Why is it that noone puts out an mmo with the depth and rich storyline of the elder scrolls games?  Instead of the exact same npc, that stands in the same spot, 24/7 for years, saying something about todays shortage of raptor eggs, or some gaurd needing the exact same report, delivered to the exact same person, who is always standing in the exact same place, everyday.  Back in the late 90's when I played uo the npc's moved around a bit more and there ws a shipment schedule for spell reags in stores, but they didn't give quests.  L2 would have there npc's move or say different things with some updates, because the world changed.  But still for the most part they never moved.  SWG had mob layers that randomly spawned and you had to track them down using there waypoints,  And many games have a guard or quest giver that paces back and forhth on a patrol route, but it's always the same.  The AI sucks.  In Elder scrolls if you broke into a house at 4am the npc may be sleeping, and t 9 he,d leave for work, but at 6 he'd be eating dinner and call the gaurds if yout didn't get out.  And if you wanted to talk to a certain npc gaurd you may have to go do something else until he came on duty.  Of course boss's were always the same(but ussualy on different schedules, performing different tasks) but you always needed a strategy to defeat them because what worked to kill them once would need to be changed if they were in a different position.  And whenn you killed a goblin mage with a staff...they'd drop the staff and there robe and whatever else they were using.  The only drawback.  Why can't they make an mmo with the same depth?  I want to interact with actual people, and play an in depth game at the same time. Is  it too much to ask?

TL;DR

Originally posted by durton

Why is it that noone puts out an mmo with the depth and rich storyline of the elder scrolls games?  Instead of the exact same npc, that stands in the same spot, 24/7 for years, saying something about todays shortage of raptor eggs, or some gaurd needing the exact same report, delivered to the exact same person, who is always standing in the exact same place, everyday.  Back in the late 90's when I played uo the npc's moved around a bit more and there ws a shipment schedule for spell reags in stores, but they didn't give quests.  L2 would have there npc's move or say different things with some updates, because the world changed.  But still for the most part they never moved.  SWG had mob layers that randomly spawned and you had to track them down using there waypoints,  And many games have a guard or quest giver that paces back and forhth on a patrol route, but it's always the same.  The AI sucks.  In Elder scrolls if you broke into a house at 4am the npc may be sleeping, and t 9 he,d leave for work, but at 6 he'd be eating dinner and call the gaurds if yout didn't get out.  And if you wanted to talk to a certain npc gaurd you may have to go do something else until he came on duty.  Of course boss's were always the same(but ussualy on different schedules, performing different tasks) but you always needed a strategy to defeat them because what worked to kill them once would need to be changed if they were in a different position.  And whenn you killed a goblin mage with a staff...they'd drop the staff and there robe and whatever else they were using.  The only drawback.  Why can't they make an mmo with the same depth?  I want to interact with actual people, and play an in depth game at the same time. Is  it too much to ask?

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Originally posted by clwoods

 

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Pardon my paragraph composition  professor.   Next time I bitch about video games I'll be more proper.

Originally posted by durton

Originally posted by clwoods

 

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Pardon my paragraph composition  professor.   Next time I bitch about video games I'll be more proper.

Thanks =)

What I think it is, is that developers/investors do not want a 12+ year development cycle on a game or a huge development team. I think the only way to remedy this is to take an already existing engine and world with content and try to add MMO to the game and see how it works out. This way it cuts a lot of the development time. The major issue is that there are so many major differences between an MMO, a multiplayer game, and a single player game. Single player/multi player games only have to keep track of the current surroundings and a few other things on the client to make a game do whatever you want. In an MMO, most of those client-side variables, triggers, ect can not be kept on the client anymore and must be moved to the server so that not only you see a certain action/event but everyone on that server can see it.

Really, I think it will be another 8 to 12 years before we start seeing MMOs with single player type elements in them. Really, the ONLY game that I see on the horizon that has some of these single player persistant elements is Mortal Online. Maybe it will be a revelation for companies looking to strike out into the growing market of MMOs.

