What's missing?

Attention and depth to non-combat and/or supporting game systems that give representation to worlds being more interactive by the large AAA companies making MMOs. As the two most recent releases by such companies, WAR and AOC are shining examples of combat focused creative efforts. Comparing their other social, non-combat systems to those of AC or SWG and it is easy to see they fall far short.

Alot of work needs to be done by this industry to just bring those two sides (combat and non-combat) to relative equal levels and provide a rounded, interactive social experience that was a large part of what this genre was founded on.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by socrates656
[...]

1.) There is not enough content in MMOS anymore [...]

2.) Crafting system is simplistic

3.) Game seems simplistic and simple. It's like playing a single player RPG

4.) Game is to easy, no challange whatsoever

5.) Everyone can attain Epic or Rare loot [...]

1. That is because they do high quality 3D stuff. Its a LOT more work and yet gamers dont want to pay more for the MMO, so theres not more developers. Would you accept lower quality graphics for more content ? Maybe some people would. But the game magazines wouldnt, and people refer to those magazines when they choose. Its the same reason why old singleplayer games have more content, or why the old MUDs have so much more content. It was simply much less work to do.
2. I cant say I find the crafting system in the game I'm playing (Vanguard) "simplistic". I am working on getting a maxlevel crafter in each of the 6 possible crafter professions there and it is a lot of work that I still havent finished even if I play since release. And crafting itself is very complex, I remember how confusing it was in the beginning to myself, and I still hear newbies complaining about it a lot, even if crafting itself became so much easier now it aint funny.
3. Not at all. Quite on the contrary, I find Vanguards gameplay the best, even better than D&D. D&D doesnt have finisher actions on critical hits, weaknesses you can exploit, or the various counters the classes have to consider (like Jin for Monk) in Vanguard. Yes D&D has more abilities, at least for Mages. But in Vanguard, every class is that complex, not just the mages.
4. I heard a lot about WoW raids being challenging. No idea if its really true. Anyway, AFAIK even the best guilds in Vanguard fail on the thoughest mobs (overland raids) on a regular basis, simply because a single slacker can cause you fail. My own guild doesnt even have the power to try them - simply not enough people and not well enough geared.
5. Ok this part I dont understand. How can you avoid people getting their hands on "rare or epic" loot ? If they really work for it ? There is a lot of loot in Vanguard where I stand no chance in the world to get my hands on in the next time, but still I got my complete APW armor set.

Ok I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it in an offensive way, but you apparently have not played anything other then "Vanguard"!!! Vanguard is the only game out on the market that does NOT have a "simplistic crafting system". I'm not talking about Vanguard though I'm talking about The majority of new MMO's that are on the market that are "NEW" Vanguard is NOT a new game it's been out for awhile. All of your points are about Vanguard? I am talking about the New MMORPGS that have been released in the last 2 years.

And being a Graphic Designer, Web Developer, and a Computer Programmer I can tell you "High quality 3d stuff" has nothing too do with the amount of content in a MMO

Vanguard is a good game though

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

What's missing?

Attention and depth to non-combat and/or supporting game systems that give representation to worlds being more interactive by the large AAA companies making MMOs. As the two most recent releases by such companies, WAR and AOC are shining examples of combat focused creative efforts. Comparing their other social, non-combat systems to those of AC or SWG and it is easy to see they fall far short.

Alot of work needs to be done by this industry to just bring those two sides (combat and non-combat) to relative equal levels and provide a rounded, interactive social experience that was a large part of what this genre was founded on.

I think you nailed it, for me anyway. This is what I'm wanting in an MMO.

Future mmos should not have official forums.  All they are are cesspools for 1%ers to endlessly complain and attempt to dictate how the game should be for the other 99%.

Nothing adds to the enjoyment of playing an mmo than completely avoiding the official forums.  :D

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by declaredemer

Developers, either on their own or under the guidance of their managers, want us to be drones:  play the same content, before it was raiding, over-and-over again and pay 15.00 a month.

 

So, the developers are brilliant masterminds using some secret mindcontrol marketing tactic that is making millions of MMO gamers pay $15 a month for years to do something that they don't like? Or are you saying tha tthe average MMO gamer is just THAT STUPID that they they'll pay for years for something they do not enjoy?

 

Maybe... and, please, keep an open mind here... maybe the direction of many of today's MMOs is the results of what is most popular among players. Maybe most gamers want a very basic zero-consequence game and they are smart enough to pay for the games that offer that to them. 

 

Isn't it possible that EQ2, WOW and LOTRO are doing well right now because they are giving players what they want?

 

Or do you really really think that MMO gamers are just the most stupid and most easily controlled idiot to walk the face of the earth?

