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The mystery and tragedy of the destruction of immersion in MMORPGs has created a vacuum of creativity. Truly innovative concepts, features, tools, and so forth are lacking, missing, and absent in today's MMORPGs. I know because I have tried just about all of them. And, frankly, they all "feel" and "play" the same.
It has left the gaming community suspicious, skeptical, and even distrustful of the industry in general. Many among us, and I include myself in this group, will not try games until a trial version is released. Why? We have been burned by incomplete, buggy, and, perhaps worse of all, sameness in "new" MMORPGs.
It is less what we want --immersion, customization, deep Questing, player empowerment tools-- than what developers can create; i.e., bringing not only new forms and styles to MMORPGs but bringing in a larger audience as well. The industry has room, a great deal of room, to grow. The linear MMORPG, however, has little room to grow and will not bring in new customers.
New Products = New Customers Innovation = Evolution
Same Product = Same Customers Payment Schemes = De-evolution
We are excited about innovation in this industry, and we want to developers use their collective creative energies to take gameplay to new, different, and fascinating levels. Worlds that feel real not only through the use of technology but by making players a part of it. Player characters with personalities, attributes, and appearances different from all others. Quests that are truly a Quest whose outcome results in something substantial in the world and/or the Hero. Speaking of which, Heroes who are Heroes and not gods. Heroes, together, try to defeat gods; not to become one. And, those who do try to become one, should they succeed, should have unique and difficult challenges. Let's bring life, energy, creativity, and innovation into MMORPG creation again. Let's bring in that spirit of creation that goes hand-in-hand with accomplishment. Yet our accomplishment should not be measured, per se, but how many addicts we have or subscribers but by how truly powerful the MMORPG experience is. The MMORPG industry needs to innovate and create new, and different, experiences in the MMORPG world
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4/29/09 7:53:33 AM#2
Not everybody is looking for innovation. Just fresh new challenges that's entertaining. I could care less about seeing something completely new never seen in the genre before. I just want a fun well polished game. You wants and needs does not surpass anybody elses nor is it more important. Infact i hate the direction MMOs are taking and wish we could go backwards. Todays technology and graphics coupled with old school EQ UO style of gameplay.
To be honest i don't play MMOs to be drawn in to this huge imaginary world where i feel like one of the inhabitants. Single player games has and always will do it better. Once you start dealing with L33t $n1p3r d00d_001 then whatever immersion the game is trying to convey will be completely gone. Immersion will always belong to single player games. |
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4/29/09 8:11:38 AM#3
I agree with some of the things Fibsdk said, I like innovation don't get me wrong but above all i want my games to be entertaining. I don't wish for a second life or another job when i play a game. Creating vast game worlds with huge amount of content that would take you 10 lifetimes to complete doesn't equal fun, or being forced to make your own weapon/armor/shoe/arrow or whatever by browsing through an seemingly endless amounts of menus and sub-menus doesn't make it a more immersed gameplay, at least not to me. I also feel that you don't necessarily need new products to bring in new people, you just need new content to keep the players that you have interested. A MMO isn't build on new things alone, if you can't keep a somewhat stable community then most of the efforts going into the game are wasted because players that like a game will most likely tell friends that may or may not join(which in my opinion is far better than constant advertising) Creating a work of art/fiction that is innovate may sound nice/appealing but it isn't something something so easily achievable. |
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4/29/09 8:23:46 AM#4
MMORPG companies don't do this nearly so flagrantly as Capcom and EA used to do (and the latter still does, I gather). How many different Street Fighter 2 games did Capcom try to sell, with mostly the same characters using the same moves? Not even Street Fighter 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, like they did with Mega Man games, but Street Fighter 2 with some slight edition modifications. Meanwhile, EA would put out some awful sports games and then re-release them every year. I remember seeing a used game shop with an entire table filled with EA sports games that they were trying to sell for $5 each, which was pretty much the cheapest they'd try to get rid of anything in the store. They had to try to sell cheap, because everyone wanted to get rid of them and no one wanted to buy them, not merely because there was a newer version out, but because they were so awful. For example, in the basketball game of theirs that I have, if you pause the game immediately after the opening jump ball and check your rosters, you'll find that most of your players are already tired and need to come out. |
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4/29/09 8:24:47 AM#5
I have a few words for you and i mean them in a positive manner - Go Do It! If you are tired of the current situation, go and change it. Go design that new and exiting universe, go create the standards that need to be attained and show the world what needs to be done to make gaming better than it is today. Find the people like yourself that can fill in the skills that you lack to move the idea forward to a full concept and then finally to a finished product to show what can be done. Jumping in here and posting something like this is great, but unless you or whoever else feels the same way is willing to step up to the mark and help create these changes in the industry then why should developers do anything different when what they do already that makes them money. You seem to feel strongly about this, so go do it! It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays. |
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4/29/09 8:30:28 AM#6
Originally posted by Fibsdk
You're not alone in that view.
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4/29/09 10:26:28 AM#7
Something that constantly gets over looked, is that it may be the same old product, but it's not the same old people. New MMORPG players are born every day. Remember how exciting it was to play an MMORPG for the very first time? Millions (or hundereds of thousands, I don't know the actual number) of players each year still get that experience from current MMORPGs. You don't need something new and innovative for those players. They are not jaded and tired of the same old game mechanics like you are. We're looking for games geared towards veteran players, but the market still seems to be catering to the new comers that arent' burned out on the genre yet, and never will be, because they are constantly replaced.
