the pvp areas and get smashed.

Imagine buying a new mmo and having that happen?

Imagine all the people who would simply reroll flavor of the month class and instantly be max level, and if a new set of items just got released, the new character would be on par with some other geezers char who he played for months.

Also you won't get to experience different tiers of the game - where you play with other people at the same 'difficulty' as you. You would all just be thrown into the same bowl and mixed together into a big noob soup.

And I totally agree that Blizzard opening brand new realms is fantastic, because yeah you do sometimes want to start again but don't want to be put off by being a starting area loner.

There are more reasons I'm sure..

Level grind is over-exaggerated. If we didn't grind for levels we would be grinding for character stats,skills or something else. Some like the idea of levels because it gives them something to do and there are some who do not like levels at all. To me the only reason most devs put level grind in their mmos is because they want to keep that monthly fee going and like most of us, we fall for it all the time.

Leveling or skill based systems are an absolute necessity in an mmorpg. First of all, if you do not want to spend time increasing your characters skills whether it leveling or skill based system, you are in the wrong genre. The main purpose of an MMORPG is to play along with other players and achieve different goals. Whether the goal to be PvE or PvE. Second if you you did away with leveling or skilling, nearly every player would absolutely suck. Generally, by the time a player is the max level or max skill, they are competent players that can handle different end game scenerios thrown out at them. Leveling essentially acts as a tutorial for your character and its abilities so that when you reach end game, your character is geared up and ready to roll. If you are not into leveling, perhaps an fps is a game more suited for you.

I agree with the OP, but i disagree wih his poll. We dont need to make mmos ezmode, but to break these barriers  and stupid linear design that is a waste.  The proposed solucion, making mmos ezmode, is another  disease. 

Leveling keeps you interested in a game and gives you a longer range goal as well as having pride and an attachment to the character you create

 Most importantly it helps ween out the immature "wienie" players who want to be max level in a week without putting fort any effort and having everything handed to them.These are typically the people that ruin a good game on average,instead of people who really do enjoy playing the game as well as the social aspect of it.

 I actually think it should take years to reach max level if you can reach it at all but I dont believe in macro's.

Originally posted by lornphoenix

Explain to me how "skill" based games are any different then level based games?

Skill based MMOs have much less level disparity than level-based MMOs. A person that doesn't play UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates, etc as much as the rest of his guild doesn't end up 'left behind'. Some MMOs have a bandaid for that like EQ2's mentor system or COx's sidekicks, which goes a long way towards breaking down the barrier that levels inherently create. Levels are also usually done in conjunction with class-restriction, which is both good and bad, but the pros and cons of that are more the issue of class restrictions and not so much about levels.

Originally posted by Scubie67

 

Leveling keeps you interested in a game and gives you a longer range goal as well as having pride and an attachment to the character you create

 Most importantly it helps ween out the immature "wienie" players who want to be max level in a week without putting fort any effort and having everything handed to them.These are typically the people that ruin a good game on average,instead of people who really do enjoy playing the game as well as the social aspect of it.

 I actually think it should take years to reach max level if you can reach it at all but I dont believe in macro's.

Max level in a week?  Once a themepark MMO has been out more than a year, most MMOs add so many ways for you to level faster and speed through to get to the endgame content where max level in a week is easy.  Having pride in a character for being high level is laughable.  Level does not equal skill.  Play a skill based game where it requires more logic than priest vs. rogue = dead priest.