I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

AOC may be getting better but thats because they are adding tons of PVE content while putting PVP on the back burner.

sorry PVPers but face it you have a genre already out there for you ... the FPS MMORPGs are ruled by the PVE'rs yes the Carebears as you would call them. its about time you manned up and figure out that the majority want PVP as a mere change of pace and not the whole point of the game.

Just my opinion but I think you are wrong sir

 PvP servers on WoW are the most progressed in terms of PVE than any other sever type, and they do usally have a higher pop than PVE/RP servers.

 Before WoW, Lineage 2 had the highest active population at over 3.5 million people. i don't doubt most people prefer pve, but I wouldn't say it is failing by any means.

I would guess that the number of PvPers out there are far outnumbered by people primarily interested in PvE.  I could be wrong, but I've never played a MMO with more PvP servers than PvE when there was a choice.

lol, so so very wrong...

wow has corrupted the minds of many, most of these 'failure' games would have been considered a huge success prior to that crap mainstream game... just a fyi

Dude I play Eve I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Pvp>Pve

WWIIOnline, Planetside, EvE and guildwars are four games with I would call successfull MMOs. All centered around PvP. The problem is, game take WoW and try to make  a PvPish version of it. That will not work considering WoW is a PvE game. Fallenearth also has a change to succeed. I have to agree though, PvP centered games will never become mainstream and will stay a ninch. That however does not mean they are doomed to fail.

Also the FPS market is dominated by PvE type of FPS games and not by the PvP type. There are way more Singleplayer FPS games then there are multiplayer FPS games (excluding all those mods who hardly has a following, but even then, my guess is that there are more single player mods then multiplayer mods). Normaly in most game the multiplayer part is a secondary gimmick. It starts to get into the forground now becouse it is a effective way to battle piracy (make content poeple are willing to pay).

So there is noting to admit. PvP games can work as others have proven. Developer just have to think a bit more outside of the box and have to realise that the PvP gamers does not have the same interest as the PvE gamer. WAR made a good step, making sure players could PvP from level 1 and did not forced them to get to max level first by doing PvE. You can even make max level by doing just PvP (it would take a lot longer then doing a lot of mission, but it is posible).

However the games I showed before proven what works best. WWIIOnline and Planetside both have levels, ranks, but they hardly limit the player in what he can do and he can still be as usefull as a veteren. In EvE there is even a role in PvP for a new pilot who is willing to fly into combat with a weaker ship to support there corp. In guildwars you can create a max level toon just to PvP with.

I've never found an MMO yet that the PvE was more fun than the PvP.

Recent "PvP" games have failed for reasons unrelated to the fact that they were PvP oriented. I love PvP, and hated both WAR and AoC.

AoC/WAR are failing because they're both attempts at a PvP class-based themepark.

In my opinion, this subgenre just doesn't work.

If you're going to have a PvP game then it should be sandbox and not subject to the everpresent balance issues that arise from a class-based system. It's what makes EVE great. It's what made UO great (back in the day).

First: AoC and WAR did not fail on PvP's account alone. You can't blame them for making PvP a bit more fun than in previous games. They might have been PvP-heavy but I wouldn't go so far as to say they were based around it.

Second: Played EVE much? There's a PvP-based game that's done quite well.

Third: You can't call a game that is essentially a PvE game with a PvP server a "pure" PvP game. The game was designed primarly for PvE - ofcourse it's shit in PvP! It's very rare to see good sides of both in the same package.

Aye, to the OP, you are wrong sir. Trying to base any MMO off of WoW these days is an almost surefire way to botch your comparison. The success of WoW is due to a number of factions, and very little to do with the actual makeup of the game itself. If you were to make a WoW 2.0, I doubt anywhere near as many people would play it, unless it was a Blizzard product.

That being said, games like EvE, DAoC, UO, CoX, GW, Lineage I & II, etc. have all done very well for their time. The recent failings of this year's MMOs doesn't mean the whole system is botched. There was quite a stir over people wanted to try a 'pvp game for a chance', over WoW's PvE driven game. The fact that developers dropped the ball on this doesn't mean the entire idea is broken, just the designer's execution of it.