Edit: Maybe StarWars: The Old Republic might have some of these elements, I have not looked into that game too much.

Despite Zyllos' post making my eyes hurt, I agree (mostly) on what was said.  I would not give it quite the 8-12 year time.  Look how far the games have come in 10 years.  I would say it would be 5ish years, though a few have promise in the near future.

If we would stop playing games here and start giving it our lives...which we do with every hour we spend. Maybe could could get a good game.

http://www.myspace.com/thehumandonovan

The night day thing annoys players because if they log on for an hour after work but all npc's are asleep they can't do what they want to.

Unique quests require more work, plus they are wastefull in terms of effort per unit (player) appreciation.

Dropping what a mob is actually carrying saturates the game with a small set of loot and takes away hope of a rare drop that doesn't make sense.

In my opinion, realism in games faces an issue analogous to the 'uncanny valley': the closer to realism you get, the less things make sense. To use the example above, why would a goblin shaman be carrying a nice drop. Wouldn't they have it stashed away, or sell it, or wouldn't their boss being a bully take it off them? What's a goblin shaman doing in that cave in the first place? What does he eat, why isn't it out finding food for its familiy. Why is it only a hundred meters from a monster that eats goblins. Why haven't goblins cleared the cave of things they dont like, or beasts they can eat. If the cave is a strong hold, why is it guarded by progressively harder to kill guards, all strategically laid out to allow for them to be picked off? Why can't they see players comming from look outs so when the player is still miles away every goblin in the cave is warned and gets ready? You get the drift.

Originally posted by rounner

 

In my opinion, realism in games faces an issue analogous to the 'uncanny valley': the closer to realism you get, the less things make sense. To use the example above, why would a goblin shaman be carrying a nice drop. Wouldn't they have it stashed away, or sell it, or wouldn't their boss being a bully take it off them? What's a goblin shaman doing in that cave in the first place? What does he eat, why isn't it out finding food for its familiy. Why is it only a hundred meters from a monster that eats goblins. Why haven't goblins cleared the cave of things they dont like, or beasts they can eat. If the cave is a strong hold, why is it guarded by progressively harder to kill guards, all strategically laid out to allow for them to be picked off? Why can't they see players comming from look outs so when the player is still miles away every goblin in the cave is warned and gets ready? You get the drift.

Appearently you haven't played the elder scrolls games that I gave the goblin examples from.

1. Why woulld a goblin shaman be carrying a nice drop and why wouldn;t his boss take it?

A. Because he's using it and his boss with a broadsword doesn't cast spells so he'd have no use for a magic stick that makes your spells hit harder.  Too him it's just a stick.  Even though in those games if a  bandit kills a gaurd on patrol that bandit wil loot the useful items from the gaurd's corpse.

2. Why are they in a cave without killing the things that could kill them?

A.  They live there.  Goblins aren't supposed to be smart.  But they are  survivors so they avoid what would kill them.  Look  at LOTR.  Why do the Goblins live in Moria with th balrog?  They can't kill it, it could kill them but they avoid it. 

3. What do they eat?

Cave mushrooms and cave rats and some have hunters that leave the caves once a day to get food.  And yes, in Elder scrolls oblivion, all you need to do is watch outside the caves you'll see the hunter's leave the cave for food.   They cook them over there fires or eat them raw.  Just hide out and watch them.

4. Why don't they have scouts that warn the others when your coming?

A. They do. thats why you've got to hope you kill them before they warn the others.

5. Why do mobs get tougher as you get deeper in the cave?

In Elder scrolls they dont.  Sure sometimes the boss is tougher than gaurds.  Duh, that is why he's the boss.  And in totally different areas mobs vary in toughness and size.  But that makes sense, A goblin living in a freezing cold area has to adapt, and may eeebe bigger and tougher  than a goblin growing up in the sewer where food is easy to get and it's warm.

