Originally posted by Umbral

 

Originally posted by Inshalla

 You're the only one arguing as far as I can tell. The rest of us seem to have managed to have a good civil debate on some interesting issues.

So, when you say "Im all for giving weak minded people with low self esteem the right to revolve their whole identity around their sexuality." you are expressing a constructive argument and not a simplictic judgment, right?

I know people like you will find people like me aggravating, annoying, and intimidating. And for you to lash out like this is not at all unexpected.

Not exactly,  I see no intimidation on preconceptions, mistakes and cliches.

But as for your whole outlook on this issue. Its just the typical MTV generation mindset these days. Its the most unoriginal and cliche rhetoric you could possibly drag to the table, and nobody is impressed by it. And its been picked apart and castrated numerous times in this thread by others and myself already, so its not worth going over it again.

See, the "typical MTV generation" may work as a personal offense where you live, but here where I live, this is not even a reality.

Anyway, beside all the personal offenses provocations you tried to throw, there are only a few points related to this discussion.

1-sexuality is part of identity, this is undeniable.

2-you belive the use of these words in a forum will only reinforce the behavior of people who only express themselves to society as a stereotype. I disagree, as even if they are not using these words to define part of themselves, the prohibition of these words will reinforce the bad stigma these words and part of their social behavior have.

3-Heterosexuals and homosexuals are related to cliches and patterns that reflect only the limitation of their personalities, but unfortunately (as you showed here too), it seems to be easier to only accuse homosexuals of this kind of attitude.

4- I disagree with the idea that words related to sexuality are not welcome into a social forum or MMO, this subject will always be around players and even ingame content.

The rest, as I said are only personal attacks, nothing more, but in the end Bioware already made a decision.

 

edit-Ishalla, I am not here to "impress" anyone, I understand all your reasons related to self affirmation, but really this is not what I am looking for, good luck...

  

 

Absolutely its a constructive argument, which I elaborated on at length and a number of posters saw eye to eye with the way I explained it. It just happend to piss YOU off, because my way of putting things in a matter of fact and direct to the point approach is detrimental to your agenda. Well, all of these sound like your problems, not mine.

Where are all these phanton "preconceptions, cliches, and mistakes" you're refering to? Like I said, you have the market cornered on cliches in this thread. Your whole rant sounds like it was ripped out of Tabitha Soren's mouth in 1995. Its not going to inspire anything except yawns, so just save it. And yes you're intimidated. You admited when you first got on this thread that you feel insecure about arguing the actual issues by making it into a personal cross-thread attack (and on the other thread in question you lacked the spine to try to debate an actual issue with me as well). I told you then that I didnt have a problem with that, but now it seems you're getting your feelings hurt and being defensive. Again, all of these are your problems.

As for your points, you just keep repeating yourself over and over again. Its boring and lame, especially when you consider what you type barely even makes sense. We've seen other points of view on this thread that are much better structured than yours and pretty much put yours to bed, but you cant acknowledge them or try to counter (which you couldnt anyways). You tried from the start to make it a personal issue, and then you cry about it when you get attacked back, terrible form in a debate. Its pretty much a watse of time reading anything you type all together IMO.

Those that have never had to deal with discrimination usually have no empathy to those that have had to deal with it in their lives because they just do not understand.   To claim that this is a new era and that things have changed and people are more accepting of another persons sexual orientation is almost laughable.   I can say this because whenever anyone of any notoriety lets known their sexual orientation the news media is all over it and makes a huge deal about it.  

When someone in the gaming community happens to mention their sexual orientation on a forum it isn't because they are making an issue of it in most cases, it is because it just happened to come up during a discussion.   No one is out to push a hidden agenda.   If anything all gay and lesbians wish for is to not be discriminated against, which sadly continues to this day.   Why?  Because some people seem to think what people do in their bedrooms is their business, when it is not.  Is it the gays and lesbians that make it an issue?  Nope.  It is anyone not a homosexual that seems to make it an issue like some of the people that posted in this thread.    

So for those that claim that gays and lesbians have some kind of hidden agenda you're mistaken, all they wish for is for you to stay out of their bedroom just as they stay out of yours.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Inshalla, so many of your posts were so dead on I couldn't chose just one to quote. You my friend are spot on about everything.

Honestly, I'm really tired of seeing this stupid topic. Heated sexuality debates have no place in an MMO forum, and it was complete rubbish that the banning of those words was made an issue. There are far too many people in this world that need to grow a skin.

