Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

"Interesting Fact:

In the short history of MMORPG.com awards, neither the Reader's Choice nor Editorial award winners for Most Anticipated Game has ever gone on to win a Game of the Year, Best Game, Best New Game or Favorite Game award in the next year"

Why, this is the most simple and pure fact of games:

HYPE IS BAD.

DB

Originally posted by Vyeth

Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

That's the issue of objectivity. Most people (fanbois and haters on the extreme of the scale) have absolutely no idea what objectivity means. They think in terms of "universal good" and "universal bad". A hater does not like a certain combat mechanism of a game - he goes out yelling and crying that it's "BAD", universally.  People should finally understand what "apples and oranges" mean. But they need to grow up first, and it just won't happen to everyone. Ever.

DB

Originally posted by Vyeth

Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

This is gaming bigotry at its finest.  Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF.  It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.

It is, in fact, possible for the same gamer to like both PvE and PvP focused MMOs (and RTS games, and FPS games, and sports sims, etc).

Darkfall players keep making the tired claim - "this game isn't for everybody", but still get annoyed and defensive when everybody who tries it doesn't like it.  In my opinion, that overused phrase has become a dodge, meant to deflect criticism from the weaknesses and breaks in the game.

"This game isn't for everybody" was supposed to cover the harsh FFA PvP with full loot nature of the game, not the fact that DF is a paper-thin, out of tune, shallow "sandbox" MMO at the present time.

Originally posted by Harkkum

Frankly, bad designs are bad designs regardless of the hype. I think that us players are giving way too much benefit-of-doubt for the game designers by saying that their game would have been ground-breaking would they have spent some more time internally developing it. After all, the success isn't measured by the internal development back-slapping but by the gaming community. The games mentioned here that have amended the situation from the dreadful launch are not changing their course due to lack of pre-launch polish but due to lack of pre-launch thought. The hyped ideas weren't just fun no matter how much touted. Certainly, adding features that players are missing is nice and dandy but doesn't that just mean that the game developers themselves have ran out of ideas already ages ago when the "hyped" features of today's MMO market are the same you could see on MUDs at early 90s.

 

The gamers step into virgin worlds armed solely by their preconceived ideas as of what would be fun to them. If the game fails to deliver on those fronts the game is a failure. Most can cope with bumpy launch if what they find underneath the purely technical issues is worth investing in. I think that WoW's launch (or EVE's) is a paramount evidence on this: no-one can say that the game's launch was particularily classy with crashing servers days-in-days-out but the core game-mechanics were fun and allowed you to enjoy from the first quest onwards. It might be popular to say that WoW is merely a copycat of the grand ideas of its predecessors but would that be the case also DDO, AoC, WAR and Darkfall would have been successful to the same measure as people could have endured the choppy ride for they knew what a gem they had. History tells a different story. At times it feels that gaming industry as a whole is entering the same era of sequels as the movie industry has been for a few decades where risk is too costly for anyone to take. Waiting for the HBO of MMOs.

Very well said. All this old Games had more or less troubles with their release yet people stayed or came back. LotrO and Eve are pretty good examples how they turned things arround. Maybe it is all about this hyping, though I seriously doubt this, or it is more about: Less talking, more action .

Most Devs tend to talk a lot but do very little to get their MMO back on track. That's the key for a successful MMO, I guess, as long as they keep working on their game (patches, content etc) . Mythic only started to develop WAR because DAoC became less and less popular but instead to fix this game and to keep trying to get people interested again they decided to go for something new instead, of course it couldn't have all worked out...esp. not if they go with this kind of thinking at a new project. 

Eve online however shows how it can work if a company won't give up...it is worth to follow an idea even if it's sometimes hard.

This is a new kind of mindset though it was always one way or another there...that people want right away to be successfully and at best remain successfully but that's not how life works, for your ideas and visions you still have to work and sometimes you have to go through hell and back till you see the day your ideas become real.

It goes to show that not just anyone can make a successful mmo. So many average-failure type mmos out today the genre really needs good companies to make good games again. I wish I was playing a good mmo right now but unfortunately there is nothing to feel good about mmos today.  Thank god for fps,rpg and rts games to keep me busy while someone decides to make a good mmo again.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Good article.

