Speaking in terms of Sith vs. Jedi, not Empire vs. Republic.

Just look at the different codes of the two orders.  First, the Sith:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Then look at the code of the Jedi:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

All that is required of the Sith is that they be themselves and make their own choices, acknowledging the truth that real peace does not exist and pursuing their goals with the fullness of their passion.  This is not, in and of itself, evil.  The good or evil of the Sith code lies solely in the goals of the individual Sith.  It is, at it's core, a celebration of freedom and humanity.

The ideal of the Jedi on the other hand is essentially to be soulless droids.  A Jedi is not allowed to know love, the greatest motivator and purpose of life, the Jedi is not allowed anger, even when anger is called for, the Jedi is not allowed grief, no matter how great the loss, the Jedi is not allowed fear, even though fear leads to self-preservation.  The Jedi is not allowed humanity, in the philosophical sense, though supposedly his goal is to preserve it. 

The Jedi code is inherently evil, because it asks of it's followers that they be less than human, that they sacrifice in their own lives all of the aspects that make those lives worth living, to the point that the last line of their code becomes sad prophecy.  There truly is no death for a Jedi, because before something can die, it must first live, and for the Jedi there is no life, only the Force.  An order dedicated to the eradication of the soul and opposed to the very idea of the individual cannot be considered good.

 dude, you have it all wrong.  The sith is about themselves, hence the "I" part -- everything is for their personal gain.  The jedi is not about oneself, but being humble and striving for the betterment of those around them; not about personal gain.

Originally posted by Gigget

 dude, you have it all wrong.  The sith is about themselves, hence the "I" part -- everything is for their personal gain.  The jedi is not about oneself, but being humble and striving for the betterment of those around them; not about personal gain.

The basic unit of humanity is the individual, if everyone followed the Jedi code there would be no more individuals, just flesh and bone droids.  And the Jedi don't strive for the "betterment" of anyone.  The strive for Peace at any Price.  Kind of like Neville Chamberlain.  Conflict is the root of all progress, the way of the Jedi is the way of stagnation, and advocates the rejection of all that gives zest to life.

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

I'd take a Jedi as a friend over a Sith anyday. Just by the Sith code, you can see that they have a high chance of screwing you over.

While not every one is black and white I'd say a Sith would more likely leave you to die if you were wounded on a battlefield.

Being good is often about self sacrifice for the benefit of others which every Jedi strives to do.

you're right and wrong.  you are right about there being nothing evil about the sith code, just about the individual motivations of different sith.  however that doesn't make them the good guys.  it just means their code has similar values to your own, if you value the self.  many people value the idea of a community based on rules where people get along.

yes the jedi code is pretty uptight, but that doesn't make either the bad guy, its just 2 different views on the same thing.

---

Originally posted by CazNeerg The basic unit of humanity is the individual

---

 
This is wrong just on the meaning of the word "humanity"

1: the quality or state of being humane

2 a: the quality or state of being human bplural : human attributes or qualities <his work has the ripeness of the 18th century, and its rough humanities — Pamela H. Johnson>

3plural : the branches of learning (as philosophy, arts, or languages) that investigate human constructs and concerns as opposed to natural processes (as in physics or chemistry) and social relations (as in anthropology or economics)

4: the human race : the totality of human beings

This mean the human race as a WHOLE...

/fail

Originally posted by jusomdude

I'd take a Jedi as a friend over a Sith anyday. Just by the Sith code, you can see that they have a high chance of screwing you over.

While not every one is black and white I'd say a Sith would more likely leave you to die if you were wounded on a battlefield.

Being good is often about self sacrifice for the benefit of others which every Jedi strives to do.

It works if there is a balance.

If everyone is a Sith, it would be total chaos and civil war in every dimension, even inside a family (if it exists).  Much like a ffa pvp, backstabbing community.

If everyone is a jedi, we might all starve as we all try to help each other, just a bit too much.

There has to be some selfish folks looking for his own interest, but checked by others so they won't abuse too far.  A few jedis to help out where there is dire trouble.

Originally posted by jusomdude

I'd take a Jedi as a friend over a Sith anyday. Just by the Sith code, you can see that they have a high chance of screwing you over.

While not every one is black and white I'd say a Sith would more likely leave you to die if you were wounded on a battlefield.

