I'm wondering if anybody agreees when i say that levels are an impediment to actualy enjoying the game.

I say this because now I have a job. I ca't sit at my computer 12 hours a day grinding levels in any MMO. I just dont want to waste what time I have grinding. I've already done it with WoW when I was younger. It took WEEKS of gametime to acheive the then levelcap of 60. It was at that point I could actualy PLAY THE GAME or at least, the game 90% of other player were.
 

Recently, I've been hearing about lineage 2 and have been thinking about trying it. Unfortunatly theres no trial. From waht i could gleam from their forums, the best way to gain all 70+ of their leels was to kill monsters. So to play the same game that everyone else is, I need to repeatedly kill THOUSANDS of monsters? Are you serious?

In Warhammer Online, I was content playing untill around lvl 14, then I was slowly starting to realise that there was a big grind ahead of me. Already were levels coming slower and slower. Other players where I found them were 10+ levels higher then me and soundly ganked me in the RvR areas. I found a group, but I couldn't help feeling worthless ebcause everyone was a higher level them me. Then around lvl16, I found out that i cant re-visit the previous pvp scenarios. Those were actualy kind of fun sometimes and at least the levels were sort of evened out.

I've also played EQ2 a bit. the grind isn't as bad as other games, but it still wears thin after a while. But, it seemed there were no players around. EVER. I managed to find a great guild that would mentor me and had a few members/alts around my level so we could do dungeons and the sort. But the group and I could be romping around for hours killing things and only get a few levels.

In all these older more aged MMO's it seems like I'm getting punished for starting a new character. Why use levels? Whats the evil in just letting me play the same game everyone else is playing? Universaly, with few exceptions, mmos have the grinding-for-levels game and the get-to-do-all-the-cool-and-advertised-features-on-the-box-or-site game. Clearly, from playing WoW, with most players at all being at the level-cap means that people are still subscribing to play their lvl80 characters, so its not like makeing players grind and sit through such a major time-sink is gaining them a lot of their money anyway.

So why do it? Why cant I start off on nearly the same foot as everyone else? Cant they still make a rich world that everyone WANTS to explore, but would still be a chalenge and fun to play for everyone? I'm not asking to start off in epic gear with maxed out stats and whatnot, I could just aquire that through trade, or  killing monsters, or crafting them myself or some other means and actualy EARN the stuff I have without haveing to worry about it being too high a level. 

Speaking for me personally

I like having some form of progression when i play a character or a role in a game. It gives me a motivation to keep on playing the game.

When i play MMORPGS or MMOs i set goals for myself. Those goals are different depending on the game. It can be anything from reaching the maximum level or to get certain equipment, anything really. If there is no character progression then that is one less goal i can set for myself and one more reason not to play a game that wants to be different. I also don't want character progression being able to be maxed out with a week of intensive play or a month if you work more than 40 hours a week. The faster i can complete my personal goals the faster i will want to move on to something else. I want that feeling back where i want to hang in there for atleast a year or two.

I have seen posts where people say they no longer want classes. They want to be able to change on the spot and be anything they want. I have seen people no longer wanting levels. This is completely opposite direction of what i want out of the genre. Nothing wrong in wanting it different though it just isn't my cup of tea. Chalk it up to not liking change or being stuck in '98 but that's what it mounts to.

What we need is more diversity that caters to different groups of people instead of having one standard. The problem is they all want to compete for WoW's millions of players which is why we won't be seeing any real diversity anytime soon.

if you take out the level progression then you will have another progression system you are behind on to catch up. A new player should never IMO be on the same playing field of a long time player right off the bat.

If the game is gear based then you are going to only be able to really contribute on beginner tier content, because your gear would be too gimp to contribute to high tier gameplay. So you'll have to go through the motions again of progressing through content which everyone has already passed. The only difference this time is that there is no level indicating how far along you are.

Some people have a lot of free time and not much skill.  Those people want to win (like most people).  If winning is based on skill, they'll lose.  If winning is based on whoever has spent the most time grinding levels, they'll win.  Hence, they prefer the latter.  Games where you spend a lot of time grinding levels are made to accommodate such people because there are so many of them.  If you don't like that, then don't play such games.

You cite WoW, but once you reach the level cap in WoW, you've barely gotten anywhere on grinding.  The real grind comes when you take months of raiding for gear.  Do one raid a zillion times to get gear so that you can do the next raid a zillion times, and so forth.  Companies that don't explicitly make you grind levels to play their games usually have some alternative like that.