I see a number of reasons why the "hyped" games failed. Hyped as in having enough votes on mmorpg.com to win 'most anticipated games"..

1. Blizzard is (and was) a giant in the PC gaming world. No wonder it made other mmorpg's look less polished.

2. AoC and War developpers thought that most Wow players were "bored" and wanted to have a new game.  Error: Only forum posters and people who paticipate in discussions on mmorpg.com are bored. Players that do play a game actively will not leave that game for a copy. It is time posters look at the industry and not mix up personal experience with general trends (like looking at sales charts ...). The fact that even game developpers made that error is proof they read ... too much forums.

They should make better games instead of reading forums where sometimes complete nonsense is published. Like comparing this industry with food or female singers...

3. Like it or not but the bars have been raised in the recent years. it is no longer enough to ask to kill 10 boars and /or 5 players ...a new "best" mmorpg has to have ALL the features we are used to AND add a couple of others.

Here is the "secret" behind the succes of Blizzard: they constantly change the game mechanics without changing the formula: and care for everyone to play a game at their ... pace.

Old players of Wow can argue what they want: I didn't see open free continents, flying personal mounts, underwater worlds, mounted combat, dual specs and phasing in AoC or War.

Nor the fantastic fluid responsve fights Wow is known for: a first to even have a valid PvP fight: .... the engine.

As to DF: it is the hardest and darkest fall of mmorpg's hype ever. It had to happen someday to wake up the ridiculous dreamers QQ's on mmorpg.com. I hope for the "dreamers" DF will be the last of the complete "duds", but I doubt it....

Games are all about evolution, polish and gameplay ... fun. Even mmorpg's.

Exactly rigth and what Ive been saying for years.  The geniuse of WoW is that it does cater to hardcore and casual players equally well.  Since launch I would say its been sliding even more to the casual player which is why its had such a lasting success.  The industry seems to be trending toward these niche games now liek DF (whether it intended to be or not) with small devout player bases.  Personal I dont see how any game that caters to only one type of player can be considered a sucess as this article clearly demonstrated.  DDO had to do a major reorganization to include rogue players who didnt want mandatory grouping and a totally instanced world.  WaR's PvE experince at launch was absolutely horrible and theyve had to do major tinkering to make what was billed as a pvp game more quester/raider friendly.  AoC and LoTR?...beautifully renderred games bu they had to have had major reworking to try to include pvp players.  I just wish all these companies hadnt spent so much time on graphics and had the polished gameplay, UI, and pvp that would be expectd from any console game. 

Sad thing is... Most of these failures have become almost acceptable to the MMO community. I have lost count of how many times I have heard the terms; “bugs are part of launch", "give the game six to twelve months and it will become a good game”, "people just do not understand coding, you fix one thing, and you break another". We are quite literally paying for mediocrity and, we just keep subscribing to it. No one, myself included, steps up and says “Screw this, give us a good game in the first week of launch or I am out’.

The only hyped game in the past 10 years that I did not jump on the bandwagon for was DFO. I hated beta and unlike AOC, Vanguard, SWG, EQ2, DoAC, WH, (all of which I was in alpha/beta and thought they all sucked but still paid to play at launch) I was not going to do it with Darkfall. I have decided that I am not going to make excuses for inept developers and publishers anymore. Maybe it is because I am getting older, (35 in a few weeks) but I refuse to invest $60.00 - $100. (Collectors edition) for a game then pay $192.00 (15.99x12) so that I can get a game that I played in beta but with a few slight improvements.

I am very anxiously awaiting the release of SW:ToR and I am currently in the Global Agenda Alpha (By far the best alpha I have ever been in) and I hope to see solid launch for once. *fingers crossed*
 

Originally posted by Xantheous

Sad thing is... Most of these failures have become almost acceptable to the MMO community. I have lost count of how many times I have heard the terms; “bugs are part of launch", "give the game six to twelve months and it will become a good game”, "people just do not understand coding, you fix one thing, and you break another". We are quite literally paying for mediocrity and, we just keep subscribing to it. No one, myself included, steps up and says “Screw this, give us a good game in the first week of launch or I am out’.