 

 

It's a fact that most of the gamers playing MMO's right now have NO CLUE what it was like to play the richer, more interesting MMO's the past.  Most of them were brought into the genre via WoW, and so that limited feature set is all they expect to see in these games.  They wouldn't know the first thing about what they are missing out on.

I've been around PC gaming online since the beginning, and it's not very old.  The rise in gaming popularity has gone hand in hand with the rise of high speed internet saturation and the growth of the internet.  WoW was the right game at the right time to get the subscriber numbers they had, and probably the biggest reason it has achieved this is because you can play it on just about any computer.  This opened up PC gaming in WoW to most of the computer-owning world.

I have seen more and more ex-wow players on these forums complaining about the lack of innovation in the newer games.  While games like WoW will remain healthy for quite some time, it's also true that the part of the community which is becoming SICK TO DEATH of these hollow shell games is also growing.  Watch how many people end up leaving WoW for Diablo just because it wlil prove more interesting than continuing on with WoW is.

I also believe that the first company who can make an interesting MMO which is somewhere in the middle of being "all themepark" and "all sandbox" will have a goldmine on their hands. It may not reach WoW numbers, but it will still be huge.

I couldn't agree with you more here. Alot of these kids have no clue about the old classics or what real MMO"S were like back in the day. I personally believe that 15 year olds kids, and the combination of casual gamers have ruined the MMO market, but of course I'm just looking for someone to blame and being ignorant at the same time. Ignorance is bliss isnt it?

Complex item/class/skill system. For one thing I loved AO is the minimalistic approach for level-locking items. This allowed players to equip items that devs originaly might not have even thought about them equiping. Also what's wrong with 43 item slots? Ofc it was kinda of cellsheet game, but still overly simplistic systems won't work as fine after something like that. Twinking in AO was a sub game, knowing the right items, best buffs, ways to fit them on your charter to get something else on which in part helped you to get on the item which was your goal.

Any similiar games around btw?

Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

It's a fact that most of the gamers playing MMO's right now have NO CLUE what it was like to play the richer, more interesting MMO's the past.  Most of them were brought into the genre via WoW, and so that limited feature set is all they expect to see in these games.  They wouldn't know the first thing about what they are missing out on.

I've been around PC gaming online since the beginning, and it's not very old.  The rise in gaming popularity has gone hand in hand with the rise of high speed internet saturation and the growth of the internet.  WoW was the right game at the right time to get the subscriber numbers they had, and probably the biggest reason it has achieved this is because you can play it on just about any computer.  This opened up PC gaming in WoW to most of the computer-owning world.

I have seen more and more ex-wow players on these forums complaining about the lack of innovation in the newer games.  While games like WoW will remain healthy for quite some time, it's also true that the part of the community which is becoming SICK TO DEATH of these hollow shell games is also growing.  Watch how many people end up leaving WoW for Diablo just because it wlil prove more interesting than continuing on with WoW is.

I also believe that the first company who can make an interesting MMO which is somewhere in the middle of being "all themepark" and "all sandbox" will have a goldmine on their hands. It may not reach WoW numbers, but it will still be huge.

Richer & more INTERERTING?  I'd bet you a million dollars if you threw 1 million people who started in WOW into EQ or UO circa 98, they'd last about 5 minutes.   What exactly are people missing?  Lousy graphics.  Lousy animation.  Lousy interfaces.  Lousy control.  Lousy direction or none at all.  Lousy instruction.  Little to no actual content besides chatting & camping mob spawns.  Waiting in line in dungeons.  Simplistic and incredibly repetitve battle systems with no interupts or twitch required.  Very limited classes with highly specialized roles, very few actual abilities or wide open skill systems where you eventually end up with about 3 viable options.  Forced grouping.  No soloing at all.  No maps.  No quests.  Heavy penalties.  Long downtime.   Long travel time.  Game breaking bugs that make todays bugs look tame.  Technical problems that also make todays look tame.   The ONLY thing people missed were better communities and that was ONLY because there was one type of MMO gamer back then.  D&D dorks mixed with computer geeks and your rare married person. 

Maybe richer to you means frustrating or tedious or confusing.  Maybe more interesting means lack of direction, when the actual reason was because there was nothing to direct you to.  You sir are viewing old MMOs through VERY thick rose colored goggles.  WOW has certainly become easier and easier over the years, but theres no way you'll get any significant number of people going back to the way MMOs used to play.  Heck, everyone I know doesn't want to go back to that.  They yearn for the community, but thats unrealistic now a days.  Even so, the guild I played with in WOW was just as great as in EQ or DAOC.  People can go play older MMOs anytime they want and none of seen any sort of real resurgence considering all the millions of new players out there.  if they really were that great compared to today, people would do it.  But like everything retro, its NEVER as good as you remember.