While most MMORPGs have quite a bit of level grinding, there some that go much lighter on it.  In Guild Wars, for example, you can reach the level cap and have essentially perfect gear in perhaps 10 hours of play time if you're not in a hurry, at least if you start in Factions or Nightfall.  It takes maybe double that if you start in Prophecies.  After reaching the level cap, most of the content is still in front of you, and assumes that you're at the level cap with essentially perfect gear.  That's a stark contrast to most games where, once you reach the level cap, you've already done nearly everything worth doing and might as well quit.

Puzzle Pirates takes the non-grinding to its logical conclusion.  There are experience levels in different puzzles, and they basically don't do anything.  It's not merely that they don't make you very much stronger; they don't make you stronger at all.  Thus what you actually do in the game matters, instead of your level and gear.

Levels give a sense of progression to the gamer.

It also gives an easy way for the programmer to estimate the power of a player character, thus making it a lot easier to balance challenges for the player. That is, unless you do it like in Oblivion - where level hardly says anything about the actual power of the character, but mobs are strictly leveled, forcing the gamer to powergame or end up with an unplayable game where you cant leave the city without getting slaughtered.

The only way to otherwise estimate the actual power of the player character is by forcing some progression on the player - i.e. you have to estimate how far the character in question might have progressed based on a linear game design, or based on assumptions like how far is this area from the starter areas.

In the core, its the problem that roleplaying games are not based on the skills of the gamer himself, like egoshooters, but on the stats of their player character. So what you do in a roleplaying game is improving those stats.

 While everyone does have some good points, character progresion should't be the end-all for a game. Yea, it's nice to work hard to acheive something, be it a player owned house, the level cap, or best gear in the game. But what good is it being the closest thing to god if the game isn't fun? As a Quizzical says, getting gear in WoW is the other grind(and, to be honest, its probably the only two major motivators in the game). I can point to EVE as an example of an ideal level-less system, even though it can take you MONTHS to get all the shiney stuff anyway, you can still contribute. Imagine a lvl 1 character takeing part and haveing just as much a role to play as a lvl90? Sure, in EVE, someone that doesnt have the more advanced skills arent going to play much in the way of specialized roles, but you can still do something. But isnt that a for of character progression as well? Instead of levels, can't we have specialisations? At least in a way that takes the pressure off haveing to sit and do boring repetitive tasks all day long to finaly, someday, be able to play with everyone else. I realy dont mind classes though, I prefer classless, or at least to the point where you can switch between them. But classes are a difrent thing entirly.

To throw a wrench into things.... Supose leveling up in a game entirly depends on your acheivments? What if WoWs acheivment points was your xp? Acheivments are the latest craze going on...

Why force people to achieve things they might not want to do?  You can earn levels through different means.  An acheivement is an acheivement.  Go kill So and so, or climb to the top of X might be fun for some, but plenty of people still find them just filler.  NEVER design a MMO around a gimick and acheivements are a gimmick.  Basing your whole game around it just pigeon holes your playerbase anyway.  If thats what you're going for it works great.  But it depends if you're just making a MMO for people who enjoy one specific part of a game.

Allowing EXP to be gained off a acheivments as an alternative way to advance, WORKS quite well.

Leveling in most mmo's works similar to an extended tutorial.  SO they don't have to dump 40-50 odd skills on you and expect you to learn them all at once.  It also gives you a chance to learn group dynamic and get in some training before you get to what a lot of people consider to be "The real game".

Then for games like City of Heroes, leveling up is most of what the games about.

The Secret World is a game currently in development that isn't going to use the traditional leveling system.  Though in all honesty you will still, most likely, meet certain requirments to aquire different skills so all in all they may just be removing the number attached to your character and nothing more.

Here's a blog article that I wrote a while back about how to eliminate levels as the backbone of MMORPGs. There's plenty of back and forth in the comments section.

The best example that I have of games without levels is EVE Online. While it retains character progression (which I consider to be an impediment), it illustrates how having something practical to do in the game (build up a corporation or alliance) replaces the level grind. Levels are a personal goal. Building a corporation is a shared goal. Having the fundamental motivation of a game's entertainment be a personal goal makes no sense at all to me.

The fundamental reason for levels in a game is to keep the player paying a sub fee.  Thats why many MMO's make you do them.

Strangely enough, you are supposed to be enjoying the leveling process, but understandably some folks don't care for it.

No matter the MMO, all of them have a character progression which is how they keep us playing.  I think you'd find a game without any form of it, i.e. earning gold, gear, levels, skills, etc would be....a first person shooter.

And you can argue that people who prefer levels lack "skill" and its true, they might not have quick hand-eye reflexes which some people judge as 'skill', but others might argue that your skill in quickly leveling a character, creating a good build, learning to use its skills effectively and gearing it out properly is a different sort of skill and takes just as much effort and talent. (if not more so)

FPS games exist for those who really enjoy their style of gameplay, MMO's have traditionally catered to a different (and broader) market.