So yes i get your drift you aren't talking about the same  game and out of your butt.

I understand that lots of people can only play at  night. But couldn't a gaurd give out a diffferent quest that works the  graveyard shift?  It would add variety.

MMORPGs are dumb and simple, because there is no need for them to evolve. Game is made to bring profit to it's creators, and that's it, so developers do everything they can to satisfy as largest number of people as possible. That is why you don't see many games with age restrictions and that is why you don't see inteligent and challenging games. It need's to be good for the masses...

and lets face it, there's like what? let's say 100 .. or 1000 people on this forum, that would prefer a more realistic, intelligent and challenging gameplay, and they complain about that, and there's like 8 milion players that just finished pressing '1','1','2','3','1','4' on keyboard after 5 hours and are now going to the toilet to take a dump, they gonna have level 54 after another round of '1','1',2','3','1','4' and they are totaly satisfied with it.

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Originally posted by mrkujo
and lets face it, there's like what? let's say 100 .. or 1000 people on this forum, that would prefer a more realistic, intelligent and challenging gameplay, and they complain about that, and there's like 8 milion players that just finished pressing '1','1','2','3','1','4' on keyboard after 5 hours and are now going to the toilet to take a dump, they gonna have level 54 after another round of '1','1',2','3','1','4' and they are totaly satisfied with it.

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There were hundreds of millions of people who ate potatoes or rice every day and were equally satisfied with it because they didn't know anything better. It is only when we get a taste of something better that we realize how bland our last meal was. Innovation is a rare talent, and not everyone can imagine the next better thing. What they have today is just the way things are and most people are content to live with it. They just don't expect much from an MMO. It's not that important. (Thank goodness)

That said, I'm not the least bit interested in realistic, mature, challenging gameplay. My dissatisfaction with current MMOs lies elsewhere.

Originally posted by mrkujo

MMORPGs are dumb and simple, because there is no need for them to evolve. Game is made to bring profit to it's creators, and that's it, so developers do everything they can to satisfy as largest number of people as possible. That is why you don't see many games with age restrictions and that is why you don't see inteligent and challenging games. It need's to be good for the masses...

 

and lets face it, there's like what? let's say 100 .. or 1000 people on this forum, that would prefer a more realistic, intelligent and challenging gameplay, and they complain about that, and there's like 8 milion players that just finished pressing '1','1','2','3','1','4' on keyboard after 5 hours and are now going to the toilet to take a dump, they gonna have level 54 after another round of '1','1',2','3','1','4' and they are totaly satisfied with it.

Hrmm, pretty much agree there.  It is not that it cannot be done it is what happens when you lower the standard for those that do not want it.  Just take a look at DF right now.  It has some bugs ( what MMO released over the years has not ) and the playerbase it both attracts and who LOVE it are die hard fans.  Yet you still get those that go after the game and then trash it for being a load of crap!   It is not that for a large number of players.  To them it is the holy grail of Sandbox FFA PvP MMO!

I was involved in the Vanguard beta from the very beginning.  There was some really good ideas in the game that were going to appeal to a large crowd of players who like more of a challenge in the game.  Stuff like your attacks and chains were different depending on whether you were using slashing or piercing weapons.  The effects of the attack were different.

They also had a rumor system in place.  No floaties over everyone's head, no idle standing NPC sitting around waving at you to come by.  The townsfolk went about their business and did their daily routines ( as wished by the OP ).  You had to talk to the different NPC to find out clues as to who actually had a quest to pcik up.  Something like Joe Farmer saying, "Hi, Nice day out.  I am glad those rabbits are staying away from my farm! Poor Jim Farmer is having a run of bad luck with em.". 

You then go to the Jim Farmer House and find his wife or kid and they point you to out back behind the barn.  That is where you find old Jim Farmer who will then give you a quest for xp and some coing to kill a few rabbits. 