People had their chance with Vangaurd and they passed.  It was certainly no better or worse than EQ back in 98, sans graphics.

Josher:

I guess being challenged and having to work to achive something is too much for you.

You are one of those people who complain about shit, have no sense of achivement, and will forever play easy, unsocial games.

I like how you are so ignorant to stereo type EQ players as "D&D dorks mixed with computer geeks and your rare married person."

That shows your maturity, and there is no further reason to argue my point. I'll never get anything through your thick, one-sided head.

My 2 cents, Make AC1 with AoC graphics and maybe a tweek here and there.

Originally posted by CDCosta

Josher:

I guess being challenged and having to work to achive something is too much for you.

You are one of those people who complain about shit, have no sense of achivement, and will forever play easy, unsocial games.

I like how you are so ignorant to stereo type EQ players as "D&D dorks mixed with computer geeks and your rare married person."

That shows your maturity, and there is no further reason to argue my point. I'll never get anything through your thick, one-sided head.

 

 

Game...Set...match, CDCosta.
 

Seriously, Vanguard? The same Vanguard that was taken under the fold of the pariah that is SOE? Vanguard had tons of promise and a huge following. Until it met with SOE. People fled, myself included. The "vision" as McQuaid called it is a good, sound one. People, gamers, are just tired of being thrown over a barrel by companies like SOE. My first thoughts when it was announced of SOE's involvment? 1) how long til they take more than a distribution role (which turned out to be not long at all) and 2) how long til they NGE it. Granted, it hasn't been NGE'd, yet, but I'm sure it won't be long until it is microtransactioned (like EQ and EQ2), which is another approach I don't like.

No, no traditional large MMO company (with a still intact reputation and high degree of credibility) has put forth a serious effort into the type of game we are talking about. That's WHY we are talking about it. If there was one, we'd be playing it because it would take serious time investment and I couldn't be bothered with debating back and forth with the Josher's of the world, lol.

I it is the lack of players getting the things running in the world.

The funnest games I have ever played, and the games that have in my opinion drawn the most awesome player bases are the ones that follow this scheme. You could have bases or castles that need taking over, or give the ability to build cities and conquer them. All of this would be accompished by factions controlled by players.

Let me try to explain this more.

Inter-player dependence is key, but in order for this to exist fully you need to have players with defined roles. Crafters are the most obvious example. Have the crafters build everything that a character needs and more and most importantly, have those items be the if not pretty darn close to the best items available. SWG is a good example of this, I don't know of a more dynamic economy anywhere.

Another key aspect of this is player run factions. These factions can be lore-based and player controlled or player made and player controlled. These factions will probably be huge, but I believe this brings a level of immersion that you won't find in a game like WoW where all you get for having a guild is a tabard and an extra chat channel.

But the main thing that the game needs to have is a shinny mountiantop goal that is only possible under the most extreme organization and effort. I'm not talking about a instance of any sort, but total domination of something. If you are a crafter, you and your crafting buddies being the biggest traders in the game. If your the conquering type, getting control over all of the territory available. Perhaps even a diplomatic sector (which I think would be pretty cool) where you could acheive a position of power and influence. 

The thing is that since it is all player run and only constrained by the effort the player run factions are willing to put in, then what happens is that these lofty goals that are for the most part unattainable, are suddenly seemingly possible and all the more attractive. And the journey to that shinny mountiantop will be the real reward.

Since Im still going strong with this idea, I have to make a hypothetical.

I know that some info is already out for the 40k MMO in the future but bare with me since it is the easiest game for me to get this idea across.

The game will have all the key races, and all. And lets say you want to be a Space Marine. Now then you can join a chapter (only lore based imo). And  this chapter would be cooperatively run by either guilds that would be spread across different companies or one big conglomeration that works together on a much more massive scale.

The goal of the game would be similar to Planetside, having bases available for capture and the ultimate goal being total control of all the planets. As your guild takes over territory you gain bases and bonuses and access to more materials to make more gear and vehicles, etc.

That is the kind of game I can see people playing for an extended period of time and it would never get old (atleast for me). I can just imagine all the rivalries and memorable battles and events that would make it just amazing.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

I was talking to a friend earlier today about things that are really missing in MMOs these days. For the most part I will have to say that MMOs have come a long way in terms of UI layouts and neat little tricks to help out the players, but with all that being said. Todays MMOs and future MMOs from the looks of it, are lacking some of the things that I think made so many of the older MMOs like EQ1 and DAoC stand out, making it seem like something is always missing in the games we play today.

For one I would start of with Character Utility. While its true that they still have buffs you can get from different classes. its not like in the days of EQ1 when a certain class has that one buff or set of buffs you couldnt do without. Even if you didnt have a member of said class in your team you would seek them out.  Everyone who has played EQ1 at least back in the older days remembers seeking out Enchanters for the clarity spells or at higher levels KEI. or a shaman or druid for Spirit of the wolf for a run speed buff.