If everyone else started at level 1, then you are starting off on the same foot.

Honestly, you're just going to have to accept that some people enjoy games with character progression. And for better or worse, that's a pretty common element to many (if not most) MMORPGs.

I'd suggest you ask yourself just what is it about this genre that appeals to you? Furthermore, why do you perceive attaining levels a "grind" but acquiring "epic gear" and "maxed out stats" something you're willing to "earn"?

Perhaps if you can answer these basic questions, you'll be better equipped to appreciate these games for what they are or find another form of entertainment more suitable to your tastes and interests.

I like games without levels. I like games with levels.

I don't find a flaw inherent in the system. If there's a flaw it's in the implementation of the system.

It all depends in what you like in a game.

I like leveling because you as you level:

1. you improve your toon's attributes and skills
2. learn new crafting skills
3. explore new areas
4. do quests; and
5. find better gear

I enjoy the journey, not the endgame.

I usually never complete the endgame content because in most MMO's the endgame focuses on obtaining "epic" gear, almost to the exclusion of everything else.  While most games usually have a different slant on skills and attributes,  they nearly all finish with the same generic endgame that is limited subset of what you could do and achieve while leveling.

As someone else said in this thread, the main reason for levels is to get money from the player, the longer the leveling curve the more money the company gets.

Personally I do not mind a level system.  I like skill systems better because I get to pick what skills I get and which ones to use but I do not mind a good level system.  I am sick of doing the quest grind, sick of doing a million pointless quests but that is for another thread.

As long as the average player likes the level based system, developers will user it.  It makes it easier to balance content.  

A skill based system is the same as a level based system if you really look at it, you have to "level" in both of them, just one (skill based) gives the player more of a choice which is what I find the most fun.

I agree totally with the original poster and do not enjoy levels.  They are nothing more than artificial elements used to keep players subscribed longer.  They also are the reason behind "end game" tunnel vision and why people say things like "the game doesn't start until max level".  Screw that, the game should be fun from the first moment you log in. 

Today it seems as though people have grown so used to the prison of levels that they just don't know what to do when they run out of experience bars to fill up.  The focus seems to have changed from actually playing mmos to filling up little bars and watching them progress.  Once people run out of bars to fill up the game has to change with some other activity to do.  This seems to be when many people start complaining. 

Sure filling experience bars stretches out subscription times, but it also has the tread mill effect and burns people out.  I understand that progression is an important aspect to mmos, but it can be done just as easily in another method that takes the importance away from filling bars up to actually playing the game.  Give out advancement for exploration, conquest, discovery, use of skills, etc.  I would love for games to get away from handing out meaningless tasks that must be completed en masse just to progress a character or anything that requires players to do something repeatedly just to advance. 

Levels are just an artifical measurement of the mechanics underneath the game and imho they detract away from gameplay by putting so much important on what level a player is currently at.

I really enjoyed playing a few games from start to max level, because the gameplay was engaging and entertaining from the start.  However it is getting really old with developers just slapping areas together with enough meaningless tasks designed to fill experience bars only to push you to the next zone with more boring tasks set up to give just the right amount of experience......

I might be old fashioned but Levels are essential for a true MMORPG, either that or some sort of progression.  If you don't like levels go play EVE, if you don't like that type of progression then I don't know what to tell you other then go play second life.  Levels, skill based systems and the hybrids of these systems are designed to be a time sink to keep you entertained and striving for something.  Without them you have Call of Duty 4, Counter Strike, Day of Defeate...etc.  This is my biggest gripe about MMORPG's right now is that they are designed around END GAME, but there really should not be an END GAME.

Back in the days of Pencil and Paper RPG's the end game was when your character finally died and you had to make up a whole new one.  Getting max level was never the goal of Dungeons and Dragons, Rifts, Heros unlimited, hell even Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  The goal of these games were to entertain you, and if you had a good GM you were entertained for YEARS in some cases, and in most cases you never hit the maximum levels.  Heck I think my highest ever Robotech character was 16 when he finally died in game, he had lived through the loss of the SDF-1 and stayed on Earth untill they returned and when the SDF-2 dissapeared and the invid showed up he was still around and finally died helping destroy an invid hive.  In real life time these games took 3 years playing every couple weeks for hours at a time.  It was a great thing to gain a level but just having alot to do at each level was what was important to those games.