Really, that's fine that you feel the need to base your entire identity on your sexuality, and can't find anything else about you that makes you "unique", or that you are just that desperate to fit in. The rest of us just realize it's part of our life, and isn't our life entirely. But don't push you agenda on the rest of us, I'm sick of it. I don't feel sorry for you because you are different. I don't feel sorry for your causes because you make yourself out to be a "victim". I don't fall for that crap. 

This whole thing should have never been an issue to begin with. Sexuality talks have nothing to do with MMOs. It is Bioware's forum and they can do whatever they want. Not being able to say the word "gay" or "lesbian" isn't hurting anyone in any way. And above all, a chimp can find a way around any ghey forum filter. Just deal with it.

 

It really must have hit some nerve in you, doesn't it?`You have posted several dozens posts in this now, keeping it alive way beyond any reasonable time, when the entire matter was solved. Your aim to keep gay people invisible is lost. Be a good loser and let it rest.

Look here son, Abrahamm was just agreeing with me, I think you'll find if you manage to actually read the thread that it was me that has posted numerous times, not him.

But regardless of who you meant that for, and I dont really care who it is, Im going to set you straight. Me personally, Im not angry at all if gays want to stand up and riot over this. I really couldnt give a damn. Because everytime issues like this come up, it gives me the opportunity to point out the hypocracy and the stupidity that plague the so-called fundamental concepts dear to these special interest groups. And I will excersize my  right to do so at my own discretion and to an amount that I feel is adequate, and if you have a problem with that, I would hypothesize that you can go fuck yourself. Anyways, on to the main reason it doesnt bother me when mintorities complain about irrelevent issues, because more and more people are getting pissed off about it. That sensitivity training they give you in the American school system, which no doubt still has you in a chastity belt, slowly but surely melts away. The prostestors stop being protestors, they suddenly just look like a mob of very ordinary morons. And so on, I dont think I have to elaborate any further.

If this isn't a "heated" topic. Then why is there 7 pages of posts about it?...

Sexuality talk does not belong on a game forum, imo. It would be like someone starting a guild for people who like doggy style, seriously obserd.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Murdus

"My intention was not to demean anyone but simply to help promote a community that could discuss topics in a mature fashion," he wrote."

Yes because if you want to promote mature discussion, treat us like we're in a 9th grade Gay-Straight Alliance meeting where everyone that uses those words is out to degrade the homosexual communty.

 

Lets just agree that the words should be seen in the content of the post. If someone say he or she is gay or something similar, no problem. If people uses them as an insult, then a ban on the specific person is in order.

SW are made for kids and teens originally so of course isnt sexuality something that is discussed in the movies. To be honest isn't it that important in the game either. I dont care if Jar jar or someone else is gay or whatever, but it isnt really something that the game should be about anyways.

I have nothing against gay people and know a few, but this discussion is kinda silly. Sex is for games like AoC that have adult content, TOR wont have that. Still a total ban on the forum is kinda stupid.

Just because the story was invented by a straight man who only included straight romance themes, doesn't mean the story would or should exclude gay ones.  The story is now being written by a different group of people specifically for this game and knowing Bioware, they always put straight romance themes in their games and it would be really nice if they allowed for a gay option as well.  In other words, only if you choose to strike up that kind of converstaion with a NPC will you even be exposed to it so as not to offend all of the breeders out there.

By the way, I quoted you to emphasize that the Star Wars franchise is chock full of straight romance, despite your belief that it's targeted at pre-pubescent kids.

Originally posted by junzo316

I'm a gay man.  I don't feel I push my "agenda" on anyone.  I would like to have the same rights as married people. (been with the same guy 10 years), but whether its called marriage or not...I DON'T CARE.  This whole thing about bringing the gay issues into a video game is just silly.  I deal with those issues in my real life.  I don't want them in my pixel one, too.  I don't normally talk about being gay in a forum, so I can see why those words were banned.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.  I can understand why. 

 

And, I must say, Inshalla, what are the color of the skies in the world you currently live in?

I'm curious.  For the sake of fairness, why didn't Bioware ban words like straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers and so forth?  All of them can be controversial if you want them to be, yet they singled out gay and lesbian, interesting.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by junzo316

I'm a gay man.  I don't feel I push my "agenda" on anyone.  I would like to have the same rights as married people. (been with the same guy 10 years), but whether its called marriage or not...I DON'T CARE.  This whole thing about bringing the gay issues into a video game is just silly.  I deal with those issues in my real life.  I don't want them in my pixel one, too.  I don't normally talk about being gay in a forum, so I can see why those words were banned.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.  I can understand why. 