Along with the buffs, but also part of the utility line of spells were spells like Ressurrection which actually meant something. Or Teleport spells. Dont get me wrong I love having riftways and things making travel easier. But giving classes the ability to go places that were out of the way, gave those classes a service that could be in high demand. Sometimes it could be used for story or fluff even added to gameplay. I know some people would complain that it wasnt fair that those classes could do those things and the class they were playing couldnt. Therefore it wasnt balanced. But in that it also added more distinction between the classes. It gave classes utility that could be used outside of combat. It added to the community as well. I remember making friends with druids and wizards back in the days of EQ that would come pick me up and take me to a far off land. I would donate to them for their time just like you would pay a crafter for their time and effort. But you actually got to know people that would provide their services and sometimes become friends with them.

Another thing I remember was world effects... I know the games today look a thousand times better than back in those days with great lighting and such. But I remember going into a dungeon in EQ that was supposed to be dark and guess what...It actually was dark. I mean I had to go get me a lightstone or have a site buff cast on me by yes another player so I could really actually see in that dungeon. For all the good lighting and shadow effects in games today, they sure seemed to forget that those deep dark dungeons should actually sometimes be dark. I remember back when I watched my first video trailer of EQ2 and them bragging about the lighting effects and shadows playing across the walls and being so excited about how amazing it looked. But you know when the game launched (which in all honesty I did not care for EQ2 and only played it about 5 months) I never experianced the feeling I did when I first fell down a hole in Befallen and was in pitch black darkness I heard the skeletons come for me. I heard my character scream out when he was being hit and then Death... In all that I couldnt see anything due to the fact I was a human and had human eyesite. It was pretty intense. EQ2 never did that for me. Actually no game has since.

In closing I guess I would have to say while many improvements have been made.  There are many elements I personally believe Developers today overlook. Elements that make the game more immersive. Or elements that help to help build community or distinguish people outside of combat not based on some tradeskill that anyone can pick up but something that is based off the decision THEY made when picking their class.

I just figured I would share my thoughts, for all there worth with the community here.

I 100% agree with you .  and tho think if any mmo today were to have thoese elements , heck all of them in the mmos of today.

holy !@#! i would be addicted again like i was in eq

i had a human magician in eq. and i cant began to tell you how many times i was asked to summon bags/arrows/  power rods

you name it.  heck i remember one time a guy asked me to summon an entire suit of armor and sheild and sword just so he could go and get his body back cause he died , and geuss what ./ he was able to.

this is what i really miss from mmos of today. eq had it all , although i didnt like the whole lvl lost from dying or never being able to find people to help you get your body back cause all your gear was on it. 

but never the less. the immersion that you felt from playing  eq back then is 2nd to none.  course it did get a bit out of hand just to level up . but the feeling you got from doing so was so great  cause you could then go get your spells and use them and be th big kid on the block  with a new set of wheels. while everyone eles looked at you with envy . lol i miss thoese days.

and yes  nothing screamed more , 'YOU'ER A NERD"  then being leet ,........

it wasnt about being the best , it was about having fun while playing a game where you felt you could contribute .

you don't see that in todays mmos. not by a long shot !!!!

i blame blizzard for not following the trend.  sony for giving up on continueing. nc soft for  not trying it at least once

mythic for making mmos all about who can kill who .  and gold farming companies for ruining  any chance for that to happen again.

 funny I didnt see this thread till after I made the other one here

I agree there is something missing from mmos these days, and I believe its player driven content.

You can read a GREAT article about whats missing and player driven content here.

Devs dont seem to understand what players are wanting these days. I think its time we kicked it back to the players and put them in control.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

It's a fact that most of the gamers playing MMO's right now have NO CLUE what it was like to play the richer, more interesting MMO's the past.  Most of them were brought into the genre via WoW, and so that limited feature set is all they expect to see in these games.  They wouldn't know the first thing about what they are missing out on.

I've been around PC gaming online since the beginning, and it's not very old.  The rise in gaming popularity has gone hand in hand with the rise of high speed internet saturation and the growth of the internet.  WoW was the right game at the right time to get the subscriber numbers they had, and probably the biggest reason it has achieved this is because you can play it on just about any computer.  This opened up PC gaming in WoW to most of the computer-owning world.

I have seen more and more ex-wow players on these forums complaining about the lack of innovation in the newer games.  While games like WoW will remain healthy for quite some time, it's also true that the part of the community which is becoming SICK TO DEATH of these hollow shell games is also growing.  Watch how many people end up leaving WoW for Diablo just because it wlil prove more interesting than continuing on with WoW is.