So why are there levels, it is so you have some way to judge your progression in most cases, and for others to see your progression.  I personally thought the best use of levels was in Asherons Call, each level was X experiance, as you gained experiance you could spend it on your attributes and skills.  An example would be if you gained 1000 experiance, it may cost you 100 exp to raise strength by 1 point and 100 to raise your Hit points by 1 and 750 experiance to raise your item magic 1 point.  So the level only showed how much experiance you had spent on skills, other then that it was just a number.

I personally like the level numbers for my character it gives me something to strive for, like, "God I want to be level 14".  If i didn't want levels I would play Eve or Second life. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

I agree totally with the original poster and do not enjoy levels.  They are nothing more than artificial elements used to keep players subscribed longer.  They also are the reason behind "end game" tunnel vision and why people say things like "the game doesn't start until max level".  Screw that, the game should be fun from the first moment you log in. 

About a decade ago I was involved with what was termed a "Traditional Dojo".  Yes I'm skipping some detail there because its not useful for this discussion.

Anyway... levels are the MMO equivilant to what they termed "belt schools".

In Martial Arts the philosophy of the "belt school" is that you have to have promotions on a set and regular schedule.  This has two effects:

1) It gives people a sense of advancement.

2) They charge a fee for the promotion (kind of like an expansion in the mmo world).

Now someone who is really interested in something will find their own advancement.  It will come in different forms (personal advancement etc etc) but they will find it on their own.  The "belt school" concept was to mass market something and be able to make a profit.  To be honest most of the "Traditional" schools I ever saw didn't make much if any money in comparison.

So yes that's why we have levels.  Its not just to make it take X time from level 1 -> Max level.  Its to give the "mass market" some idea of advancement.

Things like Alternate Advancement and Raiding for "uber gear" are just variations of the same thing.

I don't think you can "educate" players to want different things (like their own reason to play a game).  Which is why I gave my personal comparison to another "thing"...  This is just how some people are and its probably always been that way.  Just in this case you notice because its affecting something you enjoy or used to enjoy or want a different type of game made.. but the market isn't going that way..etc

I don't find it suprising that if the largest market needs this type of artificial reason to play a game... that developers try to create for that market.

I do find it suprising that we don't see more developers going after the market that has less competition.

I'd love to have a modern day Ultima Online (would prefer a different setting aka future, sci fi or alternate modern world etc) where they allowed you the freedom that UO did... but do everything better.  Yes I know its a lot to wish for...

Originally posted by ianubisi

I like games without levels. I like games with levels.

I don't find a flaw inherent in the system. If there's a flaw it's in the implementation of the system.

Exactly.  When playing a MMO I'm specifically looking for some progression.  If I don't want any, I plop onto a FREE server and play COD4.  There is no flaw in a system that has millions of people happily paying a sub fee month after month.  Lets compare that to all these non-progression based games that have sub-fees=)  Ooops.  There aren't any and those that have tried to remove progression have failed, underperformed or aren't actually videogames that are played for fun.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think you'd find a game without any form of it, i.e. earning gold, gear, levels, skills, etc would be....a first person shooter.

Why do people so often parrot the patently daffy idea that player skill only exists in first person shooters?  Have there never been non-first person games that depended upon the skill of the player?  Is there no player skill involved in Super Mario World?  How about Tetris?  Europa Universalis 2?  Uniracers?

Furthermore, a first person perspective generally means that you're fighting as much with the controls and the camera as with the mobs that you're ostensibly fighting.  That's not my idea of an interesting challenge.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think you'd find a game without any form of it, i.e. earning gold, gear, levels, skills, etc would be....a first person shooter.

 

Why do people so often parrot the patently daffy idea that player skill only exists in first person shooters?  Have there never been non-first person games that depended upon the skill of the player?  Is there no player skill involved in Super Mario World?  How about Tetris?  Europa Universalis 2?  Uniracers?

Furthermore, a first person perspective generally means that you're fighting as much with the controls and the camera as with the mobs that you're ostensibly fighting.  That's not my idea of an interesting challenge.

While that myth drives me mad as well, I really do not see where the guy you quoted said that.

My interpretation of his statement is that by elimination levels, you also eliminate character power progression.  FPS use a 'at the moment' skillset ie.  what matters is how you can utilize the skills you have right now in this instant.  RPGs give strong support to 'ahead of time' skillsets ie if you prepare ahead of time you will e more powerful in the fight.  

Personally, I am not a spontanous person and don't do that well when confronted with suprises.  As such I prefer to win my fights ahead of time.  So if I can win a fight easier by getting better gear and spells ahead of time I will do so rather than risk the outcome on my reaction time and/or luck.  So when people say that a fight takes no skill since you can gear up for it ahead of time, it baffles me since to me the real skill was getting the gear so the fight becomes easier.