Being good is often about self sacrifice for the benefit of others which every Jedi strives to do.

I would never want a Jedi as a friend.  If he acted like a Jedi is supposed to act, he wouldn't help you when you were in a tight spot unless he got approval from the Jedi Masters first.  All a Sith would need in order to help you is the *desire* to do so.  A Sith might leave you if you were wounded, but only if he placed no value on your life.  If you are really friends, he will value your life because you are *his* friend, and he does not leave what is his to die.

Being good is certainly not about self sacrifice for the benefit of others.  Good is about doing what is best for those you care about.  The good man does not sacrifice himself unless that is the only way to preserve what he loves.  What *he* loves.  To sacrifice for a stranger or an enemy is not good, for you deprive those for whom you care of your presence to the benefit of someone you have no reason to value.  It is evil to hurt the ones you love for the benefit of those to whom you owe no allegiance.

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

 

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

lol....wow...you have your own views...that's for sure

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

 

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

 

lol....wow...you have your own views...that's for sure

Do you seriously have to space every 4-5 words with periods every time you post?

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

 

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

 

lol....wow...you have your own views...that's for sure

 

Do you seriously have to space every 4-5 words with periods every time you post?

did you really take time to type that?

see, not everytime........

some people think sith are evil because they are sith, because they are selfish, but does that make you evil? every single person posting here is selfish in some ways, and even if we don't value that, it doesn't make us "evil"

Looking at it, I agree with the sith code more.  I disagree with the jedi code (very disagree) but I don't feel either is evil, they are just different views on life, and there are plenty of different views on life.

Darth Vader is by far the most famous sith... ever.  Was he evil? sure he strangled a lot of bad guys to show he was badass,  but in the end he valued his family, he loved his wife, and he cared about his kids.  Would I go as far as to call him a "good guy"? hell no, he blew up entire planets, he was ruthless, but he still had people he cared about, and in the end gave up his own life for (one of) them.

Would it be pretty amazing if they didn't make sith out as "bad guys" in TOR? yeah! having them simply be different instead of bad opens things up so much more.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by jusomdude

I'd take a Jedi as a friend over a Sith anyday. Just by the Sith code, you can see that they have a high chance of screwing you over.

While not every one is black and white I'd say a Sith would more likely leave you to die if you were wounded on a battlefield.

Being good is often about self sacrifice for the benefit of others which every Jedi strives to do.

 

I would never want a Jedi as a friend.  If he acted like a Jedi is supposed to act, he wouldn't help you when you were in a tight spot unless he got approval from the Jedi Masters first.  All a Sith would need in order to help you is the *desire* to do so.  A Sith might leave you if you were wounded, but only if he placed no value on your life.  If you are really friends, he will value your life because you are *his* friend, and he does not leave what is his to die.

Being good is certainly not about self sacrifice for the benefit of others.  Good is about doing what is best for those you care about.  The good man does not sacrifice himself unless that is the only way to preserve what he loves.  What *he* loves.  To sacrifice for a stranger or an enemy is not good, for you deprive those for whom you care of your presence to the benefit of someone you have no reason to value.  It is evil to hurt the ones you love for the benefit of those to whom you owe no allegiance.

I guess that's what makes an individual great isn't it? They don't always have to do what they're told. A Jedi does not have to get approval for every single action he takes anyways.

You're free to believe whatever you want but I'd have to say the popular belief of what is good is someone who makes personal sacrifices to save a stranger just as if they were someone they were friends with.

It's hard to say who a Jedi would save if he were faced with saving a close friend or his mission objective. I guess that all depends on what he's willing to sacrifice.

Originally posted by Majinash

some people think sith are evil because they are sith, because they are selfish, but does that make you evil? every single person posting here is selfish in some ways, and even if we don't value that, it doesn't make us "evil"

 

Looking at it, I agree with the sith code more.  I disagree with the jedi code (very disagree) but I don't feel either is evil, they are just different views on life, and there are plenty of different views on life.

 

Darth Vader is by far the most famous sith... ever.  Was he evil? sure he strangled a lot of bad guys to show he was badass,  but in the end he valued his family, he loved his wife, and he cared about his kids.  Would I go as far as to call him a "good guy"? hell no, he blew up entire planets, he was ruthless, but he still had people he cared about, and in the end gave up his own life for (one of) them.

