Threads like this are created for one reason, to start a 12 page long arguement. The OP knows there are people who put PvP first and enjoy pvp, this is only to cause hatred on the forums. Either that or he is so narrow minded that he can only see the world from his own point of view and no one elses, but I try not to assume anyone has so little intelligence to live that way.

Originally posted by Pinkerl

Alot of people claim that mmorpg pvp is mind thinking and strategic.. well how strategic, tactical mmorpg pvp is, it all gone down the toilet when high level can one hit you. Also ebayers will always win against legit players so the claim about mmorpg pvp being strategic is bs.

Monthly Fee MMORPG = ebayers win / high level win

Free2Play MMORPG = cashshopper win / high level win

PVP in MMORPG = [b]FAIL[/

 

 

 

 

1.  If you are talking about one shotting people I'd like to know what game that is. No I am not talking about low level pvp either. I'm talking about max level.

2.  You say there is no strategy for PvP in MMO's?   I can only assume this means you run into battle mindlessly mashing buttons, die repeatedly, and then proclaim there is no strategy in MMO's.  In other words becuase you don't use strategy and such,  that must mean the game has no stategy.

3.  You talking about ebayers will always win over legit players, well that would go for PvE also.  So what are you suggesting? Get rid of MMO's entirely?  

I think games like DAOC and EVE have the right idea, designed around PVP with PVE activities for support (DAOC was better at this IMO)

Aside from the botters DAoC was the best mmo I have ever played. I guess I fall in the the casual side of players as I play games to relax if i wanted to worry about somebody trying to kill I would have stayed working the prisons or in the military. The pvp crowd needs a couple good games for themselves but for them to succeed they need to do a much better job of actually making the game enjoyable to newer players instead of killing newbies in the starting zone all day. The game won't last until the pvpers learn to crack down harder on thier casualties of puberty.

Originally posted by karat76

Aside from the botters DAoC was the best mmo I have ever played. I guess I fall in the the casual side of players as I play games to relax if i wanted to worry about somebody trying to kill I would have stayed working the prisons or in the military. The pvp crowd needs a couple good games for themselves but for them to succeed they need to do a much better job of actually making the game enjoyable to newer players instead of killing newbies in the starting zone all day. The game won't last until the pvpers learn to crack down harder on thier casualties of puberty.

Pretty sure Asheron's Call is still going since 1999 with the PvP server being the most popular. Having PvE servers for the players that don't want to die and PvP servers for the people that can take it worked pretty well for the game. You sound like you want to play on a PvP server with PvE rules, thats how you get terrible PvP MMOs.. they try to cater to both crowds on the *PvP* server and end up ruining it for everyone.

Originally posted by karat76

Aside from the botters DAoC was the best mmo I have ever played. I guess I fall in the the casual side of players as I play games to relax if i wanted to worry about somebody trying to kill I would have stayed working the prisons or in the military. The pvp crowd needs a couple good games for themselves but for them to succeed they need to do a much better job of actually making the game enjoyable to newer players instead of killing newbies in the starting zone all day. The game won't last until the pvpers learn to crack down harder on thier casualties of puberty.

casualties of puberty..hehe, good one.

Originally posted by sanders01

 PvP servers on WoW are the most progressed in terms of PVE than any other sever type, and they do usally have a higher pop than PVE/RP servers.

I don't agree with the OP at all.  I'm just wanting to adress this statement.

Out of the 20 highest populated US servers in WoW only 2 are pvp.  Those two are Tichondrius and Mannoroth.  I'm not sure who told you this but they're wrong.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Dude I play Eve I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Pvp>Pve

You're lucky that not EVERYONE in EVE thinks that PvP>PvE, or you would have no carebears making your stuff to PvP WITH.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

AOC may be getting better but thats because they are adding tons of PVE content while putting PVP on the back burner.

sorry PVPers but face it you have a genre already out there for you ... the FPS MMORPGs are ruled by the PVE'rs yes the Carebears as you would call them. its about time you manned up and figure out that the majority want PVP as a mere change of pace and not the whole point of the game.

I think you made the classic mistake of thinking there is one "right" way to make a MMO. I also think you made the classic mistake of thinking "I believe it then most others probably believe it too".

  MMOs are splitting atm as a game genre. If you look at the games comming out then they are more and more made to serve special types of customers and serve the wants and needs of those customers instead of trying to be the WoW killer that have all failed so far.

  For some people PvP really is _the_ purpose of a MMO, for others its a nice thing to do when you feel like it and again for others its a very bad thing to be avoided. The problems appear when a game tries to put all type of MMO players together because their individual tastes will clash and make the game a poor experience for everyone while the devs will try tro appease one group after the other.

Instead of talking about this and that is good then we should begin to demand that MMO developers begin to be really honest about what their visions and target audience is instead of having to go to sites like this and try to find a real answer among the multitutes of personal opinions that rarely is valuable to the game experience "you" are seeking.

First off you need to make a complete game PVE and PvP both are equally need.If you really think that pvp is gimmick look at the two pve games that add pvp after WoW and CoH and see where most of changes in the game are done for now

PvP is gimmick.Ok lets pretend wow decide not add any content for three years.Who start crying first PVEers or PvPers?Who is going to leave first looking for something to do?PvP creates it own content,Pve does not only so many times can you run a dungeon before getting tired of it and some point you do collect all the good armor then what?

