Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

Are the players responsible for this? yes? no?

Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years?

It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.

Or is the primary userbase changing, not so much the games themselves?

In my opinion, probably a bit of both.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

Are the players responsible for this? yes? no?

Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years?

It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.

 

 

 

I think it may be due to the "sameness" of MMO's on the market. I have played several in the last year or so and i have yet to find one that im willing to invest months or years into. I was a single player guy until my son in law talked me into WOW. Played some with him but mostly my grandsons. Played WOW the longest of any MMO, just a bit over two years. Played more to play with the boys than due to finding the game spectacular.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

Are the players responsible for this? yes? no?

Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years?

It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.

 

 

 

MMO's these days are designed for instant gratification.

Instant gratification never provides long term satisfaction.

 No.

You, I, and others are simply used to MMORPGS now. People new to the genre will still be captivated by them, and stick at one for some time. Those of us who have been playing for a decade know them inside out. We know the underlying mechanics, we know what to expect, for the most part.

Remember when driving your car was fun? Any excuse to go out for a drive. 15 years later it's not so fun, traffic is a chore, the roads are clogged, petrol is expensive.

There is nothing wrong with the mmo industry. There is an amazing choice that simply didn't exist 10 years ago. There are some fantastic quality games on the market with oodles of content. The problem is you.

If you eat nothing but chips you will soon become bored of chips.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Yes I think MMO's have changed. Due to the players changing. Now developers try to create what a lot of players want now, fast leveling, so they can rush to end game.

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

Over the past 3 or 4 years there are more casual players playing that just want a relaxing game to enjoy with friends or new people they meet.

Are the players responsible for this? yes? no?

Yes, I think that most of the responsibility is on the players. Again because we have many more casual players or players that think the you need to be at end game or maxed out in skills, to be able to enjoy the game. There is no talk or very little talk about enjoying the journey. Mostly it is how fast to end game, or how long till I max out my skills.

Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years?

Due to players changing the Companies need to change to adapt to what the customer wants.

It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.

 

 

 

Now whether this is good or bad would depend on each persons opinion. People do change with age, Where once someone was a hardcore player, that same person may now be a casual player just looking for a little fun with friends.

No matter what the business, companies adapt to the the changes in the people they are trying to serve.

These are just my opinions though.

Most people don't play MMOs for years.  They didn't back in 2000 and they don't now.  There was a study right before WOW came out and the churn was around 6-8 months average.   Forumgoers are NOT the majority or even a decent representation.

they did.. and tbh its the reason most todays mmo fail, would it be bad launch, or terrible bugs and performance, none of those things actually kill game.. yes you loose about 10% due bugs or crappy launch, i mean you dont exactly quit game after investing it.. cuz some quest dont work.. some class is bit better, or cuz server is down

the fact why most mmo fail after 2 months, cuz they dont have content after those 2 months, the whole catchprase every mmo dev today days , that you login and have action instant, was it 30 mins or hour.. there is plenty of action, it makes me sick

its whole casual market crap, its one of those wow myths , where every american will say wow is the mmo that ruined mmo genre, and introduced everyone and his grandmom to mmo genre, when its only americans who have those commercials, and its only what 15-30% of wow pop is from america is bullcrap

while thats not the point, wow is actuall factor why every game now catters to fast playtime, and whatnot

what most devs dont see, that wow was never like that , yes you could basicly login and do battleground in 30 mins, but thats about it, nor wow was about super duper 1-xx lvl content , it was simple there was nothing exactly ground breaking, it was well done.. polished, and it was fun doing it with others

my post reminds me too much of warhammer, which we know, is wow copy to extend , and it failed on key points, such as mm, those 2 letters, never fitted into war, it was like single player, lan game at best, only first 5 lvls felt like mmorpg, server caps were terrible, 1k ppl, 500 per side, spread out in what 8 locations was it.. ? 4 for each side? or 6, anyway  , you get the point

while im pretty sure wow servers had 5k cap from release ( hey i might be wrong ) and have about 10k ( i might be wrong again  ) now, and wow was all about endgame