Hell, if you look at some of the more popular PvP oriented games (BF2, CoD4), you'll find that they are becoming more and more like MMOs. Levels, progressions, rewards, etc. are becoming a standard. If we get a developer who really understands how to integrate an MMO design into a PvP system, we'll have one very impressive game. Just don't listen to the hype on faith until then.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed

PvP does not FAIL

Developers FAIL

The dance emote is a gimmick.

Jumping in game is a gimmick.

PVP is not,  removing pvp from an MMO would just remove a nessessairy element that would just hinder the longevity of the game.

Pure pvp fails the same way pure pve does, but a mixture of both is required.

You are rather wrong, and all competition in games comes from Player versus Player combat. I have yet to see any tournament on "Who can raid this dungeon the fastest" or "Who can solo this ultimate boss" or anything else PvE related. The people who play PvE are the casual players who are not interested in competition and are just there to "relax", that is why there tends to be more PvE servers then PvP, and the PvP tend to be more populated. Anyone interested in competition doesn't want to have nobody around to compete with, and the people interested in relaxing want just the opposite. PvP is not going to die, and PvE will always be more popular, but without PvP there will be no competitive interest in any game.

This is my own personal experience and thoughts, feel free to prove me wrong. I would love to learn something.

PvE is a means to PvP

ie u PVE to get superior gear to kill people in PVP

this is perhaps one of the most critical reasons people rate WoW classic higher than the new forms of wow.

Warhammer fails beacuse the classes are uniteresting, the spells are pants and there is too much on pointless debuffs very little on utility and very few classes actually feel powerful.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

Who says they failed or are failing?  You?

Your opinion is largely irrelevant unless you're a dev, game executive, or investor.  Only those people can measure a game's success or failure, because only they know about delivery costs, profitability, and the business plan.

You may not like the current crop of PVP-centric games, but that doesn't make them failures.

In my opinion, any game that still has the lights on and people logging into the servers is generating a profit, otherwise it would be a true 'failure' like Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Earth and Beyond, etc.

People on this forum and in this genre use the term 'fail' way too much, and have absolutely no perspective on what it truly means.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

AoC/WAR are failing because they're both attempts at a PvP class-based themepark.

In my opinion, this subgenre just doesn't work.

If you're going to have a PvP game then it should be sandbox and not subject to the everpresent balance issues that arise from a class-based system. It's what makes EVE great. It's what made UO great (back in the day).

I think you hit the nail on the head. Though AoC has a lot of issues that contributed to its failure (lack of content, graphical issues, failure to deliver on promises) your criticism is especially accurate with WAR. Here is game that is relatively complete and bug free, and delivered most of what it promised, yet it has not succeeded. WAR's main fault is that it tries to appeal to  PvPers with a WoW style game, but time and time again it looks like PvP doesn't work in a closed themepark game. Just like a Call of Duty MMO wouldn't work because it would get stale so fast, WAR's pvp doesn't work for the same reason. Boring repetition, no consequences for losing and no real rewards for victory.

Planetside is pretty much just the typical shooter on a much bigger scale, except it has enough to keep people coming back - different factions, a wide variety of weaponry and vehicles (including mechs), and the element of large, guild run operations. Even with that, Planetside is only a modest success.

Successful PvP MMOs have a few things in common. One only needs to look at Eve and SWG (pre nge) for some elements of what makes PvP successful in an MMO. My list:

1. Consequences for death and rewards for victory.

2. Exciting combat.

3. An open, sandbox world where the players make the structural decisions on what PvP is - the game only provides the framework and tools, the players build it.

4.A player run economy that provides depth to the PvP game.

5. A strong PvE component for variety.

6. Factional struggle and conflict between large player organizations, and freedom for those player groups to conduct PvP to their own plan.

How many of those elements does WAR have? Certainly not 1, 3, or 4. 5 is debateable but I think most players see PvE as only important to either level up or gear up for PvP. 2 is purely subjective but I don't particularly find WAR's combat exciting. I think it's to fast paced and frenzied. WAR has factional struggle but the PvP is so one dimensional - there is only one way to win and one way to get there - that 6 is also debatable.

