Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

I don't see an avoidance in words, all I see in your words is a twisted interpretation of the creators intent, and hey, I will not fault you your view, no matter how twisted it may be, but I still whole heartedly disagree.   See, this game works both ways.  You see it one way, someone else sees it another.

 

You are catching on.  Different people see things different ways, which is a large part of why the Jedi attempt to enforce a vision of the One True Way is so reprehensible, because there is no One True Way.

 

However without stating that their way is the "one true way" as you call it, the Sith push their ideals on their initiates as well. Though they might go about indoctrination in different ways, the goal si still the same. You cannot argue for one side and say that they force views on their recruits as you base your reasoning on the "better" ideas of the opposite party. Both sides are fighting for what they believe in, just as people do in the real world. However one side leans towards ideas that lead to destruction while the other side spreads ideas to uphold what by instinct humans are always trying to achieve....peace.

 

This.

Good night folks!

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

 

 

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

 

 

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

Un Fuggin believable.....

Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

 

 

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 

Un Fuggin believable.....

 

Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 

where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Nothing I needed to catch.  I understand your view, don't agree, and see more of a twisting of what was written/intended than a point of view.  You say the Jedi enforce, I say the Jedi teach.  I say the Sith do more enforcing, you seem to think they are just fighting the good fight in some sort of twisted way.  So, enjoy playing the side of the Sith, I'll enjoy playing the side of the Jedi, and we'll just have to meet on the "battlefield" as it were.

Thanks for the conversation, but now I must get ready for bed, and prepare to be evil in your eyes (it was you that stated you basically felt that it would be evil to sacrifice your life for a stranger, right?), since when I go to work, I may have to risk my life for a stranger.  I mean, because being a firefighter bascially makes me evil since I might have to run into a burning house, risking my life to save a stranger=P

 

Lol, never said sacrifice was inherently evil.  Just said it wasn't inherently good.  Besides, I am guessing you don't go into the burning house with the *intent* of sacrificing your life, you go in with the intent of coming back out without a scratch on you, with any residents in tow and unharmed, collecting your paycheck, and going home to your family (if you have one.)

I apologize ahead of time if it is necessary for you to fall to my saber, as you provide an enjoyable perspective in conversation.

Originally posted by Zzulu

Who cares about Jedi or Sith. They're two extreme sides of the same coin.

 

The good life is with the smugglers anyway :)

Ah, but look at the example of the smuggler in the new SWTOR entry.  She acted very much like one who follows the Sith code.  In fact, I would argue that many smugglers do a much better job of living the code than most Sith do.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

You already know my view on what things are set in stone, so I'll just respond to the other part.  Disagreeing with values and disregarding them are by no means the same thing.

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

 

 

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 

Un Fuggin believable.....

 

Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 

where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

because morals are morals...the moral code is inherent...and not swayed by opinion. You are either morale...or you are not.

It's like asking whether or not you would rape.....morality tells you you should not....it doesn't ask "what if"

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 Un Fuggin believable.....

 Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

Gestankfaust, you would make a great Jedi, you think just like them.  "Anyone who disagrees with our morality is either stupid or evil, and must be stopped!"

sanders01, your signature is awesome.  I have that quote on a refrigerator magnet, words to live by.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by Eumdazen

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

 

 

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 

The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 

You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 

Un Fuggin believable.....

 

Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 

where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

 

because morals are morals...the moral code is inherent...and not swayed by opinion. You are either morale...or you are not.

 

It's like asking whether or not you would rape.....morality tells you you should not....it doesn't ask "what if"

 

Morals are what you percieve them to be, not set in stone. What you think is right, is not right to some people, what you thing is wrong is not wrong to some people. I'm not talking about "what if" scenarios. Such as "what if raping that girl would later save her life?" because that is irrlevent at this time.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 Un Fuggin believable.....

 Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

 

Gestankfaust, you would make a great Jedi, you think just like them.  "Anyone who disagrees with our morality is either stupid or evil, and must be stopped!"

sanders01, your signature is awesome.  I have that quote on a refrigerator magnet, words to live by.

I giggled a bit there.....

fact is.....you have to see it from all sides.....which I do....but you and others can't seem to do

The Jedi code:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

I've looked over this code and came to a startling conclussion.

The Jedi are Vulcan wannabe's

Pointy eared, devil like, pig ignorant, green blooded and arrogant.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

you can go to bed...your values were disregarded anyway

 The fact is.....some things are set in stone as either common sense/fact/moral

 You can choose to disagree....but then you can choose to say the Earth is still flat....moron is as moron thinks

Morals isn't exactly set in stone. If you asked Hitler if what he did was morally right, he would tell you yes, because it was for the betterment of his people. If you asked the Taliban if bombing the twin towers was morally right, they would say yes, because they were in the service of their god. It's all in perspective, and on who you ask. Though most people would agree, that those two examples were horibally wrong, in the moral spectrum of things, but some people would say it was right.

 Un Fuggin believable.....

 Morals are set in stone...and as you pointed out, only psychos try to manipulate morals....

 where do you immoral people come from...and where should we have isolated the moron virus?

How is it set in stone if other people can believe that what we percieve to be "evil" as "good"? 

 

Gestankfaust, you would make a great Jedi, you think just like them.  "Anyone who disagrees with our morality is either stupid or evil, and must be stopped!"

sanders01, your signature is awesome.  I have that quote on a refrigerator magnet, words to live by.