and wow didnt actually do anything for casuals till wotlk, or atleast middle of tbc , and by that time they had what 9-10 mln subs , so once again, mass casualisation ( most of its actually good thing for hc players too, it didnt ruin the game ) wasnt the key thing in getting all the subs

what got them , was content to keep ppl playing, you keep yours 6 mln, you add 2-3 more with another expansions, then same with one more, in the end you keep them all, and boom ur on 11 mln, it wasnt like

oh wow.. 2 months later, its 300 subs, then year altter is 3mln, then again 300 subs.. no

trow me in some half assed quests, polish the game, make it fun, add loads of endgame content, and thats the only way, someone gonna get above 1 mln

questing is most fun at the beggining anyway, there will be no quest line or quest system, that beats the rush while lvling with guildies, exploring new stuff, or just racing to lvl cap, so when you invest so much into few quests, and midgame content, just to realise, you doing it solo, its far from fun

Originally posted by Josher

Most people don't play MMOs for years.  They didn't back in 2000 and they don't now.  There was a study right before WOW came out and the churn was around 6-8 months average.   Forumgoers are NOT the majority or even a decent representation.

I played MMOs back then And we have an extremely high turn over rate these days.

I don't really care what some study says all I could comment on are my own experiences and games like UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, AO and Even WoW were played much longer then games that released in the last 2-3 years.

I do agree that we're the minority I;ve always said forum goers are like 3-5% of the overall MMO community but I don't see what that has to do with it.

Originally posted by Josher

Most people don't play MMOs for years.  They didn't back in 2000 and they don't now.  There was a study right before WOW came out and the churn was around 6-8 months average.   Forumgoers are NOT the majority or even a decent representation.

Your average MMO forum reader is going to have trouble accepting that, but it's pretty much true. Retention rates have been a relative constant for the past decade.

EvE and Alganon are the two mmo's ithink of that seem to want there players for the long haul.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

 

MMO's these days are designed for instant gratification.

Instant gratification never provides long term satisfaction.

        Nicely said.......

Originally posted by LynxJSA   

Originally posted by Josher

Most people don't play MMOs for years.  They didn't back in 2000 and they don't now.  There was a study right before WOW came out and the churn was around 6-8 months average.   Forumgoers are NOT the majority or even a decent representation.

Your average MMO forum reader is going to have trouble accepting that, but it's pretty much true. Retention rates have been a relative constant for the past decade.

When a player starts playing a game they usually put in a good deal of time initially. Why is this? Part of this is due to it just being "new" but the other part is that the player is getting something valuable in return for their time spent in the game. As the game progresses there comes a point where the value per time spent ratio starts to decrease until eventually the player feels their time is more important than to spend playing a game that returns no value.

I think the game developers need to continue to find ways to maintain a high value / time ratio over longer periods of time. I have no illusions that this is an easy problem to solve but until progress is made on this the market will not see significant increases in long term retention.

How do you keep that first 30 days feeling 2 or more years after ship? There seems to be a pretty obvious solution, just not an obvious way to achieve it.

The solution of course is to make sure the players always have something new to experience. Once the player feels like they hit the ceiling or cap then boredom starts to set in as they look for things to do to keep that value/time ratio high. So how do you do that?

Some players may enjoy grinding for a better piece of gear while others just spend their time doing other activities. For some players this keeps that ratio up but for a large body of players they simply cannot find enough interesting things to do to justify the time spent and so they stop playing (usually until the next major content expansion comes out).

So while I do agree that the current retention rate amount MMO players is low I think it has more to do with the games than with the players. Yes some players are just curious and will never remain long term. Some are asked to play by friends/family but wouldn't do so on their own. Once that recruiting player stops playing so do they. Then of course you have the hardcore players that burn through content in periods of days not months and then get bored and quit. The fact is that you have all kinds of players with all kinds of playing habits and interests. That is what makes the problem so difficult to solve.

MMOs design objective seems to be changing, instead of being a game based on a persistent character in which you have fun and grow strong according to the time you spend developing it, it's changing to something that is either a fast development, or a development in which money makes the difference, easily shown by the rise of F2P Item Mall MMOs and RMT Powerleveling and Currency selling companies, and they only grow because people support them.

