I tend to agree with the people who are not interested in being told a story or playing through storyline quests. The only story I am interested in when I play a game is the story of my character in that world.

I liked that EQ was originally 'NeverQuest' -- there were quests, but that wasn't the biggest part of gameplay. You did them for faction, items or later, for zone access, but they weren't a major component of getting experience or even gear. Newer stuff (Secrets of Faydwer in particular)  has had more quest-oriented content, but it's still mostly stuff you can either do while in a regular exp group or can do quickly before getting down to the business of pursuing your other goals of the day, in my experience. You may have chosen to play differently, which is my point-- it's all choice.

I might have been killing 10 rats, but unless I was desperate for faction or the trinket from that, I could skip it. Those little quests were mostly a waste of my playtime in terms of achievement. I might have spent forever getting a key to Veeshan's Peak (I hate you, "pained soul"! I hate you forever!) or to Vex Thal, but once you do that, you don't have to do it again for that character, and even having done it was a mark of achievement in itself when that content was current. (Nowadays, most old keyed zones are open to everyoneof appropriate level anyway.) 

When I played WoW, it became really clear, really quickly, that quests were the most efficient way to progress. I felt like I was on a mandatory quest conveyor belt that took me from one set of quests to another as I levelled up. I hated it. Grinding away at quests is not necessarily better than a straight up kill-for-exp grind, and can be worse if you're not getting together with other people and being social over it.

EQ2 had it's share of typical quests, and then some other ones that really got me interested in the story related to the quests, which is really something, since I'm not usually into any of that stuff. On the other hand, as with WoW, I felt like a slave to my quest log.

Do we need better quests or just more interesting worlds to play in? Depends on your play style. If you're a gamer interested in the game (as separate from roleplaying or the virtual world), better quests might make you happy. If you're just interested in racking up levels, gear, and other marks of achievement, you might go either way. If you're interested in suspending disbelief and having the freedom to set your own goals and write your own story, then maybe better quests are the least of your worries.

Originally posted by olddaddy

Originally posted by Greenneutron

I don't really have anything insightful that hasn't been said already.  The rats were just too cute to not comment on though hehe.

 

Those rats are us, the player base.

The developer drops a piece of cheese somewhere within the maze of the game, then watches as we madly scramble around trying to quickly get to the piece of cheese.

Then we start complaining because, as we get close to the piece of cheese, they haven't put in any more walls to the maze.

We feel cheated because the piece of cheese is left out in the open, with no more "content" around it.

But we still feel "uber leet" because we got there fast.

Then we move on to the next game to do it all over again......

 

 

This is why I play games that don't make Quests a main focus in character advancement.

Why would I want to run quests if all of them have two line descriptions and basically make me to the same shit over and over?

Give me my freedom let me make my own content and leave those lame quests in as an optional way to make cash.

If you want to keep quests feeling like Jobs then stop making them the focus of a game!

I appreciate when the writers interject some humor into the writing.  It helps to make those basic newbie quests more fun.

After you've played a few mmo's, the quest system begins to feel like a treadmill.  Quests are task oriented.  Do this.  Do that.  Not everyone in the game is on the same page so atleast for me I end up running around on my own, especially where chain quests are involved.  And then when I do get in a group, everyone is somehow a speed reader.  I can read 80 pages an hour in real life when reading novels, but people I end up grouping with have can glance at a few paragraphs in 2 or 3 seconds and be done.  It makes me feel rushed, and I don't like to be rushed.  I'm trying to relax and have a good time...

I wish they would just let us enjoy the game by letting us be self directed, doing what we want to do.  That is true freedom.  Instead of having to do quests to get nice items, there should be a chance that those items or similar will drop from mobs.  A good chance not a rare one. 

I think the most fun I had in an MMORPG was Ragnarok Online when it first came out in the Beta. Why? There was so much interraction between players and the GMs. We didn't get free items or anything of the sort, but you would be able to walk through the main towns and SEE GMs sitting around talking to people. And if they got bored, well hopefully you weren't a merchant advertising your wares, because hell would break lose as they would summon TONs of bosses into the towns. It was so much entertainment, even as a low level, to fight these big bosses that the whole town would have to fight to take down.

I haven't really had any gaming experiences similar to that, ever. I understand GMs not wanting to be around their players in some settings.. but never? Seems a little cold shoulder to me.

Originally posted by Terranah

I appreciate when the writers interject some humor into the writing.  It helps to make those basic newbie quests more fun.

 

After you've played a few mmo's, the quest system begins to feel like a treadmill.  Quests are task oriented.  Do this.  Do that.  Not everyone in the game is on the same page so atleast for me I end up running around on my own, especially where chain quests are involved.  And then when I do get in a group, everyone is somehow a speed reader.  I can read 80 pages an hour in real life when reading novels, but people I end up grouping with have can glance at a few paragraphs in 2 or 3 seconds and be done.  It makes me feel rushed, and I don't like to be rushed.  I'm trying to relax and have a good time...