 

And, I must say, Inshalla, what are the color of the skies in the world you currently live in?

 

I'm curious.  For the sake of fairness, why didn't Bioware ban words like straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers and so forth?  All of them can be controversial if you want them to be, yet they singled out gay and lesbian, interesting.

Because "straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers" don't parade around their sexuality on SW game forums. If you saw people advertising a beastiality guild or swingers guild, how fast would their posts be locked and banned>???

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by junzo316

I'm a gay man.  I don't feel I push my "agenda" on anyone.  I would like to have the same rights as married people. (been with the same guy 10 years), but whether its called marriage or not...I DON'T CARE.  This whole thing about bringing the gay issues into a video game is just silly.  I deal with those issues in my real life.  I don't want them in my pixel one, too.  I don't normally talk about being gay in a forum, so I can see why those words were banned.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.  I can understand why. 

 

And, I must say, Inshalla, what are the color of the skies in the world you currently live in?

 

I'm curious.  For the sake of fairness, why didn't Bioware ban words like straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers and so forth?  All of them can be controversial if you want them to be, yet they singled out gay and lesbian, interesting.

  Because you seldom if ever even hear of those used. At least I don't ... not sure what forums you go to . :p Gay and lesbian tend to be used in a derogatory manner as well as spring up unwanted hate posts in response to it even being used appropriately. Nothing interesting here just common sense. Just like it was common sense for them to withdraw it from the list of banned words since it was found offensive to be banned even though it was done to cause less headaches. But w/e ... much a do about nothing if you ask me.

Why would anyone want to make a "gay guild": well as i am sure that in other guilds people talk about their day to day lives and loves and there maybe people that would like the annonimity of the internet to finally find people that accept them and allow them to be open about their lives in a non-descriminatory way.  These gay guilds exist in all games but you have to find them on private sites to know about them. I think I know of 20 + rainbow allianced WoW guilds and a few in other games. They are not exclusively for people of homosexual of bisexual orientation, but also for straight people who are accepting and want to be part of a vibrant community.  So if these guilds want to post recruitment blurbs on their chosen game's home forum then I say more power to them. I have seen guilds just for healers, carebears, PKers, women, teens, 25+ year olds, couples, certain religions/races/languages.

Derogatory use of these terms should be delt with by the forum mods... much like use of such terms as black, female, asian, etc. It should not be the word itself that is "dirty" but the context in which the word is used. That is why, afterall, forum mods are employed.

Originally posted by Teala

Those that have never had to deal with discrimination usually have no empathy to those that have had to deal with it in their lives because they just do not understand.   To claim that this is a new era and that things have changed and people are more accepting of another persons sexual orientation is almost laughable.   I can say this because whenever anyone of any notoriety lets known their sexual orientation the news media is all over it and makes a huge deal about it.  

When someone in the gaming community happens to mention their sexual orientation on a forum it isn't because they are making an issue of it in most cases, it is because it just happened to come up during a discussion.   No one is out to push a hidden agenda.   If anything all gay and lesbians wish for is to not be discriminated against, which sadly continues to this day.   Why?  Because some people seem to think what people do in their bedrooms is their business, when it is not.  Is it the gays and lesbians that make it an issue?  Nope.  It is anyone not a homosexual that seems to make it an issue like some of the people that posted in this thread.    

So for those that claim that gays and lesbians have some kind of hidden agenda you're mistaken, all they wish for is for you to stay out of their bedroom just as they stay out of yours.

The most openly antagonized group today are people with Christian beliefs. You will find entire youtube channels dedicated to bashing them, they're openly attacked in unlimited chatrooms and forums at any given time, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who is not a Christian stand up and say that its wrong or that they're being discriminated against. And if you did you would be labled a JC apologist and have 10 or so 14 year old atheists (who dont even know what the word atheist means) calling you dumb for being a creationist, even if you're not one. This is just a fact that anyone with any modern life experience or even has spent a moderate amount of time on the internet will tell you.

Christians today are defined as being uneducated and ignorant. Historically they're assumed the cause of every war for the last 1,500 years, more than 2,000,000 tortures and executions, and any and all cases of child mollestation.