Even though I really hate this way and believe in the traditional sense of games being merely something to have fun as you play it - the fun being in progressing, not in the end of it, nothing can be done when the MMO players of old that were kids and now are adults think they can conquer the games with money instead of the time they used to invest. This even changes the new generations of players that never played old school MMOs such as UO in their beginning that now face games developed around the money-shortcut.

But, yes, MMOs pretty much are changing, and not only in the graphical evolution sense, but also in the focus of the fun.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by JGMIII

Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game?

Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?

Are the players responsible for this? yes? no?

Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years?

It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.

 

 

 

 

MMO's these days are designed for instant gratification.

Instant gratification never provides long term satisfaction.

This pretty much explains it

IMO if you dont create huge emersive worlds with plenty of options and things to do it will not hold ppl very long.

Take for instance WAR. Its very shallow in mnay respects to pvp, crafting and being lead form one area to another. This wont translate to long term subs. I cant believe I lasted 4 months on it.

Eve Online has plenty to do: Trading. missioning, pvp, reaerching, manufacturing, mining in a huge universe. When the walk in stations comes out this game will get even larger. Been playing over a year now.

You've simply got to think big and out of the box to hold subs. Unfortunately its not happening in alot of cases.

 I believe the MMO design is just losing its flare to be honest. And maybe not just the MMO genre, but all online genres. Its been stated before that players are just simply getting used to the mechanics, tiny changes to a feature here and there are not keeping our attention, and the recycling of the same old features is just not compelling as they once were when the MMO genre was young and fresh. Graphics can only get so detailed before they become too much like real life. The fantasy genre can only mix and match the basic archetypes so many ways to logically create something even half-ass "new". Don't get me wrong, we all have the "must haves" that must be contained in a game to play it. Features that should by now be a "default" thing with all MMOs. 

I will use WoW as an example as its the fondest "End-Game" experience I have had. There are many complaints that encounters are becoming to easy or simplified, but could it be that you are such an experienced MMO player that nothing really seems all that surprising. There are only so many ways to use a randomly generated event with a computer. A computer/program operates on a specific list of instructions to accomplish a task, and throwing in a RNG in there will only change so many things. Scripted events only stay so cool and new for so long, before you no longer have to keep that silence on ventrilo to stay concentrated. 

The gamers are just simply too used to the mechanics, the setting, and all of the other features that make up a normal MMO.

This doesn't mean there isnt room for innovation, but there are only so many ways to skin a cat before you are a pretty experienced cat skinner.

This isn't knocking MMO development, its just a point of view on how far the average MMO player has come along with the Genre itself.

I've stated this in your last thread about endgame. Maybe it's why you created this thread, maybe not, but it's a good topic.

I believe the answer is staring us in the face. The proof is already presented to us. MMORPG's have turned into a genre aimed at the casual player. We can see this in almost every design decision, from the leveling curve, to the length of time it takes to accomplish something. UI has been created to streamline functions and make it as easy and intuitive as searching the web. So from my view, I believe MMO's are only designed to last the average player 3-6 months, the hardcore less, and the extremely casual more. I don't see this as a bad thing, because the genre is becoming saturated with other choices, leaving us the ability to play all new releases and return to the old ones when an expansion is released. No longer do we need to feel loyal to one game for 5 years, wondering what we're missing from other games. No longer do we need multiple subscriptions, since we can experience it all in a reasonable amount of time, with plenty of the year left to try other games. As I approach 30 years of age, and my life becomes busy, I cannot help but appreciate the direction the genre is going. But make no mistake, I do remember the good times of my first MMO's. I do remember the time sinks, and the good community it bore. There's still a place for virtual worlds that allow people to simulate real life inside a game, but the stakes are high and any effort put into one would need to be good enough to ensure quality.