 

I wish they would just let us enjoy the game by letting us be self directed, doing what we want to do.  That is true freedom.  Instead of having to do quests to get nice items, there should be a chance that those items or similar will drop from mobs.  A good chance not a rare one. 

 

 

This is one of the main reasons why I solo in every mmo I play. If the team skips the quest text, then I have to if I wanna keep up. Then, if it's a quest I haven't done before, I wont have any clue what's going on. That lessens my fun.
 

Originally posted by DefB

I liked this one a lot. Mainly cause it's something I've always been curious about. I mean, kill 10 rats was fun when EQ did it. *pats Scruffy* But seeing another kill 10 rats quest these days is probably what makes myself, and a lot of people, skip quest text in general.

 MMO: "Kill 10 rats."

Me: "Ah, so that's your delivery? Cool. I'll stop paying attention." [insert quest text skipping and powerleveling mentality... right about now]

You bring up a good point.  I found myself doing this exact thing in LoTRO, and I hadn't thought about my behavior until I read your post.  What I have done routinely, now that I think about it, is skip to the bottom of the dialogue to glance at the requirements.  When I see that it's another "kill 10 boars" I completely ignore the paragraphs of text and dash off.

A darn good point there DefB.  My feeling is, "Why should I waste my time reading all of that?"  Not because I don't like story - quite the opposite! - but because it's just another brain dead counting game.  If they took the time to make the mechanics interesting then I would definitely take the time to read the dialogue.

As far as skipping text is concerned, there's also the issue of paragraphs of text on a quest NPC in the middle of a dungeon.  If you're with a group then it's not like you can expect the group to wait for you to read the dialogue, ya know?

Originally posted by Mysk

Originally posted by DefB

I liked this one a lot. Mainly cause it's something I've always been curious about. I mean, kill 10 rats was fun when EQ did it. *pats Scruffy* But seeing another kill 10 rats quest these days is probably what makes myself, and a lot of people, skip quest text in general.

 MMO: "Kill 10 rats."

Me: "Ah, so that's your delivery? Cool. I'll stop paying attention." [insert quest text skipping and powerleveling mentality... right about now]

 

You bring up a good point.  I found myself doing this exact thing in LoTRO, and I hadn't thought about my behavior until I read your post.  What I have done routinely, now that I think about it, is skip to the bottom of the dialogue to glance at the requirements.  When I see that it's another "kill 10 boars" I completely ignore the paragraphs of text and dash off.

A darn good point there DefB.  My feeling is, "Why should I waste my time reading all of that?"  Not because I don't like story - quite the opposite! - but because it's just another brain dead counting game.  If they took the time to make the mechanics interesting then I would definitely take the time to read the dialogue.

As far as skipping text is concerned, there's also the issue of paragraphs of text on a quest NPC in the middle of a dungeon.  If you're with a group then it's not like you can expect the group to wait for you to read the dialogue, ya know?

That's why I solo.

I love quests   why is this artilcle  being soo  rude  about quest

Yet another "it's the players fault" so-called article by what's-her-name.

Imagine a game where your actions effect the outcome.  If you do not know what to do during a mission you might kill 10 rats and get ingredients to cook them......  and get a minor reward for doing so.  But maybe what the person really wanted was for you to kill 10 guild rats ( slang for childeren in street gangs ).  Obviously both would be correct..... right?

Star Wars: The Old Republic,.  If it is anything like the KOTOR series RPG games,  You better bealive skipping walls of text and just clicking to reward will cost you :-p.

Originally posted by Mysk 

As far as skipping text is concerned, there's also the issue of paragraphs of text on a quest NPC in the middle of a dungeon.  If you're with a group then it's not like you can expect the group to wait for you to read the dialogue, ya know?

This is exactly why I thought DDO would be so good, and why it was so disappointing to me.  I thought we would end up with groups who, as though we were running on a tabletop, would be interested in story and framing for each scenario.  Instead, the instances became speed challenges...

*sigh*

Shava

Originally posted by shava

Originally posted by Mysk 

As far as skipping text is concerned, there's also the issue of paragraphs of text on a quest NPC in the middle of a dungeon.  If you're with a group then it's not like you can expect the group to wait for you to read the dialogue, ya know?

 

This is exactly why I thought DDO would be so good, and why it was so disappointing to me.  I thought we would end up with groups who, as though we were running on a tabletop, would be interested in story and framing for each scenario.  Instead, the instances became speed challenges...

 

*sigh*

Shava

Yeah, "speed challenges" are fine once in a while if it's something for the story. [Pull the 3 levers within 20 minutes or the dam will flood.] But it's not okay for every adventure. That "Timed Mission" stuff should really only be in racing games, in my opinion.

Originally posted by arctarus

Quest grind, kill this kill that, weapons grind, spells grind.... Whether its level base or not you will always have grind, just different forms. 

What bothers me most about quest grind is that my choice of quest tends to have no particular relation to my character's goals.  I tend not to be making interesting decisions, just riding the rails.