Would it be pretty amazing if they didn't make sith out as "bad guys" in TOR? yeah! having them simply be different instead of bad opens things up so much more.

Now, see....(yes I used ... there....sorry flapjack)

I agree here...or see what the point is.

It's all about the grey area. The area where we wonder "is it ok to take for yourself from those who take from you, before they take from you".

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

 

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

 

lol....wow...you have your own views...that's for sure

 

Do you seriously have to space every 4-5 words with periods every time you post?

 

did you really take time to type that?

Not as much time as you take adding periods every few words.

You didn't do it this time, I'm very proud of you.

Clearly good and evil are loaded terms, with different meanings for different people.  To be fair, they can probably not be accurately applied to individual people, but I feel that they can be accurately applied to ideas, and an idea that demands that sentient individuals with the capacity for love sacrifice everything that seperates them from heartless machines is an idea which must be considered evil.  An individual may not be evil for following such an idea, but neither is he worthy of praise.

If you were a force sensitive, the worst a Sith might do to you is end your life.  A Jedi will tell you how to live it.

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by miagisan

this thread is funny...if you know anything about the canon of the sith you wouldn't be saying they were the good guys

 

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Anybody else realize the Jedi are the bad guys?" since I fail to see how those who know anything about the canon of the *Jedi* can claim they are anything but evil.  Many individual Jedi may simply be misguided and indoctrinated, but the order as a whole and the code it follows are vile and repugnant.

 

lol....wow...you have your own views...that's for sure

 

Do you seriously have to space every 4-5 words with periods every time you post?

 

did you really take time to type that?

Not as much time as you take adding periods every few words.

You didn't do it this time, I'm very proud of you.

did you have anything to add here...besides your age and IQ?

move along.....

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Clearly good and evil are loaded terms, with different meanings for different people.  To be fair, they can probably not be accurately applied to individual people, but I feel that they can be accurately applied to ideas, and an idea that demands that sentient individuals with the capacity for love sacrifice everything that seperates them from heartless machines is an idea which must be considered evil.  An individual may not be evil for following such an idea, but neither is he worthy of praise.

If you were a force sensitive, the worst a Sith might do to you is end your life.  A Jedi will tell you how to live it.

This is great...and I understand it.

So now I see where you come from. The Jedi/Sith transition would be hard if they ever made a game where we had to choose realisticly.

(sorry. I did the ..... thing again....my bad)

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Clearly good and evil are loaded terms, with different meanings for different people.  To be fair, they can probably not be accurately applied to individual people, but I feel that they can be accurately applied to ideas, and an idea that demands that sentient individuals with the capacity for love sacrifice everything that seperates them from heartless machines is an idea which must be considered evil.  An individual may not be evil for following such an idea, but neither is he worthy of praise.

If you were a force sensitive, the worst a Sith might do to you is end your life.  A Jedi will tell you how to live it.

If someone were forced to live the Jedi code against their will then I might consider it evil but Jedi follow it by their own will.

Originally posted by jusomdude

I guess that's what makes an individual great isn't it? They don't always have to do what they're told. A Jedi does not have to get approval for every single action he takes anyways.

You're free to believe whatever you want but I'd have to say the popular belief of what is good is someone who makes personal sacrifices to save a stranger just as if they were someone they were friends with.

It's hard to say who a Jedi would save if he were faced with saving a close friend or his mission objective. I guess that all depends on what he's willing to sacrifice.

"Popular" beliefs are seldom reasonable ones, and generally even when the belief itself might be reasonable, the thinking that most of the masses used to reach it was fundamentally flawed.  Correctness via serendipity, rather than through logic.

If a Jedi lived up to the ideal of what he is supposed to be, he would do as he was told rather than save a close friend, because a Jedi is not supposed to have personal motivations, let alone act on them.

Originally posted by jusomdude

If someone were forced to live the Jedi code against their will then I might consider it evil but Jedi follow it by their own will.

Jedi are kidnapped while still small children and spend many years being indoctrinated.  In such an environment, their will is shaped into one unlikely to seek freedom rather than slavery.  Who knows what their will might have been if they were not treated as slaves?

yeah but slaying entire races and enslaving "lesser beings" as servants, while lusting after constant power is truly honorable and the good guys