You need both dimissing either leads to War(pve) or Lotro(pvp).Games that could way bigger if had not ingore pvp or pve.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

AOC may be getting better but thats because they are adding tons of PVE content while putting PVP on the back burner.

sorry PVPers but face it you have a genre already out there for you ... the FPS MMORPGs are ruled by the PVE'rs yes the Carebears as you would call them. its about time you manned up and figure out that the majority want PVP as a mere change of pace and not the whole point of the game.

You're bad.

Originally posted by stayontarget

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

AoC/WAR are failing because they're both attempts at a PvP class-based themepark.

In my opinion, this subgenre just doesn't work.

If you're going to have a PvP game then it should be sandbox and not subject to the everpresent balance issues that arise from a class-based system. It's what makes EVE great. It's what made UO great (back in the day).

I would not call EVE great, maybe good but not great. And why does pvp has to be in a sandbox....DF failed at this i dont like DF but i have to point out that Darkfall ahs only just come out and has yet to show what it can do and MO has yet to prove itself, along with the rest of them. UO was great to you because that was probably your first mmo. We always remember and think the first game we played was always the best>>>>it's the golden rule no its not as my first MMO experience was Neocron and that game was s*** Also the old version of UO was very different to current fantasy level based MMO's and in many ways was more in-depth.

Anyway to the OP opening post PvP is ahrdly a gimmick as you seem to imply from your topic title and there are only a few true PvP centred games [games that were designed with PvP in mind and PvE as an afterthought] and most of these are doing quite well.

Originally posted by logangregor

 

Ill never play a pve only game.

 

I disagree about pure PvP games failing.

Lineage 2,

WoW wouldnt have near the following if it didnt have pvp.

DAOC endgame was primarily pvp based.

Darkfall has a nice little following.

AION game of the year in Korea PvP based endgame

Chronicles of Spellborn-pvp pvp pvp

Warhammer is doing ok for itself

AOC not doing all that well has absolutely nothing to do with its pvp

 

You are a carebear, dont tell us to man up.

Will WoW suffer if there is no PVP, I dunno, BUT i got the feeling most player do both pvp and pve.  That is the strength of WoW, you got so many aspects of gameplay.
 

DAoC was a RVR game, not PvP.  Its great, both RvR and the PvE are related.  The darkfall (a dungeon) rush merges both PvE and RvR nicely.  Its the implementation of RvR that make DAoC, not just random PvP.

Darkfall?  Forget it.  A few thousand, that is pathetic.

L2 and Aion are success, but it is an integration of pvp and pve in their own manners, not just b/c of pvp alone.

If you have to call people carebear, out of nothing, you need to heal your ego.  Its dying.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

AOC may be getting better but thats because they are adding tons of PVE content while putting PVP on the back burner.

sorry PVPers but face it you have a genre already out there for you ... the FPS MMORPGs are ruled by the PVE'rs yes the Carebears as you would call them. its about time you manned up and figure out that the majority want PVP as a mere change of pace and not the whole point of the game.

Saying any game aspect fails because of game *insert name here* failed is a prime example of flawed reasoning.

There are many aspects which decide whether a game fails to attract a massive audience and keep them in for a long time span.

Lotro is a prime example where pvp is implemented as a secondary aspect to the game. Great game, though I quit after a month because there was no excitement of the possibility of random pvp out in the open world.

Seems you are projecting your own preferences on others.

To me both are just as important.

Here's a Nick Yee poll about PvE, PvP and roleplaying.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001645.php

The general trend is that PvE is favored over PvP by almost 2:1, and that roleplaying is almost as popular as PvP. If you disagree with the poll, feel free to discredit it for whatever reasons you deem appropriate.

Note that the survey interpretation runs for three pages and there is interesting information on each page.

Here's another Nick Yee poll about PvE, PvP and roleplaying preferences.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001466.php

Again the general trend is clearly PvE over PvP. A separate roleplaying question leans in the direction of not roleplaying, but some people seem open to the possibility.

This is a two-pager.

Originally posted by Orthedos

DAoC was a RVR game, not PvP. 

RvR is a form of PvP, Orth.

RVR is just a PR name from Mythic for Faction vs faction.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Orthedos

DAoC was a RVR game, not PvP. 

 

RvR is a form of PvP, Orth.

Yes I understand, BUT, I prefer DAoC type of RvR for several reasons.

There is a realm bonus and a good realm dungeon if you win over the trophies.

There are 3 sides so it can create some very unique combination of events, or chains.

Third, you cannot gank your own side, so there is natural solidarity in your side.  There is less internal conflict b/c the best stuffs are make by players and loots are only used to convert into raw materials.

Fouth, you can only RvR in the frontier and special zones, so no newbie ganking.  You can try to fight thru the frontier gates, but no side ever last long.

I hate the kind of ffa pvp, notably the gankfest type or the backstab type of darkfall.  It does not bring out real pvp, it brings out treachery/

 PVP servers on AOC are BY FAR more populated then the PVE servers.

EVE is the only MMO it's age that is actually GROWING every year.

Failure of "pvp" games isn't the PVP fact. It's the fact the games were sub par. PVP should never be a "gimmick".

For me PVP and it's design in the game world is first. I have to say I feel the OP is completely wrong.