I also believe that the first company who can make an interesting MMO which is somewhere in the middle of being "all themepark" and "all sandbox" will have a goldmine on their hands. It may not reach WoW numbers, but it will still be huge.

 

Richer & more INTERERTING?  I'd bet you a million dollars if you threw 1 million people who started in WOW into EQ or UO circa 98, they'd last about 5 minutes.   What exactly are people missing?  Lousy graphics.  Lousy animation.  Lousy interfaces.  Lousy control.  Lousy direction or none at all.  Lousy instruction.  Little to no actual content besides chatting & camping mob spawns.  Waiting in line in dungeons.  Simplistic and incredibly repetitve battle systems with no interupts or twitch required.  Very limited classes with highly specialized roles, very few actual abilities or wide open skill systems where you eventually end up with about 3 viable options.  Forced grouping.  No soloing at all.  No maps.  No quests.  Heavy penalties.  Long downtime.   Long travel time.  Game breaking bugs that make todays bugs look tame.  Technical problems that also make todays look tame.   The ONLY thing people missed were better communities and that was ONLY because there was one type of MMO gamer back then.  D&D dorks mixed with computer geeks and your rare married person. 

Maybe richer to you means frustrating or tedious or confusing.  Maybe more interesting means lack of direction, when the actual reason was because there was nothing to direct you to.  You sir are viewing old MMOs through VERY thick rose colored goggles.  WOW has certainly become easier and easier over the years, but theres no way you'll get any significant number of people going back to the way MMOs used to play.  Heck, everyone I know doesn't want to go back to that.  They yearn for the community, but thats unrealistic now a days.  Even so, the guild I played with in WOW was just as great as in EQ or DAOC.  People can go play older MMOs anytime they want and none of seen any sort of real resurgence considering all the millions of new players out there.  if they really were that great compared to today, people would do it.  But like everything retro, its NEVER as good as you remember.

People had their chance with Vangaurd and they passed.  It was certainly no better or worse than EQ back in 98, sans graphics.

For starters, you cannot compare today's graphics to *ANY* graphics of the past because they have clearly evolved.  Back when those older games were new, their graphics were good at that time.  To try to make this sort of comparison is beyond ludicrous.

I could care less about 1 million WoW players trying an older game.  That's a stupid idea on multiple levels.  What would be a more fair comparison would be giving that million players a NEW, modern game that is as refined as WoW, but also includes community features such as dedicated non-combat classes, rich crafting, freedom to build an individual toon without a boring Arch Class, etc.  You know, some of the deeper features we saw in the older games, but brought up to date for today's gamers.

<------ A.D.D sufferers can stop reading here and move on to their next 5 second activity.  Everyone else continue on. ------->

Many of the other things you listed in your first paragraph are a matter of opinion, or reflect evolution game dev, and cannot be compared to modern games.  To address some of your remarks more directly, I personally do not agree that having my hand held with complete instructions and mini-maps with markers on them is fun.  It takes all the thought out of the game and turns it into a series of yawn-inspiring moments you knew were coming, because the instructions told you so.  I prefer adventure and surprises in my games.  I don't want my hand held to my quest destinations.

Rather than answer all of your moaning gripes, I will just revise what I meant when I said 'more interesting' so you can calm down until your meds kick in.  Really, what I am talking about is FREEDOM.  In the older games, such as SWG, I was free to forge my own adventure in the game.  It doesn't matter whether or not YOU think my game play choices are fun.  It only matters if I think MY game play choices are fun.  I like a game that lets me build a unique character which is more like being an individual in real life, rather than be slammed into a predefined arch class with huge limitations.  I don't care if I am the baddest ass fighter with all the best loot.  I do not need to be a "hero". I just want the freedom, game mechanics and tools to forge my own adventure.  This is the classic argument of the Theme Park Player vs the Sandboxer, although I fall somewhere in the middle.

You sound like a typical theme-park lover who wants to be told exactly where to go and what to do. You want levels and loot drop so you are always working toward some goal.  You want to do instance after instance and collect shiny loot so you can do the next higher instance. You don't explore much, because it's a waste of time when you could be grinding levels in a huge rush to get to cap.  You completely avoid social in-game gatherings and features for the same reason. You may do a little crafting, but you think the crafting in the current crop of games is too slow and tedious, even though it couldn't get much faster or simpler. You are a 'template of the month' player who gets online and figures out exactly what build and gear you need to have so you can have the strongest build possible for your class. You keep your browser opened to a website with all the quests and other info about your current game so you can burn through it with even less effort by having the answers handed to you.  You have considered that if you simply had a video to watch of someone else playing your toon for you, it would only be marginally easier than actually playing the game.