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4/29/09 10:30:32 AM#8
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
I some what agree with that. I might also add that for alot of new or newer players to mmo's WOW was alot of peoples gateway to the genre and if that is the case then perhaps those gamers are tired of the same thing considering WOW is 5 years old now. |
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4/29/09 10:32:29 AM#9
Innovations is not the same as evolution. evolution comes more often than innovation, innovations usually take longer, and many more evolutions before it become..good.
Your entire base argument is wrong, and soley based on your small piece of the perspective pie. Simply put, most people do not want innovation, as the innovative games die (Seed, ryzom, countless others), because people complain that its too different, or is lacking features of other games.
Meanwhile, developers are giving people exactly what they want. As evidenced by the evolution and refinement, as well as copy's of the DIKU game. This isn't debatable, its right in front of you. The genre is evolving, in game play, ideas, and designs, as well as payment types, something you , are proving my point on. Micotransactions is innovation, you don't want it. You feel its inferior, when its part of the most froward looking thing that has happened lately.
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4/29/09 10:56:32 AM#10
Well MOST people dont play mmos to begin with. Most innovative mmos that have failed didnt fail because people didnt like that they were different they failed because they were just not great games. There is plenty of room on the market for success with innovation.But for that to happen it has to be coupled with accesablilty, fun, lack of bugs and good word of mouth and marketing.
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4/29/09 11:13:55 AM#11
Originally posted by blueturtle13
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true. We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it. The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
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4/29/09 11:23:04 AM#12
Most people on this forum claim they want "innovasion" but what they really want is just how things were pre-WoW and anything that are in some way related to or simillar to WoW is regarded as not innovative even though it is. If WoW = The Beatles |
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
4/29/09 11:24:15 AM#13
I have to agree, "people" say they want new, fun things, yet if something comes out that really is different it tends to be shunned. Early adopters are rare and don't make for a good business model sometimes. They don't really want a return to the old ways either. I recall when VG came out there was much hue and cry about the too long travel times, and the corpse runs. How many people enjoy games that actually take experience away from you when you die. Are there still any games that to do it anymore (that aren't old school) People tend to flock to certain styles of games, movies, food etc, and rare is the item that can truely innovate a market, especially if it is the first one in the pool. So often is the case, the early trend setters die off, and someone comes along to sell it again with improvements once the public becomes more acclimated to the idea.
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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4/29/09 11:24:25 AM#14
Originally posted by Papadam
There is also that, but that is:
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The discussion we are having is actually more revealing for me than you might realize, and it is becoming strikingly personal.
The commercialization, and widespread accessibility, of MMORPGs, in my view, has undermined the features for why I enjoyed MMORPGs so much in the first place:
The standard is, seemingly:
In truth, I am increasingly prepared to concede:
*Edit: As a matter of fact, this could be my longest, and now a seemingly permanent run, at never subscribing to a MMORPG. Frankly, I am somewhat "waiting" for classic SWG servers to be released. Sad, yet true. |
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4/29/09 11:43:56 AM#16
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true. We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it. The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention. We get so many clones because EQ was a hit and WOW is a monster. Clones of those two games are made so much because those two proved you can make money doing it. That is how mmo's get made. An investor giving money to people who want to make one. To get that money the shareholders have to be convinced they will get a return on their investment. Thats why so many fps' are the made and so many specialFX summer movies are made. They are safe. The % is in their favor to get a return on their investment. What might happen to really change the mmo landscape is for a group of people with alot of money to make their own mmo in their vision answering to noone but themselves. Perhaps like 38 studios? |
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4/29/09 11:55:24 AM#17
Originally posted by blueturtle13 Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention.
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past. Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen". There IS innovation in the current gen, your (not you you, you as in, most people on this site) just not paying attention to it, because it doesn't come from the big 5 dev houses. Case and point: http://www.wurmonline.com/ Why are you guys not playing that?
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4/29/09 12:00:49 PM#18
Originally posted by declaredemer I'm sorry, you are extremely jaded (No offence), and are putting forth your personal, subjective views as facts. Case in point, a good number of people would completely disagree with you, like myself, for i feel LOTRO has everything your looking for on your list. You will tell me it does not, even if it does more than just about any other game out right now, but here in is the subjective part.
LOTRO has:
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4/29/09 12:03:17 PM#19
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention.
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past. Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen".
Vanguard was mentioned because you said people will play a bugging piece of sh@@ if they think it is fun. I disagree. Vanguard we ALL know wasnt meant to be different. Brad made it. He went back to what he helped create to begin with lol |
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4/29/09 12:06:27 PM#20
Originally posted by blueturtle13
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past. Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen".
Vanguard was mentioned because you said people will play a bugging piece of sh@@ if they think it is fun. I disagree. Vanguard we ALL know wasnt meant to be different. Brad made it. He went back to what he helped create to begin with lol
People play vanguard, they also play shadowbane and a host of other fun, but buggy pices of crap. I see your edit, Vanguard was diffrent, becouse it was patterned after 10 year old concepts. It was compleatly diffrent that the current gen, and the evolutions of that gen. Get my point? |
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