Originally posted by Slimfrog

 I believe the MMO design is just losing its flare to be honest. And maybe not just the MMO genre, but all online genres. Its been stated before that players are just simply getting used to the mechanics, tiny changes to a feature here and there are not keeping our attention, and the recycling of the same old features is just not compelling as they once were when the MMO genre was young and fresh. Graphics can only get so detailed before they become too much like real life. The fantasy genre can only mix and match the basic archetypes so many ways to logically create something even half-ass "new". Don't get me wrong, we all have the "must haves" that must be contained in a game to play it. Features that should by now be a "default" thing with all MMOs. 

I will use WoW as an example as its the fondest "End-Game" experience I have had. There are many complaints that encounters are becoming to easy or simplified, but could it be that you are such an experienced MMO player that nothing really seems all that surprising. There are only so many ways to use a randomly generated event with a computer. A computer/program operates on a specific list of instructions to accomplish a task, and throwing in a RNG in there will only change so many things. Scripted events only stay so cool and new for so long, before you no longer have to keep that silence on ventrilo to stay concentrated. 

The gamers are just simply too used to the mechanics, the setting, and all of the other features that make up a normal MMO.

This doesn't mean there isnt room for innovation, but there are only so many ways to skin a cat before you are a pretty experienced cat skinner.

This isn't knocking MMO development, its just a point of view on how far the average MMO player has come along with the Genre itself.

This is a good and valid point. This goes for all genres too. All games start to feel the same and no longer capture your attention like they once did. I think the only cure for this is something most gamers don't want to face, and that's a break. Gamers need to take a break from one genre; long enough for them to forget things you took for granted. Maybe the gamer could play another genre; a genre the complete opposite of the one they came from. Or they can simply take a break from gaming and pick it back up the next year when something truely exciting gets their attention.

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by Slimfrog

 I believe the MMO design is just losing its flare to be honest. And maybe not just the MMO genre, but all online genres. Its been stated before that players are just simply getting used to the mechanics, tiny changes to a feature here and there are not keeping our attention, and the recycling of the same old features is just not compelling as they once were when the MMO genre was young and fresh. Graphics can only get so detailed before they become too much like real life. The fantasy genre can only mix and match the basic archetypes so many ways to logically create something even half-ass "new". Don't get me wrong, we all have the "must haves" that must be contained in a game to play it. Features that should by now be a "default" thing with all MMOs. 

I will use WoW as an example as its the fondest "End-Game" experience I have had. There are many complaints that encounters are becoming to easy or simplified, but could it be that you are such an experienced MMO player that nothing really seems all that surprising. There are only so many ways to use a randomly generated event with a computer. A computer/program operates on a specific list of instructions to accomplish a task, and throwing in a RNG in there will only change so many things. Scripted events only stay so cool and new for so long, before you no longer have to keep that silence on ventrilo to stay concentrated. 

The gamers are just simply too used to the mechanics, the setting, and all of the other features that make up a normal MMO.

This doesn't mean there isnt room for innovation, but there are only so many ways to skin a cat before you are a pretty experienced cat skinner.

This isn't knocking MMO development, its just a point of view on how far the average MMO player has come along with the Genre itself.

 

This is a good and valid point. This goes for all genres too. All games start to feel the same and no longer capture your attention like they once did. I think the only cure for this is something most gamers don't want to face, and that's a break. Gamers need to take a break from one genre; long enough for them to forget things you took for granted. Maybe the gamer could play another genre; a genre the complete opposite of the one they came from. Or they can simply take a break from gaming and pick it back up the next year when something truely exciting gets their attention.

 

On a further note, I agree with you that maybe the first generation of MMO players should take a long needed break. Now Im not saying the ones that are perfectly fine with the genre and still taken in by its vastness. But we all know there were things to do before we found these gems and there are still things to do if we stopped playing them, I dont think anyone can safely say that gaming is their ONLY interest. So do like I did, sit back, unsub from everything for a while, and simply Watch the genre evolve and change.

Who knows, maybe a year or so down the road a leap in tech will allow for more innovation. Sit and wait. Pick another hobby for a while. See which games rise and which ones fall. Its actually quite interesting, and you will over time learn which ones are worth playing and giving a trial run, or which ones you think you should stay away from.