Yes, I am generalizing above, but that pretty much sums up 99% of the Theme Park lovers I have gamed with over the past 5 years.  Where we differ is that I prefer an open world where if I want to be a "boring" shop owner with a dedicated crafter toon, or a ranger/hunter who mostly kills various creatures (PvE) around the game world to sell the resources, I can.  In fact, I may want to do what I did in SWG and create a toon which was more or less an 'outdoorsmen' who enjoyed exploring, hunting, tracking, setting up camps, etc. I would have been owned in PvP vs any pure combat class, and I really didn't care.

Community is not realistic in these newer games because the freedom, game play mechanics, and features have been all but removed or refined down to a useless shadow of the older systems.  The problem is, we haven't seen a game yet that takes the best of both worlds and combines them.  The WoW formula was much easier to copy and develop, so that's what we have been getting.

I personally never touched a pen and paper game like Dungeons and Dragons, and what drew me into MMO's was the promise of virtualized worlds.  The general public flocks to WoW because 1) The game can run on just about anything, and 2) It's so easy, any idiot can play it and have a little fun. Same goes with all the other WoW clones.  We are starting to see some of the backlash of these shallow, hand-holding games.  They are all the same, and after you play two or three themepark games, you realize this and become bored FAST.  The promise of adding more sandboxy community-growing features is that people don't have to get bored with the game as soon as they burn through the current content/expansion.

Vanguard was a horrible launch and the game was a mess.  Most people passed because of this.  I don't know if you noticed through games like Conan, but if a game company hoses a launch, they pretty much seal their fate.  Vangaurd was no exception.

^^^ My god... wall of text.  I was going to read it but got disouraged. 

I will gladly play a sandbox, virtual world MMO that is done right.  However, if my choices are a bad sandbox or a good thempark I will most definetly go with the good game.    I left SWG because it was a very weak sandbox game.  I keep coming back to WoW because it is a really good themepark game.   Give me a solid sandbox game with some meat on it and I will jump at it but till then I will stay with the good games.

It's very simple what is missing:

There hasn't been a game developed over the last 5 years that has an established rule-set, before the game went into production. Developers are worried about graphic engines, features, and content and adlib/wing the underlying character developmental structure.

Personally, I think Turbine missed the mark with Dungeon & Dragons online and basically ruined the franchise. That RULE- SET would've made an awsome open world game. Instead they compartmentalized and stifled adventure by not even having an open worth to explore. Instead they made a glorified hallways with tons of locked doors, each with an adventure behind it.

 Yet, the combat and abilities are awsome.

Turbine and Wizards of the Coast went the cheap route and me and all my friends canceled because the game provided a super constricted feeling.

A game world or MMORPG must be developed around a known rule-set. Then build a world to reflect that...  with game features secondary. Any quality MMORPG released in 2009 and beyond, must have an open world design. CPU power and cluster technology is not an issue anymore. Games should be open and adventurous (IE: Vanguard'esque) with instancing to be at random to enhance a situation. Not as a cheap form of delivering a game to the masses. The lore and content doesn't matter, as long as the game play and combat (aka rule-set) is robust (AD&D) and provides near unlimited choices and diversity.

Has every developer forgotten EQ? in Everquest, when you reached a certain level you were deemed cunning enough in your craft to visit a master and train new abilities. Then, you could spend the next 3 months raising them (Safe fall, swimming, sense heading, dual wield, riposte, Feign death, meditation, etc).

The second problem stems from all the newbies that entered the MMORPG arena since WoW. They have no idea of previous games and how the depth of those games were nixed forever, because Blizzards success has dumbed-down the entire industry and now every developer is chasing $$, instead of making their own special Story.

The formula for a WoW killer is rather easy. I'm just amazed that not one game developer can see it. I've been gaming online since the internet cost $0.25 a MINUTE. So has many of my friends. We all started out back in the Wizardry days on to Warhammer and every game in between.

Hire me.... I'll give you a $25million a month MMORPG... the formula and feature set it's absolutely crystal clear. Developers keep clouding their vision, with things and innovation you can see... thats not the answer for the end user!

Originally posted by MindTrigger

For starters, you cannot compare today's graphics to *ANY* graphics of the past because they have clearly evolved.  Back when those older games were new, their graphics were good at that time.  To try to make this sort of comparison is beyond ludicrous.

I could care less about 1 million WoW players trying an older game.  That's a stupid idea on multiple levels.  What would be a more fair comparison would be giving that million players a NEW, modern game that is as refined as WoW, but also includes community features such as dedicated non-combat classes, rich crafting, freedom to build an individual toon without a boring Arch Class, etc.  You know, some of the deeper features we saw in the older games, but brought up to date for today's gamers.