Alot of people claim that mmorpg pvp is mind thinking and strategic.. well how strategic, tactical mmorpg pvp is, it all gone down the toilet when high level can one hit you. Also ebayers will always win against legit players so the claim about mmorpg pvp being strategic is bs.

Monthly Fee MMORPG = ebayers win / high level win

Free2Play MMORPG = cashshopper win / high level win

PVP in MMORPG = [b]FAIL[/b]

If anywho who wants to prove that their good and got skill.... prove it to me by playing Unreal Tournament 3, Street Fighter 4, Midnight Club LA or any non-mmorpg pvp games.

List of non-generic MMORPG PVP that is bs

- Grand Chase.
Fighting game that only high level and cashshopper win. even a if a very skillful lv20 cannot beat lv50 with souped up armors and weapons. you hit them like mosquito bite and they hit you a chunk. you either run away forever or lose to them. If you a sore lose in Smash Bros. Brawl and wish that winning dont determine your skill and wish that you can pay to win.... then Grand Chase is for you. A hardcore ebayer/cashopper level 30 can beat a normal level 50.

- Drift City.
This game might full you of being a racing game which takes skill to win like any other racing games but think again. this game is cashshopper, high level win which over throw human skill. even a lv40 hardcore ebayer and hardcore cashshopper with no skill crash all over the place can beat a normal lv64. Many people even ask to buy each other account just for the status high level. Now think about a hardcore ebayer and hardcore cashshopper can do if they get their hands on a level 90 account? they'll be unstoppable even with poopy skill they have.

- Infinity Online.
This game got the concept right (love fantasy characters pvp arena) but the fun goes down the toilet when high level cashshopper hit you a chunk and you hit them mosquito bite. human skill is overthrown by this.

- Fury.
This game is arena based pvp but then the combat is still poopy like generic mmorpg where you click icons or press numbers and cant dodge a fireball in realtime.

- Guild Wars. this game is arena based pvp but then the combat is still poopy like generic mmorpg where you click icons or press numbers and cant dodge a fireball in realtime. good thing level doesnt mean a thing in this game though cause everyone same lv. (i was told that you can dodge by stepping side way but i think thats not in real time ect.. i played it and a ritualist still hit me with her default nuke ball while i run around)  love for Guild Wars cause its not very level-based like those unbalance pvp in koreans mmo but the combat system is still like generic mmorpg with no true realtime.

List of best PVP

- Soul Calibur 4 online

- Street Fighter 4 online

- Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection online

- Midnight Club LA online

- NFS Undercover online

- Grid online

- every First Person Shooter online

- LOTR Conquest online

- Dynasty Warriors 4's Duel Mode arena player1 vs player2

- Warriors Orochi 2's Tag Team mode player1 vs player2

I'm just hoping for Next-Gen MMORPG's PVP works out.
- Blade and Soul
- Continent of the Ninth
- Mabinogi Heroes
- DC Universe

Untill I see next-gen mmorpg's pvp comes out.... I'll stick with PVP in consoles.

About FPS-PVP VS. MMORPG-PVP.... I prefer ThirdPerson-HackNSlash-PVP but if I must choose between fps-pvp or mmorpg-pvp then I'll choose fps-pvp cause it's more legit that takes human skill to win.

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

I mean really almost every pure PVP game has failed or is failing, PVP servers throughout the MMO scene have always been one of the lowest populated servers in any MMO. heck even games that are PVP lite but still are based around PVP (War and AOC) have failed or are failing.

AOC may be getting better but thats because they are adding tons of PVE content while putting PVP on the back burner.

sorry PVPers but face it you have a genre already out there for you ... the FPS MMORPGs are ruled by the PVE'rs yes the Carebears as you would call them. its about time you manned up and figure out that the majority want PVP as a mere change of pace and not the whole point of the game.

I have to agree.  The mistake many dev's make, I think, is to read message boards and see all the folks clamoring for PVP, FPS, or permadeath and such.  Yet, when those elements are delivered in a game, most folks head out.