And yet religion topics are not allowed on most MMORPG forums that Ive been to. Something tells me that if Christian people wanted to protest because they couldnt discuss their religion on the TOR forums you would not have any such mentality when it comes to the discrimination THEY have to cope with. Because its just not fashionable to stand up for straight caucasian Christian blue collar dudes.

Originally posted by jadonc

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by junzo316

I'm a gay man.  I don't feel I push my "agenda" on anyone.  I would like to have the same rights as married people. (been with the same guy 10 years), but whether its called marriage or not...I DON'T CARE.  This whole thing about bringing the gay issues into a video game is just silly.  I deal with those issues in my real life.  I don't want them in my pixel one, too.  I don't normally talk about being gay in a forum, so I can see why those words were banned.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.  I can understand why. 

 

And, I must say, Inshalla, what are the color of the skies in the world you currently live in?

 

I'm curious.  For the sake of fairness, why didn't Bioware ban words like straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers and so forth?  All of them can be controversial if you want them to be, yet they singled out gay and lesbian, interesting.

 

Because "straight, breeder, furries, animal lovers" don't parade around their sexuality on SW game forums. If you saw people advertising a beastiality guild or swingers guild, how fast would their posts be locked and banned>???

Straights are always parading around their sexuality in these games and on boards.  Not just from the developers either.  Not only do you see it in story lines, but in the graphics as well.  Guys on these boards making lewd comments about avatar boobs is certainly one of the most common.  Constantly talking about cybering with chicks or guys who play chicks in game.  That's just the crap you see on the boards.  I see even more of this crap in games all the time.  Straight sexuality and behavior is paraded in our face on a daily basis, you just ignore or are blind to it because you aren't bigoted against your own kind.  It won't be any different for SWTOR, it happened in SWG and on their boards too.  You're clueless if you think it will be otherwise.

Inshalla, thanks for shining some light on this forum.  Its rare that I find someone on the internet with whom I agree 100%, and rarer still when they have the sack to be unapologetic about the truth.  My hat's off to you and its good to know there are still a few people out there who have common sense and think with their head rather than their emotions.

Originally posted by Inshalla

Originally posted by Teala
[...] edited for size

The most openly antagonized group today are people with Christian beliefs. You will find entire youtube channels dedicated to bashing them, they're openly attacked in unlimited chatrooms and forums at any given time, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who is not a Christian stand up and say that its wrong or that they're being discriminated against.  [...]

Christians today are defined as being uneducated and ignorant. Historically they're assumed the cause of every war for the last 1,500 years, more than 2,000,000 tortures and executions, and any and all cases of child mollestation.

[...]

Inshala, I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread, even though I might not agree with everything you said. However, this last one is confusing me. First off, in my personal perception, there is much more discrimination eminating from christians towards atheists as far as numbers go. I'm willing to concede that the atheist faction is more vocal and possibly more aggressive, but it's by no means a majority. Being a European living in the US, I sometimes feel uneasy with the 'state religion' over here, but I accept that this is the way of life here, and that is that.

Secondly, you argue that by putting themselves in the roles of victims (yes, I know there is plenty of un-called for victimization going on) gays/lesbians are only perpetuating their existance as unwelcome minorities. I would suggest the same is true for those who feel their religion is the subject of discrimination.

Openly proclaiming ones beliefs draws attention. I say this with no judgement. However, would you not agree that the response elicited from the 'other side' should  be evaluated in a similar manner? Why should religious belief grant immunity to criticism (again, trying to be neutral here) but sexual orientation should not?

If I misunderstood, please set me straight ;)

Originally posted by Inshalla

Originally posted by Teala

Those that have never had to deal with discrimination usually have no empathy to those that have had to deal with it in their lives because they just do not understand.   To claim that this is a new era and that things have changed and people are more accepting of another persons sexual orientation is almost laughable.   I can say this because whenever anyone of any notoriety lets known their sexual orientation the news media is all over it and makes a huge deal about it.  

When someone in the gaming community happens to mention their sexual orientation on a forum it isn't because they are making an issue of it in most cases, it is because it just happened to come up during a discussion.   No one is out to push a hidden agenda.   If anything all gay and lesbians wish for is to not be discriminated against, which sadly continues to this day.   Why?  Because some people seem to think what people do in their bedrooms is their business, when it is not.  Is it the gays and lesbians that make it an issue?  Nope.  It is anyone not a homosexual that seems to make it an issue like some of the people that posted in this thread.    

