I wanted to comment again on this thread since it has a lively mature discussion going. I believe the MMO developers need to stop marketing to a player base but market to the genre. Think about it for a moment.

An FPS game is catered toward fast twitch reflexes and fast paced combat. There have been many FPS, and I can't think of one that didnt have at least a tiny bit of success. They create their games based on FPS characteristics, NOT player bases. People that like that gameplay will buy those games and play them.

MMO developers are catering to a market rather than a genre. They are defining their playerbase before the game is even released by putting in features that many of us would agree are not what made up an MMO 10 years ago. FPS game developers are not trying to change the genre, they are just making small tweaks here and there and adding features that ENHANCE gameplay but do not change the core.

MMO developers are adding all this functionality and convenience to their games that TAKE AWAY from what a traditional MMO is. 

Comparing the MMO genre to the FPS genre was just an example. My point is universal.

Dont cater to a playerbase, instead create your worlds, invest the time needed, and put out a game that all will play, not just  the casual, or hardcore.

Edit: Check out my blog. www.slimfrog.com . Looking for some contributors.

Slimefrog your bang on the money, marketing rules at the moment. It's very sad but true, The flip side is that the cost involved in creating something totally new or even returning to grass MMO roots is greater than churning out another clone with a twist.

Still living in hope...

A couple of comments.

1.  I agree with the post immediately above, MMO's are built these days with more of an eye to marketing then to the idea of the "grass roots MMO".  But let's face it, companies make games first and foremost to make money.  MMO's are particularly attractive for this as they are the only genre that charges a monthly fee to be able to keep playing.  I don't count X-Box Live and it's competitors because they aren't charging for any one game and you can still play the game ( single player parts and/or multiplayer through LAN) without a monthly fee.

2.  (This is based on anecdotal evidence, not any study) I believe people tend to play their "first game" or at least "first game that doesn't suck" longer.  That's because in that first game EVERYTHING is new, and you want to explore every little bit of content you can.  As you play more games supposedly new things aren't new anymore; game X's Warrior = game Y's Hero = game Z's Warlord, it's the tank, and so on.  Therefore people may not play as many different classes, but just stick with the ones that previous games have shown them they enjoy the most.  The same with quests; kill-10-fill-in-the-blank-critters, or dungeons; kill the dragon and get the Magic Widgit.  Folks don't feel the same desire to explore every aspect of a game.

3.  As games become easier, to appeal to the casual gamer, the learning curve is shorter.  Games are simpler and don't take as long to master and compete.

Originally posted by jadan2000

 They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place.

1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont.

2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit.

3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.

Your assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by jadan2000

 They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place.

1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont.

2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit.

3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.

 

You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.

Not necessarily.  Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games.  I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play.  Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join.  Of course, each day more older people leave.  

So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer?  Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years?  Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by jadan2000

 They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place.

1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont.

2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit.

3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.

 

You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.

 

Not necessarily.  Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games.  I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play.  Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join.  Of course, each day more older people leave.  

So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer?  Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years?  Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?

You are stating a claim for me that I did not make.  I did not say that all casual players stuck with WoW for 4+ years.  Your own claim proves my point for me very easily.  The people you played with a lot all played for two years.  For two years they played a game geared more to casual play in general.

The claim I was refuting was that somehow casual play cannot equal any type of sustained success, which is easily proven false not just by WoW, but many other examples.

And you are implying that because players do not stick with a game for 4+ years, they somehow left because they are "casual" players and as the previous poster states, "You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont."

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

 

No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.

The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players.  Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs.  Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap.   How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release.  I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.

I blame the fact that sandboxes have gone out of fashion. It's a lot easier to get people started in a themepark environment where everything is spoon-fed to the player, and the learning curve is as flat as a pancake. That approach leaves nothing to be discovered or created by the players themselves, only the carefully directed and highly linear content the devs created.  And great as that content can be, it will never be enough, that sort of content is always consumed many times faster than it could possibly be produced.

To some extent this is of course a matter of personal preference. I'm not about to claim that theme park based games are inferior in every way, they simply offer a different experience. An experience that might be of higher quality and higher intensity, but for a much shorter period of time. Games like EVE , UO and even old muds didn't seem that interesting at first glance, but they all had some depth, there was a lot more to them than what first met the eye. With games on the other end of the spectrum I find that it's the other way around. They are all surface, and after talking one or two characters to the level cap, and perhaps beating a handful of raidbosses  there is nothing left worth doing. 

My ideal version for an mmo would be a sandbox / themepark hybrid, nothing grabs the attention of players like a good themepark, and nothing keeps it like a good sandbox. Epic quest-lines could be used to ease the player into the sandbox part of the game and to explain the backstory. The first part of the game could be a young space marine or cadett fighting their way through a long campain before earning a command of their own,  and and the second part would be them venturing forth into the newly conquered territory to establish new colonies and defend humanity, just to give an unimaginative example.

The important part is that character development doesn't grind to a halt at the level cap, and that players are given an opportunity to influence the world around them in a meaningful way, not just fighting over the same fort and see it change hands five times a day.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Cephus404

What's going on?  Why can't MMOs give you the same sense of community and wonder and excitement that a text-based game could?

 People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.

• People played MUDs to interact and socialize.
• Interaction and socializing breed community.
• Community breeds long term relationships.
• Long term relationships keep people in the MUD longer.

Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs?  What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people?  I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.

What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?

Originally posted by Milky

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

 

 

No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.

The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players.  Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs.  Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap.   How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release.  I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.

You need a life if you treat MMOs more than just games. MMOs have come a long way to become fun, social games.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Cephus404

What's going on?  Why can't MMOs give you the same sense of community and wonder and excitement that a text-based game could?

 People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.

• People played MUDs to interact and socialize.
• Interaction and socializing breed community.
• Community breeds long term relationships.
• Long term relationships keep people in the MUD longer.

Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs?  What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people?  I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.

What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?

Of course not. There are many reasons. Socialization is only one of them.

For example, you can't really trade without an AH and many players. You can't show off your gear to people without others around. You can PvP without others. The list goes on and on. Plus, a MMO has much MORE content than a SP game and you can learn the game once and consume a lot more content.

None of those things require you to group with others.

At the end of the day, people want a good game to relax and have fun. And sometimes that means simple hack-n-slash.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Cephus404

What's going on?  Why can't MMOs give you the same sense of community and wonder and excitement that a text-based game could?

 People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.

• People played MUDs to interact and socialize.
• Interaction and socializing breed community.
• Community breeds long term relationships.
• Long term relationships keep people in the MUD longer.

Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs?  What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people?  I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.

What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?

 

Of course not. There are many reasons. Socialization is only one of them.

For example, you can't really trade without an AH and many players. You can't show off your gear to people without others around. You can PvP without others. The list goes on and on. Plus, a MMO has much MORE content than a SP game and you can learn the game once and consume a lot more content.

None of those things require you to group with others.

At the end of the day, people want a good game to relax and have fun. And sometimes that means simple hack-n-slash.

 

I didn't say it required you to group with others, I said it required you to PLAY with others, which every single thing you mentioned does.