The only hyped game in the past 10 years that I did not jump on the bandwagon for was DFO. I hated beta and unlike AOC, Vanguard, SWG, EQ2, DoAC, WH, (all of which I was in alpha/beta and thought they all sucked but still paid to play at launch) I was not going to do it with Darkfall. I have decided that I am not going to make excuses for inept developers and publishers anymore. Maybe it is because I am getting older, (35 in a few weeks) but I refuse to invest $60.00 - $100. (Collectors edition) for a game then pay $192.00 (15.99x12) so that I can get a game that I played in beta bit with a few slight improvements.

I am very anxiously awaiting the release of SW:ToR and I am currently in the Global Agenda Alpha (By far the best alpha I have ever been in) and I hope to see solid launch for once. *fingers crossed*
 

I think this statement perfectly frames why many MMOs are so dismal. Bugs ARE a part of launch, it's a fact, if you've ever created a program / game / etc. on any level, you know this. It goes without saying that MMOs tend to be far more complex than other forms of games.

There has never been a bug free launch, no matter how much people's nostalgia says otherwise. Even blizzard had more than it's share of bugs, people simply just could tolerate it.

MMOs, though slowly, are very much improving. I'm not denying this is definitely a down year, but MMOs are launching bigger, better, and more or less with less bugs. However, the public's demands are escalating disproportionaly to what current developers can provide. The MMO community still demands to be an integral part in making these games, and yet we still cannot agree on: what makes a good game, how big should an MMO be at launch (how much should they bite off before it becomes too much), balance, economy, graphics, etc. It's no wonder that investors and developers alike are a little wary right now to 'break the mold'. The few that followed a successful formula got bashed (whether good games or not, people had 'already played that'.), the ones that decided to try something new also got bashed ('too kiddy, too different, not different enough, sucks, etc.) We have people complaining about Aion already, and it looks to be the best MMO out this year.

I think it's going to be difficult enough, nearly to the point of impossibility, to provide a 'good game at launch'; until we, as a community, are able to step back and let them develope. So much energy & resources is wasted on the hype machine, trying to control our outbursts, that it overwhelms most developers. The MMO is the only genre in which the players expects every game to be made 'for them', regardless of it's target audience. With most other games, you simply let it come out. try it, and either like it or not, it's as simply as that.

We need to get back to that if we want MMOs to thrive.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by Vyeth

Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

 

This is gaming bigotry at its finest.  Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF.  It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.

If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?

same theory applies..

If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..

As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..

Eh..

Originally posted by Vyeth

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by Vyeth

Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

 

This is gaming bigotry at its finest.  Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF.  It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.

 

If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?

same theory applies..

If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..

As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..

Eh..

Obviously, given your analogy, you'd want the opinion of someone who has solid experience with both.  There are plenty of those around.  Additionally, contrary to popular stereotyping, a person enjoying a theme-park MMO does not preclude the possibility of that same person enjoying a sandbox-style one, any more than it prevents them from enjoying any other type of game or activity.

But to make the analogy more precise, it would be like saying anyone who has played a PS3 has zero credibility, no matter how much they've also played Xbox, or WII, or anything else ("anyone who's tainted themselves by playing a PS3 can't possibly understand or enjoy the Xbox - he's one of those PS3 people" ).

That's where most of the DF fanbois are quick to judge with kneejerk defensive reactions - they attribute a person's not liking DF to not liking or understanding that genre or style of MMO.  In their minds, it's just not possible that those that don't like it - even those that like the genre - just think its a bad game.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by Vyeth

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by Vyeth

Its all about hype here... ...

Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...

I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..

Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?

Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..

 

This is gaming bigotry at its finest.  Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF.  It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.

 

If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?

same theory applies..

If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..

As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..

Eh..

 

Obviously, given your analogy, you'd want the opinion of someone who has solid experience with both.  There are plenty of those around.  Additionally, contrary to popular stereotyping, a person enjoying a theme-park MMO does not preclude the possibility of that same person enjoying a sandbox-style one, any more than it prevents them from enjoying any other type of game or activity.

But to make the analogy more precise, it would be like saying anyone who has played a PS3 has zero credibility, no matter how much they've also played Xbox, or WII, or anything else ("anyone who's tainted themselves by playing a PS3 can't possibly understand or enjoy the Xbox - he's one of those PS3 people" ).