So for those that claim that gays and lesbians have some kind of hidden agenda you're mistaken, all they wish for is for you to stay out of their bedroom just as they stay out of yours.

 

The most openly antagonized group today are people with Christian beliefs. You will find entire youtube channels dedicated to bashing them, they're openly attacked in unlimited chatrooms and forums at any given time, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who is not a Christian stand up and say that its wrong or that they're being discriminated against. And if you did you would be labled a JC apologist and have 10 or so 14 year old atheists (who dont even know what the word atheist means) calling you dumb for being a creationist, even if you're not one. This is just a fact that anyone with any modern life experience or even has spent a moderate amount of time on the internet will tell you.

Christians today are defined as being uneducated and ignorant. Historically they're assumed the cause of every war for the last 1,500 years, more than 2,000,000 tortures and executions, and any and all cases of child mollestation.

And yet religion topics are not allowed on most MMORPG forums that Ive been to. Something tells me that if Christian people wanted to protest because they couldnt discuss their religion on the TOR forums you would not have any such mentality when it comes to the discrimination THEY have to cope with. Because its just not fashionable to stand up for straight caucasian Christian blue collar dudes.

 

 

Well you let me know when you meet a Christian, because the last one that walked this earth was nailed to a cross and there hasn't been a true Christian alive since then.
 

I find it laughable if not outright despicable that you can even remotely label Christians as victims.  There is no other group in history, even the Nazis, who have persecuted and murdered more  in the name of their religion than Christians.  It has been going on for centuries.  Religion has been the number one excuse for the most horrible atrocities imaginable and Christianity is at the top of that list.  The second worst being Islam.

Banning the words, Gay and Lesbian give them more negative power than any punk who uses them as a curse.  Why, because it's an authority figure that is giving it credence rather than some random schmuck who is meaningless in the scheme of things.

I think you'll find that there are other religions who can compete with the two you mentioned quite easily. Personally (!), I find organized faith dangerous in whichever form it occurs, but this discussion does not really belong here. I would just like to point out that what we now view as barbaric, amoral or evil was once quite en vogue. See human sacrifice, poligamy, marriage of what we nowadays consider minors, marihuana, etc. We style ourselves to be enlightened, but forget that the present is not where history ends. I would wager that morals and our social conduct will change drastically over the next few hundreds or thousands of years. Then people might look back and think of us as barbaric. Who knows? Maybe we'll be worshipping a gay god and denounce all science. ;)

Originally posted by Vrazule

I find it laughable if not outright despicable that you can even remotely label Christians as victims.  There is no other group in history, even the Nazis, who have persecuted and murdered more  in the name of their religion than Christians.  It has been going on for centuries.  Religion has been the number one excuse for the most horrible atrocities imaginable and Christianity is at the top of that list.  The second worst being Islam.

Banning the words, Gay and Lesbian give them more negative power than any punk who uses them as a curse.  Why, because it's an authority figure that is giving it credence rather than some random schmuck who is meaningless in the scheme of things.

Not saying you wrong or right, i dont know, but what deaths and persecution are you assigning to christianity, and what numbers do estimate for each group to reach an opinion that christianity takes the lead? The communist oppression alone in the last century estimated 60 million dead so i always assumed it was the kings, dictators, leaders that were resposible. Looking at all sides of the argument, you could also say christianity has been responsible for more works of good, and freedom than any other group. However, that could be the case because of christianity as a whole rather than a single leader, dictator, or king, as the deaths and persecutions can. Again, I'm not sure of any of this, and I could be wrong, not trying to start an arguement or defend one side..just looking to educate myself. What you posted was something I didnt know.

Originally posted by Vrazule

I find it laughable if not outright despicable that you can even remotely label Christians as victims.  There is no other group in history, even the Nazis, who have persecuted and murdered more  in the name of their religion than Christians.  It has been going on for centuries.  Religion has been the number one excuse for the most horrible atrocities imaginable and Christianity is at the top of that list.  The second worst being Islam.

Banning the words, Gay and Lesbian give them more negative power than any punk who uses them as a curse.  Why, because it's an authority figure that is giving it credence rather than some random schmuck who is meaningless in the scheme of things.

Operative words here being "history" and "in the name of". Neither Christianity nor Islam espouse those values. To blame the good women in the local church chorus for all the atrocities of history is an injustice to them, their religion and historical truth.