 

<------ A.D.D sufferers can stop reading here and move on to their next 5 second activity.  Everyone else continue on. ------->

 

Many of the other things you listed in your first paragraph are a matter of opinion, or reflect evolution game dev, and cannot be compared to modern games.  To address some of your remarks more directly, I personally do not agree that having my hand held with complete instructions and mini-maps with markers on them is fun.  It takes all the thought out of the game and turns it into a series of yawn-inspiring moments you knew were coming, because the instructions told you so.  I prefer adventure and surprises in my games.  I don't want my hand held to my quest destinations.

A quest telling you where to go WITHOUT a marker is fine.  You read the quest and it gives you hints as to where to go.  Theres nothing wrong with that.  Its hand holding to tell someone the monster you want to kill is over that hill to the southeast?   No.  But Its STUPID to just be told "a guy named Tim somewhere in the world wants this note.  GOod luck moron!"   Its STUPID to expect people to click on every NPCs in the hopes they have something inportant to say.  Its a complete waste of time and takes NO INTELIGENCE.  Just time.  That's not fun for anyone.   WOW only has quest NPCs marked.  Thats it.  LOTRO, Conan and WAR have everything marked.   In WOW you had to actually ask a guard to point out a specific NPC.  Thats not holding someone by the hand.  That just makes sense. 

Rather than answer all of your moaning gripes, I will just revise what I meant when I said 'more interesting' so you can calm down until your meds kick in.  Really, what I am talking about is FREEDOM.  In the older games, such as SWG, I was free to forge my own adventure in the game.  It doesn't matter whether or not YOU think my game play choices are fun.  It only matters if I think MY game play choices are fun.  I like a game that lets me build a unique character which is more like being an individual in real life, rather than be slammed into a predefined arch class with huge limitations.  I don't care if I am the baddest ass fighter with all the best loot.  I do not need to be a "hero". I just want the freedom, game mechanics and tools to forge my own adventure.  This is the classic argument of the Theme Park Player vs the Sandboxer, although I fall somewhere in the middle.

Well guess what.  Millions of people found WOW fun who never touched a MMO before and NOT because they didn't try.  Only a fraction of that found SWG fun and they weren't enough to keep the game afloat in its current state so SOE had to change it.   You were NEVER a unqiue VIABLE character in UO if you wanted to actually be compete.  If you wanted to compete at all, you had to follow a template.  Otherwise, you were gimped and worthless.  Maybe that was your choice.  Good for you.  You could gimp your character in WOW by the way as well.  Is it fun knowing everyone around you is better than you?  No.  You're a special person to not care about being at a disadvatage. 

You sound like a typical theme-park lover who wants to be told exactly where to go and what to do. You want levels and loot drop so you are always working toward some goal.  You want to do instance after instance and collect shiny loot so you can do the next higher instance. You don't explore much, because it's a waste of time when you could be grinding levels in a huge rush to get to cap.  You completely avoid social in-game gatherings and features for the same reason. You may do a little crafting, but you think the crafting in the current crop of games is too slow and tedious, even though it couldn't get much faster or simpler. You are a 'template of the month' player who gets online and figures out exactly what build and gear you need to have so you can have the strongest build possible for your class. You keep your browser opened to a website with all the quests and other info about your current game so you can burn through it with even less effort by having the answers handed to you.  You have considered that if you simply had a video to watch of someone else playing your toon for you, it would only be marginally easier than actually playing the game.

Nice try.  I never rushed in a MMO in my life.  I rarely consult templates.  I always group with my guild and prefer leveling slower with freinds than playing alone.  I NEVER play alts actually.  ONe character and thats it.  Rarely use FAQs.  I don't play a game thats not fun so I quit as soon as the game becomes boring.  I don't tolerate anything tedious.  My time is too valuable=)

Yes, I am generalizing above, but that pretty much sums up 99% of the Theme Park lovers I have gamed with over the past 5 years.  Where we differ is that I prefer an open world where if I want to be a "boring" shop owner with a dedicated crafter toon, or a ranger/hunter who mostly kills various creatures (PvE) around the game world to sell the resources, I can.  In fact, I may want to do what I did in SWG and create a toon which was more or less an 'outdoorsmen' who enjoyed exploring, hunting, tracking, setting up camps, etc. I would have been owned in PvP vs any pure combat class, and I really didn't care.

Good for you.  You're a dying breed and developers don't care about you anymore.

Community is not realistic in these newer games because the freedom, game play mechanics, and features have been all but removed or refined down to a useless shadow of the older systems.  The problem is, we haven't seen a game yet that takes the best of both worlds and combines them.  The WoW formula was much easier to copy and develop, so that's what we have been getting.