I've played with many instant gratification people in the past.  You know the type...you're on an interesting quest line and want to read the text...they click accept and run off, or start the next part before you've had a chance to read the first 2 words of the quest.

Quest window vanishes, give heavy sigh, realize that mmos are dieing a painful death because the stories and roleplaying is vanishing.

This is why I rarely group anymore.  Other players often detract from my immersion when trying to quest and appreciate those quests that ARE interesting.  I know, it makes no sense...play an mmo but play solo lots of time.  But this is the pidgeon hole that communities and writers are forcing lots of player in to.

Meh.

Great article.  It clarifies the frustration that a new writer for an MMO project must feel.  I tend to think MMOs decline quickly these days for lack of passion - the new writer's passion is strangled as their creativity is funneled into the same pattern of writing that is born from what the statistics tell us and is used by every other MMO out there.  No wonder we keep getting the same games over and over.

it always boils down to what the "end-game" is all about.  if it is about PVP then most of your pvpers will blaze through to the end just to take part in the end-game pvp battles etc.  if its a pure role playing game with no pvp elements then, most likely you won't have the so called "hardcore" players that skip content to just level as fast as possible, as much, there will always be people like that to some degree.  and you really can't cater a game to that sort of gaming style.  because you'll never win...
 

honestly if you look at some of the most addictive games in history, none of them have the "Kill 10 rats" sort of quests, except WoW.  its all about making it interesting, addictive and overall fun.  making tons of mini thought provoking quests... that lead into dungeons that have actual traps that test your gaming dexterity, eye-hand coordination and overall character building talents. 
Asheron's Call 1 has some of the best dungeons in any game to date... well thought out and somewhat puzzley. 
Sure you could be catering to a nitch group of people, but there is still that nitch market group out there.  because there is only so much room for the mindless EQ style gameplay. and eventually you are only left with a small nitch group anyway when its all said and done. 
 

companies just need to learn to keep being unique, because they all can't be the phenomena that WoW is.  you have to have an already huge player fan base before making an MMO in order to do that.

Quests are boring and dependent on player objective. Fallout 3 for example and offline single player game had an awesome quest design and layout. Cause and effect quests that determine your path of success. My personal objective in an MMO being that i prefer PVP style games is to get to the max level and play against other players.  Getting gear does not appeal to me along the way as long as i have a fair chance to beat any of my opponents 1 vs 1. Skill based.

I started MMO's early on but my first were World War 2 flight simulations. Fighter Ace, World War 2 Online, Aces High yada yada.  You got promoted based on kills and kill ratio but everybody started in the same equipment. There were no levels. Sure there were mission objectives but they played no real outcome on the game itself other then adding challenge.

Dark Age of Camelot was my first fantasy based game with quests as a leveling quotient. I didn't care about the story line. I barely even quested back in the hard grind days because i could level faster just killing mob after mob after mob achieving max level, getting Epic Armor and off to RVR i go.  Had they gave me a 50 as soon as i logged in with Epic Armor i would of been much more happy from a PVP perspective but the upside of quests and PVE was i met alot of wonderful people. That was one of the sole benefits of questing.

Quests have there place in PVE based games because they are all about storyline. PVP is a place quests or leveling really has no purpose other then to time sink. The next BIG PVP game will be a game thats skill based like Guild Wars but on a LARGE scale like Dark Age of Camelot. Bottom line is game companies need to separate PVE from PVP because they really don't go together. Developers who are directing quest makers need to realize that if the quest and the way its projected isn't immersive, people wont bother with them and are seen as a waste of time since all they want is the EXP bonus/prize. Oh btw Sanya your still hot! ;)..

Originally posted by Kordesh

 In other words "thank you MMO community for being min/maxing failbags who only care about hitting the level cap and then complaining why there's no content". Seriously, the first time I heard of a mod designed specifically to skip quest text, my faith in humanity, if I had any left, would have died just a bit more. 

I agree, but what can ya do? You give them books, and give them books, and all they do is eat the pages!

Well sorry if someone mentioned this already (I wasn't about to read 7 pages of posts to put in my 2 cents) but one thing I usually find to be the problem with the whole simple vs. story heavy/complex questing argument is that it assumes we can't have both.  The current model of questing became popular because it made progression more interesting by forcing you to hunt different mobs and see different areas instead of camping the same things in the same camp spots all day long. 

I don't see why we can't keep this system in place while adding some other type of quests/events on top of it to make the game world feel more alive.  I just wish games would stop calling them "quests" to try and trick us into thinking there more interesting than they are.  They should just call em "tasks" or "choirs" or "work", then you don't even need to bother with a stupid storyline or anything.  Save the writing and effort for a smaller number of quality events that really intrigue the player, and make em optional in some way so people won't "have" to do them to progress (intice them with other rewards that aren't just better equipment, like a fancy title or some other thing they can show off but doesn't effect combat efficiency).