 

I giggled a bit there.....

 

fact is.....you have to see it from all sides.....which I do....but you and others can't seem to do

No, you're not seeing it from all sides. You're thinking in a straight forward manner, such as things that I think are right, are always right, and what I think is wrong is always wrong. While you do not think of what others might percieve of your rights and wrongs, because it differs between differnt people. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

because morals are morals...the moral code is inherent...and not swayed by opinion. You are either morale...or you are not.

 It's like asking whether or not you would rape.....morality tells you you should not....it doesn't ask "what if"

 

There is your problem right there.  There is no "the moral code."  There are many competing moral codes, all with their own perspective on what is moral.

Hell, without you telling us *which* moral code you are talking about, there isn't even any way for us to know that you are representing it correctly, except taking your word for it.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Nothing I needed to catch.  I understand your view, don't agree, and see more of a twisting of what was written/intended than a point of view.  You say the Jedi enforce, I say the Jedi teach.  I say the Sith do more enforcing, you seem to think they are just fighting the good fight in some sort of twisted way.  So, enjoy playing the side of the Sith, I'll enjoy playing the side of the Jedi, and we'll just have to meet on the "battlefield" as it were.

Thanks for the conversation, but now I must get ready for bed, and prepare to be evil in your eyes (it was you that stated you basically felt that it would be evil to sacrifice your life for a stranger, right?), since when I go to work, I may have to risk my life for a stranger.  I mean, because being a firefighter bascially makes me evil since I might have to run into a burning house, risking my life to save a stranger=P

 

 

Lol, never said sacrifice was inherently evil.  Just said it wasn't inherently good.  Besides, I am guessing you don't go into the burning house with the *intent* of sacrificing your life, you go in with the intent of coming back out without a scratch on you, with any residents in tow and unharmed, collecting your paycheck, and going home to your family (if you have one.)

I apologize ahead of time if it is necessary for you to fall to my saber, as you provide an enjoyable perspective in conversation.

We'll see who falls=)
 

Now I am going to bed.  Had fun.  night all.  For real this time.

one difference between a dark jedi and a sith is a sith actually tries to rationalize what they're doing and a dark jedi just knows they're wrong

this affects their playstyle as a dark jedi has fear as they are expecting to be judged

This most common arguement against the Light being the wrong path and Dark being good is actually a sidestep on the issue and criticism of those who report to follow the Light.  If they do something wrong, we conclude, it is because the Light is wrong.

Fortunately for gray jedi they realize that while the Light is right and Dark is wrong, that sometimes the jedi council is wrong (they interpret the Light incorrectly).

Some people confuse dark jedi, like anakin, who think they can use both Light and Dark whenever they feel like it, for gray jedi who know better, that you can't abuse morality like that.  You either have an allegiance with one or the other.  Your habitual actions may sometimes do something against your allegiance, but you can only have on allegiance.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

because morals are morals...the moral code is inherent...and not swayed by opinion. You are either morale...or you are not.

 It's like asking whether or not you would rape.....morality tells you you should not....it doesn't ask "what if"

 

 

There is your problem right there.  There is no "the moral code."  There are many competing moral codes, all with their own perspective on what is moral.

Hell, without you telling us *which* moral code you are talking about, there isn't even any way for us to know that you are representing it correctly, except taking your word for it.

you....just are clueless....

There is no "moral code". Just morality....and it is defined and non swaying to your views.....you are the weak point in morality.....period

Originally posted by Sabradin

This most common arguement against the Light being the wrong path and Dark being good is actually a sidestep on the issue and criticism of those who report to follow the Light.  If they do something wrong, we conclude, it is because the Light is wrong.

Fortunately for gray jedi they realize that while the Light is right and Dark is wrong, that sometimes the jedi council is wrong (they interpret the Light incorrectly).

Some people confuse dark jedi, like anakin, who think they can use both Light and Dark whenever they feel like it, for gray jedi who know better, that you can't abuse morality like that.  You either have an allegiance with one or the other.  Your habitual actions may sometimes do something against your allegiance, but you can only have on allegiance.

I would argue that this is a seperate discussion.  Jedi vs. Sith, especially in terms of their codes, is nowhere near the same as Light vs. Dark.  One could follow either code, and tilt either to the Light or the Dark.

Assuming of course, that one buys into the practice of segmenting the force and labelling the "parts" with names carrying heavy moral connotations.  One could just as easily describe them as the "Consequence Free and Sporadically Useful" side of the force and the "Consequence commensurate with it's greater power" side of the force.  A bit wordy though, Light and Dark do fall off the tongue more easily.

As to your description of Dark Jedi, "knowing they are wrong,"  I disagree.  Dark Jedi know they are in violation of the Jedi code, and the Jedi indoctrination process may have led them to believe that this makes them "wrong," but wrong is in truth a matter of perspective, what is wrong for one is not necessarily wrong for another, and many Dark Jedi choose to view themselves as right.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

you....just are clueless....

 There is no "moral code". Just morality....and it is defined and non swaying to your views.....you are the weak point in morality.....period

  

Wikipedia:

"In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong. Morals are created by and define society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. An example of the descriptive usage could be "common conceptions of morality have changed significantly over time."

Not seeing where this is some absolute thing that doesn't sway according to anyone's views.