That's where most of the DF fanbois are quick to judge with kneejerk defensive reactions - they attribute a person's not liking DF to not liking or understanding that genre or style of MMO.  In their minds, it's just not possible that those that don't like it - even those that like the genre - just think its a bad game.

Sad to say, but MMORPG.com does not have plenty of the "both" crowd.. If that was the case, as someone said earlier the issue of objectivity wouldn't be an issue after all.. People want universal "good" and "bad". You are twisting my words (of course) to sound as if I am implying that I am a darkfall fan and think that people who don't like it should shut up. Yet, this is not my point and never was, I used it as an example. But we agree to disagree...

Originally posted by X-Porter

Short version:

Winning Most Anticipated Game = Kiss of Death.

Three years of hoping for greatness and recieving sub-par junk doesn't bode well for 2009's winner...

 

Damn you beat me!

So in a nutshell, if MMORPG fans pick a game and it wins the Most Anticipated Game, don’t play it.

Great article, Mr. Wood. 

'Way too much neysayers posting, so here's some "anticipated MMOs" to ponder (since no one else mentioned them):

Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Star Trek Online.

Copernicus.

Originally posted by Loke666

I noticed that all the games except DDO launched way too early here.

And the editors and voters could not know that the companies would mess up the release that much, the key to success is releasing a product that is actually finished from the start, the consumers don't want a half done buggy thing that should have stayed another year in development. I am sure that VG, AoC and WAR would have done better if they fixed the problems with the games before release.

As for DDO, I think the choice of world lost a lot of subs to it, Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even Ravenloft would have done better. But what really stole subs from it was Guildwars, even though the games are different most people who don't mind instances prefer the better programmed game without monthly fees.

I think DDO laucnhed too early as well. Many complaints about the game after launch could have been predicted; many were addressed by the one-year anniversary (outdoor exploration, PVP, auction houses, level cap), but the things coming out with recent modules still feel like the plish going in for a game about to come out of beta. So either that's signs of a "re-launch" or a waste of resources.

I don't know why they picked Eberron, but it is the official D&D setting that annoys me the least, so thank heavens.  Forgotten Realms relies too much on powerful NPCs, and I just find the setting cliched.

Anyway, I will say, warts and slow development and all, DDO is the only MMO that has held my interest. It is certainly worthwhile to take a free trial.

Originally posted by moorewr

Originally posted by Loke666

I noticed that all the games except DDO launched way too early here.

And the editors and voters could not know that the companies would mess up the release that much, the key to success is releasing a product that is actually finished from the start, the consumers don't want a half done buggy thing that should have stayed another year in development. I am sure that VG, AoC and WAR would have done better if they fixed the problems with the games before release.

As for DDO, I think the choice of world lost a lot of subs to it, Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even Ravenloft would have done better. But what really stole subs from it was Guildwars, even though the games are different most people who don't mind instances prefer the better programmed game without monthly fees.

 

I think DDO laucnhed too early as well. Many complaints about the game after launch could have been predicted; many were addressed by the one-year anniversary (outdoor exploration, PVP, auction houses, level cap), but the things coming out with recent modules still feel like the plish going in for a game about to come out of beta. So either that's signs of a "re-launch" or a waste of resources.

I don't know why they picked Eberron, but it is the official D&D setting that annoys me the least, so thank heavens.  Forgotten Realms relies too much on powerful NPCs, and I just find the setting cliched.

Anyway, I will say, warts and slow development and all, DDO is the only MMO that has held my interest. It is certainly worthwhile to take a free trial.

I would have rathered they go with Ravenloft for the setting. Barring that, Dark Sun. Is the game more solo-friendly? I did the trial a while back, and at the time, it seemed like I wasn't going to survive much without a group. Did that change, any?

Originally posted by Sanguinia

I would have rathered they go with Ravenloft for the setting. Barring that, Dark Sun. Is the game more solo-friendly? I did the trial a while back, and at the time, it seemed like I wasn't going to survive much without a group. Did that change, any?

It's MUCH easier to solo up through the mid-levels now. What's more, in Mod 9, everything except raids will scale the hit points of the monsters to the number of players in the instance.  I tested this out out on the preview server and it seemed way too easy; but then I was using twinked gear and new the quests very well already.

That said, it is still way more fun with a good group.