This was fairly static but, it was still pretty interesting.  They added a slew of beta testers in the game and the lazy SOB's started whining about not being able to find quests and it took too long to talk to everyone in town and then have to locate the guy who actually gave out the quests.  They also whined about not liking how the different weapons did not act the same and you could not do the same damage with a piercing attack as a slashing attack and it was whine whine whine whine whine.

Add to it that I think Sony started getting involved about this time and you can see ( even though they swore up and down they were not influincing game design ) a lot of WOWish type things started appearing in the game.  Floaty things over the head of the quest givers....  Quest givers standing around in groups egging you to come over here .... 

They had to completly revamp combat from scratch about 2/3rds of the way through developement.  This lead to the craptastic release the game had.  The reason for that release being so bad, most of the systems in place were put in place the last 6 months of the game developement.  The environment and the rest of the game was in place 2 or 3 years before that.  So, in 6 months they tried to redo what had taken them 3 years to develop originally.

In this case the blame on developement ( IMHO ) should go to the developers for not sticking to their guns and finishing what they started.  Why they caved to WOW pressure is unknown and they may not have had much ground to stand on to begin with.

Well, I wanted to play a mmo after about a two year break, and when I tried out a large number of the new ones, f2p and some trials, I noticed that since the last time absolutely nothing has changed, it is the same game repeated over and over again with different graphics and names, there is totaly no innovation, I really can't belive how easily people get entertained, I just can't enjoy those games....

Originally posted by durton

Why is it that noone puts out an mmo with the depth and rich storyline of the elder scrolls games?  Instead of the exact same npc, that stands in the same spot, 24/7 for years, saying something about todays shortage of raptor eggs, or some gaurd needing the exact same report, delivered to the exact same person, who is always standing in the exact same place, everyday.  Back in the late 90's when I played uo the npc's moved around a bit more and there ws a shipment schedule for spell reags in stores, but they didn't give quests.  L2 would have there npc's move or say different things with some updates, because the world changed.  But still for the most part they never moved.  SWG had mob layers that randomly spawned and you had to track them down using there waypoints,  And many games have a guard or quest giver that paces back and forhth on a patrol route, but it's always the same.  The AI sucks.  In Elder scrolls if you broke into a house at 4am the npc may be sleeping, and t 9 he,d leave for work, but at 6 he'd be eating dinner and call the gaurds if yout didn't get out.  And if you wanted to talk to a certain npc gaurd you may have to go do something else until he came on duty.  Of course boss's were always the same(but ussualy on different schedules, performing different tasks) but you always needed a strategy to defeat them because what worked to kill them once would need to be changed if they were in a different position.  And whenn you killed a goblin mage with a staff...they'd drop the staff and there robe and whatever else they were using.  The only drawback.  Why can't they make an mmo with the same depth?  I want to interact with actual people, and play an in depth game at the same time. Is  it too much to ask?

Yes. A schedule works in a SINGLE player game because you can fast-forward time. Do you really want to wait 8 hours REAL TIME for a NPC to wake up before you can get a quest from him? I don't.

It is painful enough to wait for rare spawn. It would be horrendous to wait for quest NPCs too.

Stuff like scheduled events, random walk paths for npc, and more complex quests, a well written plot just like in plain rpg that has more to it, than just having the biggest level of all, would definately work in mmo games, there are lots of ways to implement those things, without ruining the mmo experience. And when you already have a working engine with all the regular mmorpg stuff is not even hard to implement those things it is really just a matter of few more algorythms and some good writers. But like I said before, there is no need to do this stuff now, since people get easily entertained with even the dumbest form of entertainment producers give them. And it just keeps getting dumber.

Also, people eliminate good ideas at the beginning without thinking them over, because they are scared that it won't work out, only few risk and they profit the most.

We just need to wait for people that like the risk, it always takes some time xD

We will not get more, especially in the realm of innovative features, if we willingly spend 15.00 per month a games that lack, as you say, "depth" and "rich story."