WOW is not easier to develop.  It takes a lot more effort.  Its MUCH easier to create unproven, imbalanced, buggy, easily exploitable systems like in UO and let the players struggle and figure it all out while you take years to fix it.  Thats what you did you know.  FOr years, you were just testing their systems.  What, you didn't know that?  How naive.  

I personally never touched a pen and paper game like Dungeons and Dragons, and what drew me into MMO's was the promise of virtualized worlds.  The general public flocks to WoW because 1) The game can run on just about anything, and 2) It's so easy, any idiot can play it and have a little fun. Same goes with all the other WoW clones.  We are starting to see some of the backlash of these shallow, hand-holding games.  They are all the same, and after you play two or three themepark games, you realize this and become bored FAST.  The promise of adding more sandboxy community-growing features is that people don't have to get bored with the game as soon as they burn through the current content/expansion.

So tell me again whats wrong with a game thats so intutitive, you don't need to read a 300 page manual to figure out how to train a skill?  But you're right about the WOW clones.  They took the WOW template and ruined it by dumbing it down to stupid levels.  They didn't know where to draw the line.  Conan and WAR were pretty darn boring.  WOW wasn't.

Vanguard was a horrible launch and the game was a mess.  Most people passed because of this.  I don't know if you noticed through games like Conan, but if a game company hoses a launch, they pretty much seal their fate.  Vangaurd was no exception.

Vangaurd launched in no worse a state as EQ or UO did.  Broken, buggy and a mess.  You just had no frame of reference back in 98. Broken and buggy was the norm.  Now its not.   WHat, you really thought UO and EQ or AC were polished games?  They were barely beta products released to an ignorant base who had no clue what to expect.  If something like WOW existed at that time, no one would remember what UO or EQ is.  

Originally posted by Josher

Yes, I am generalizing above, but that pretty much sums up 99% of the Theme Park lovers I have gamed with over the past 5 years.  Where we differ is that I prefer an open world where if I want to be a "boring" shop owner with a dedicated crafter toon, or a ranger/hunter who mostly kills various creatures (PvE) around the game world to sell the resources, I can.  In fact, I may want to do what I did in SWG and create a toon which was more or less an 'outdoorsmen' who enjoyed exploring, hunting, tracking, setting up camps, etc. I would have been owned in PvP vs any pure combat class, and I really didn't care.

Good for you.  You're a dying breed and developers don't care about you anymore.

 

I'll let the rest of your reply stand.  You are welcome to your opinion.

I disagree with what you said above in the quote.  The more gamers play WoW and the clones, the more are getting bored with the same old arch class based "square peg in a round hole" approach to player individuality and freedom.  The more they get their hands held to quests, the more the whole thing starts feeling like a treadmill rather than a game since there are no surprises anymore. Also, you really have no idea how many of those millions of WoW players would end up gravitating towards a more sandbox environment until a good sandbox games comes out for them to try. Some people naturally enjoy that stuff, and to assume that everyone who plays WoW would automatically hate it is retarded.  Even if only 500,000 of WoW's players would like such a game, combined with all the sandboxers who hate WoW, would make a good sized niche MMO.

Sure, there will always be a steady influx of new gamers for the simpler MMO's, but they won't be sustaining numbers like WoW is today.  I think a ton of people are going to leave WoW for Diablo if Diablo turns out to be a good game and is playable on most of the same computer specs as WoW. I believe a lot of the players stick around in WoW because there is nothing else worth leaving it for yet.

I did play Wow through to 70, and I had a good time.  I don't hate or blame WoW, I just hate what has become of the genre. When I hit 70, I looked around and was faced with re-rolling or giving up the rest of my free time to become raider, which sounded boring as hell to me.  I canceled my sub and moved on. In my guild there were a ton of people who just logged in every day out of habbit.  They had already maxed all their toon slots and didn't know what else to do with themselves. 

I fully expect my next MMO to be a niche game, and I'm good with that.  I'm looking at Earthrise, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, and possibly Darkfall if it matures in the right direction.  We will have the big players like Blizzard with WoW, but we will also have 'boutique' MMO's for those of us who expect more than a glorifed treadmill /  video poker game.

I want there to be MMOs for everyone.  I don't want to take away MMOs that you might enjoy.   Just don't expect AAA developers to cater to an audience that can't keep their games afloat.   I don't want more WOW clones either.  I want my next MMO to be better than WOW.  MUCH better than WOW.   Take what WOW did right and make it better.  Take what they did wrong and throw it out the window, just like BLizzard did with EQ and DAOC.  But bringing back old antiquated gameplay elements will NOT make MMOs better.  It'll just bring back what everyone grew to hate.   But everryone likes what they like.  Some people enjoy the tedium.  SOme enjoy time consuming elements.  Some want to live in a game that consumes their lives.   Most don't.  Not anymore.