Originally posted by ZenoLoc

This may be a great game or it may be horrible.  It's too early to tell.

 

The problem is everyone is so obsessed with Bioware that just mentioning them seems to turn everyones brain off about the game being developed and completely focused on the Infinite wisdom of the company making it.  I agree they've done great work in the past but why don't we let them actually complete their first MMORPG before nominating the organization for Sainthood.

Current reaction of Bioware obsessed fans.

The point about their stellar history is that there is no reasonable reason to believe they would fail in producing a good game.  Blizzard had the exact same history, good games, little to no MMO experience and yet they still produced a very good game, with some flaws, but still very good.

They have proven time and again to be a very solid and in my opinion, the best gaming company out there.  They know how to spin a story and keep the player involved.  I have absolutely no reason to believe they can't do the same in a MMO that's based on their forte, STORY TELLING.

Like any other company, Bioware is in the business of making money, but unlike many of the rest, they know that making a GREAT game, nets them more money in the long term than many of the flash in the pan companies like SOE.

All this aside, I like their direction for this game and it's exactly this that has me so darn excitied.  It's a change from the tired old MMO paradigms that have been done to death.

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world.  Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.

 

I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable.  I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.

@ andmiller

What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.

Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.

The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.

You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?

The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).

Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.

And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?

But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world.  Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.

 

I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable.  I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.

@ andmiller

What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.

Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.

The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.

You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?

The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).

Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.

And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?

But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.

Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.

So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?

But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.

What is the point of your comment about "world creation/population?"  What does that have to do with whether or not a game feels like Star Wars?  I loved early SWG, and I still wouldn't say it "got Star Wars right," because Star Wars has always been about Epic Adventure and archetypical characters.  It was the wrong IP for a freeform skill based game, especially when you consider that most of the skills had little or no rooting in the Star Wars mythos.  Creature handlers, while fun for many, just weren't Star Wars.  Also, the Star Wars universe obviously has entertainers, medics, "image designers," but it has never been about them, they are just background.  Fluff, if you will, there to add flavor, but lacking in any real substance.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a sandbox game.  There is nothing wrong with wanting a skill-based game.  There is a lot wrong with having creature handlers instead of droid masters and calling it Star Wars.  There is a lot wrong with the barren desert planet of Tattooine being covered in random urban sprawl and mining rigs, because it wasn't.  If you want a game that lets you build and define your own world, don't use a world that already has a pre-defined history and structure to do it.  Could a sandbox game compatible with Star Wars be made?  Sure, it's possible.  SWG wasn't it.

As for the argument that if they do both a story-driven questing game and a sandbox game they can make more money, that is probably true.  It is also true that it would *cost* substantially more to make, and likely take several extra years of development.  I sincerely doubt there are more players willing to wait 2-3 extra years for a bunch of sandbox play than there are players who want to get into the game as soon as what is planned is finished.

Also, and this is just a suspicion I have, I really doubt BioWare would be any good at creating a sandbox game.  Sandbox games are the polar opposite of what BioWare is known for doing, and doing well, and would require a substantially different skill set, as well as a substantially different mindset.

As for the part of your signature that talks about how sandbox games are more like building out of legos, "themepark" games are more like putting together a puzzle, and you like legos, here is something to think about:  A completed puzzle can often be, except for the faint lines where the pieces come together, a beautiful and moving piece of art.  Stuff built out of legos on the other hand is all blocky, full of sharp edges, and generally looks like crap.

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world.  Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.

 

I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable.  I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.

@ andmiller

What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.

Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.

The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.

You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?

The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).

Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.

And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?

But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.

Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.

So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?

Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.

Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.

So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.

I see far too many people saying it will probably not fail. Unless, your term of failure is very loose, if the game sells over a million and loses 50% or more, I consider that a failure. Now is 500k a healthy goal, yes, but losing 500k is also an outcome of that. Wait, be patient, and don't assume it will be awesome because it's by BioWare.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by HDomni

Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.

So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?

Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.

Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.

So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.

Pretty hasty assumptions. I dismissed nothing before 2003. I enjoy many of the aspects, without them, MMOs today would probably be far different, for better or worse that's anybody's guess. Really I didn't feel SWG gave a SW feel, that's my opinion though, and it differs from person to person.  Plenty of things are worth taking a look at from older MMOs, but considering the large amount of nonsense thats been brough forth, examples, no jedi in ToR, A server with no jedi, sandbox this, sandbox that, jedi jedi jedi. It's getting a bit old. I just don't see many of the vets having credible contributions that make any sense. But please if you can think of a few realistic additions to making the game much happier experience, then please share.

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

I see far too many people saying it will probably not fail. Unless, your term of failure is very loose, if the game sells over a million and loses 50% or more, I consider that a failure. Now is 500k a healthy goal, yes, but losing 500k is also an outcome of that. Wait, be patient, and don't assume it will be awesome because it's by BioWare.

Glad you do, some of us don't. Most of us are just happy to have a game to fall into. Give me 500k people to play with and i'll be more then ecstatic about it.

Originally posted by Blackbandit9

Originally posted by tillamook

Why are they pissy? Because BioWare didn't use certain keywords they wanted to hear in the interviews? (which would have scared off the majority of other MMO players BTW) Does it mean they won’t have elements veterans enjoy? Certainly not. They aren’t making the game just for the 200 people still angry at SOE still wanting pre-cu, and yeah it is like 200 since the rest of us are fine with what we see of TOR so far. But I assume they may take the elements that worked, and do it better for TOR.

 

<Mod Edit>

<Mod Edited>

And guess what, I'm one of the OG haters from SWG who helped make the ultimate SOE hate site (or so SOE thought), except now I just don't give a shit about SWG or the emu, very few of us do actually anymore.

Time to move on. It's been many years and the NGE has run longer than any other version of the game.

And no, more than 200 people just  flat  don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.

Originally posted by tillamook

And no, more than 200 people just  flat  don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by tillamook

And no, more than 200 people just  flat  don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.

 

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

To make my point, most of us just don't care. Though we may feel some of the SOE devs are morons still, me and the players I know of are completely neutral over SOE, we neither love, nor hate them. We just don't give a shit.

There's this book I think the people still angry should read it's called "Don't sweat the small stuff"

Originally posted by eccoton

I do not care if it is not a sandboxx mmo like SWG I can not wait.

www.swtor.com/media/vidcasts/devdispatch002

A good game is a good game, sandbox or themepark. But it is unfair to compare it to SWG since it was SOE who made it, just because it is in the same world doesn't mean that the games have anything else in common.

I will at least try it, Bioware have made a lot of games I loved. :)