We really need to stand-up.  It sounds more dramatic than it is.  We need to tell these developers that, yes, though we are a minority, many (hundreds of thousands) of us expect "depth" and "rich story."



It is worse than the games are not innovative; they are boring, repetitive, content is redundant, controlled, and linear.

Originally posted by durton

Originally posted by rounner

 

In my opinion, realism in games faces an issue analogous to the 'uncanny valley': the closer to realism you get, the less things make sense. To use the example above, why would a goblin shaman be carrying a nice drop. Wouldn't they have it stashed away, or sell it, or wouldn't their boss being a bully take it off them? What's a goblin shaman doing in that cave in the first place? What does he eat, why isn't it out finding food for its familiy. Why is it only a hundred meters from a monster that eats goblins. Why haven't goblins cleared the cave of things they dont like, or beasts they can eat. If the cave is a strong hold, why is it guarded by progressively harder to kill guards, all strategically laid out to allow for them to be picked off? Why can't they see players comming from look outs so when the player is still miles away every goblin in the cave is warned and gets ready? You get the drift.

 

Appearently you haven't played the elder scrolls games that I gave the goblin examples from.

1. Why woulld a goblin shaman be carrying a nice drop and why wouldn;t his boss take it?

A. Because he's using it and his boss with a broadsword doesn't cast spells so he'd have no use for a magic stick that makes your spells hit harder.  Too him it's just a stick.  Even though in those games if a  bandit kills a gaurd on patrol that bandit wil loot the useful items from the gaurd's corpse.

2. Why are they in a cave without killing the things that could kill them?

A.  They live there.  Goblins aren't supposed to be smart.  But they are  survivors so they avoid what would kill them.  Look  at LOTR.  Why do the Goblins live in Moria with th balrog?  They can't kill it, it could kill them but they avoid it. 

3. What do they eat?

Cave mushrooms and cave rats and some have hunters that leave the caves once a day to get food.  And yes, in Elder scrolls oblivion, all you need to do is watch outside the caves you'll see the hunter's leave the cave for food.   They cook them over there fires or eat them raw.  Just hide out and watch them.

4. Why don't they have scouts that warn the others when your coming?

A. They do. thats why you've got to hope you kill them before they warn the others.

5. Why do mobs get tougher as you get deeper in the cave?

In Elder scrolls they dont.  Sure sometimes the boss is tougher than gaurds.  Duh, that is why he's the boss.  And in totally different areas mobs vary in toughness and size.  But that makes sense, A goblin living in a freezing cold area has to adapt, and may eeebe bigger and tougher  than a goblin growing up in the sewer where food is easy to get and it's warm.

So yes i get your drift you aren't talking about the same  game and out of your butt.

I understand that lots of people can only play at  night. But couldn't a gaurd give out a diffferent quest that works the  graveyard shift?  It would add variety.

 

This wasn't a personal attack. Thanks for the info about goblins but you completely missed my point. I was trying to explain why we may not experience a linear evolution towards realism. If you think a cave full of various beasts and monsters just a mile from a town with a guard and no outlying human settlement makes sense, there's probably no point trying to explain any further.

If I had a penny for every person that whined about wanting more I'd be able to fund a AAA release.

Many of the argtuments that seem to make sense for why noone releases a more in depth game seem to come down to the ideea that companies don't want to lose money when the game goes to market, so they dumb them down.   But honestttly I agree with the rice and potatoes guy.  Its there job to take risks and give us new flavors.  Maybe we'll like them, and maybe not....  But the fact is The Elder Scrolls:Oblivion sold over 3000000 copies the first year.  Transulate that to an mmorpg with consistant updates, patches, expansions, and you've got probably about as many subscribers as wow.  And you get a marketing team that makes clever ads with chuck norris, mr. T, and Ozzy Osborne and you have given life to the next big thing.  So again, I want more!