Banning the words Gay and Lesbian removes the ability of any punk to use them and  adds a permaban to him for avoiding the word filter if he tries. In that it also prevents discussion of a divisive topic irrelevant to the forums purpose it's a GOOD THING not an attack against freedom. I don't see anyone petitioning in favor of allowing the word "fuckwit" because it prevents fuckwits from discussing how oppressed they are. I guess it pays to be part of a substantial perpetually offended group of people who view everything as a slight no matter how it was meant. You have your symbolic victory but it will be Pyhrric because not only will you be subjected to the abuse by the punks you abhor you'll be reviled for enabling them and causing moderators to be overwhelmed at times with useless work cleaning up after your misapplied principles. GG

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Inshalla

Originally posted by Teala

Those that have never had to deal with discrimination usually have no empathy to those that have had to deal with it in their lives because they just do not understand.   To claim that this is a new era and that things have changed and people are more accepting of another persons sexual orientation is almost laughable.   I can say this because whenever anyone of any notoriety lets known their sexual orientation the news media is all over it and makes a huge deal about it.  

When someone in the gaming community happens to mention their sexual orientation on a forum it isn't because they are making an issue of it in most cases, it is because it just happened to come up during a discussion.   No one is out to push a hidden agenda.   If anything all gay and lesbians wish for is to not be discriminated against, which sadly continues to this day.   Why?  Because some people seem to think what people do in their bedrooms is their business, when it is not.  Is it the gays and lesbians that make it an issue?  Nope.  It is anyone not a homosexual that seems to make it an issue like some of the people that posted in this thread.    

So for those that claim that gays and lesbians have some kind of hidden agenda you're mistaken, all they wish for is for you to stay out of their bedroom just as they stay out of yours.

 

The most openly antagonized group today are people with Christian beliefs. You will find entire youtube channels dedicated to bashing them, they're openly attacked in unlimited chatrooms and forums at any given time, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who is not a Christian stand up and say that its wrong or that they're being discriminated against. And if you did you would be labled a JC apologist and have 10 or so 14 year old atheists (who dont even know what the word atheist means) calling you dumb for being a creationist, even if you're not one. This is just a fact that anyone with any modern life experience or even has spent a moderate amount of time on the internet will tell you.

Christians today are defined as being uneducated and ignorant. Historically they're assumed the cause of every war for the last 1,500 years, more than 2,000,000 tortures and executions, and any and all cases of child mollestation.

And yet religion topics are not allowed on most MMORPG forums that Ive been to. Something tells me that if Christian people wanted to protest because they couldnt discuss their religion on the TOR forums you would not have any such mentality when it comes to the discrimination THEY have to cope with. Because its just not fashionable to stand up for straight caucasian Christian blue collar dudes.

 

 

Well you let me know when you meet a Christian, because the last one that walked this earth was nailed to a cross and there hasn't been a true Christian alive since then.
 

Actually, not to nit pick but he was Jewish.

And to the people who say that christians are one of the more dissaproving and violent groups in history, as others have said, it's important to put that in perspective.

There are many groups out there who have persecuted and killed. And though I don't really believe in organized religion we all have to remember that just because someone is a christian doesn't mean that they automatically get their persecution kit and go out on persecution outings.

As another gentleman above me said, these are individuals in the christian faiths who used  christianity to their own ends. Just like other groups have done.

And though I'm sure there are individuals who still harbor hate for those who they think are different or those who do not follow their faith, there are many more people sitting in those pews who don't hate or want to persecute anyone. they just want to live good lives.

Lastly, I rececelty got to see Joss Whedon speak because he was receiving an award from a Harvard group for secular humanism. When someone asked him about how he feels when he sees organized religion persecuting others he quickly pointed out that though he doesn't believe in organized religion it is not the basic tenets of that religion that are causing this persecution.

Heck, even in a South Park episode regarding the Mormons, the Mormon child indicates that in the end it doesn't matter whether what they believe is true. Becuase of his relitgion he has a firm set of good beliefs and a great family to show for it.

Organized religion can proivide a great many things to those who believe in it. It's those who are truly evil and who truly hate who then latch on to whatever they can in order to use it as a weapon.

Just like a hammer is not a weapon because it's purpose is to build things but in the hands of others it can itbe used to more evil  ends.

Folks, when you discuss homosexuality per se, maybe you do in off-topic. This hasnt anything to do with the unlocking of the TERMS "gay" or "lesbian" at all.

Maybe some mod can show up and move this topic there. When asked I will publicly say I supported that and closing this thread now. ;)