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Originally posted by Dkompoze

NO ONE WANTS TO DEBATE BECAUSE THEIS HAS BEEN DEBATED PLENTY OF TIMES AND ITS OLD NEWS-- GET A LIFE !!!

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dang my tin foil hat fell off only for a moment but you still read my mind anyhow

or

QFE

depending on your mood (or in my case sense of humour hehe)
 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

 
I don't think it's true that Sony and SOE have done no wrong. 

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100% of posters in this thread have agreed with this statement yet at many of them still got called "apologists"

your thread was also tagged with this subject line "For those who insist that Sony can do no wrong " and you quoted someone basically saying that

a) he is an apologist
b) he thinks that SOE can do no wrong

This in fact is not true and the same can be said of everyone that was called an "apologist" in this thread

Yet it still happened.

And you wonder why no one can be bothered?

There is no point in "debating" here this forum has lived is life and its now just the same thing over and over again.

'tis time to move on when there is no ground left to cover and trust me you done wore a hole through the world and are now in china.. (at least that is where I was told you could dig to when I was a kid.. or was it Australia.. oh well nevermind you will get the point)

Originally posted by ummax

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

 
I don't think it's true that Sony and SOE have done no wrong. 

---

 

 

100% of posters in this thread have agreed with this statement yet at many of them still got called "apologists"

your thread was also tagged with this subject line "For those who insist that Sony can do no wrong " and you quoted someone basically saying that

a) he is an apologist
b) he thinks that SOE can do no wrong

This in fact is not true and the same can be said of everyone that was called an "apologist" in this thread

Yet it still happened.

And you wonder why no one can be bothered?

There is no point in "debating" here this forum has lived is life and its now just the same thing over and over again.

'tis time to move on when there is no ground left to cover and trust me you done wore a hole through the world and are now in china.. (at least that is where I was told you could dig to when I was a kid.. or was it Australia.. oh well nevermind you will get the point)

 

That is not exactly true is it?  The OP made the post and THEN the person he quoted made new comments about Sony. 

For someone who can't be bothered you spend alot of time here not debating anything.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by grandpagamer

You and your brethren arnt very good at the radical conspiracy theory thing, how long have your ilk been trying to get SOE banned from existence and Warhammer shut down now?  Perhaps you should try a new hobby? I know, how about acutally playing a game?

 

I am always glad to see grandpagamer ring in. Maybe it is the name but I have always seen him post in a simple thoughtful way. Much like the way I remember my own grandpa who has been gone about 40 years now. I may not always agree with grandpagamer but I alway appreciate the way he presents his thoughts.

Good to see you as well Ecco.  Ive been amazed lately at the Petition to close Warhammer thread and sure enough it finally died out and now they are after SOE again lol and not only SOE but you as well it seems. Well take heart my friend if your upsetting the trolls this badly you must be doing something right. Hang in there.

Good to see grandpagamer come into the thread and post a bunch of insults and conjecture?  Wow I am pleased also!  Great discussion tactics that the two of you pat yourselves on the back for.  Congratulations to both of you for being objective and discussing the people who post and not the issues that are posted.  Well done sirs!

Grandpa, read the orange highlighted accusation where you paint the haters as being conspiracy theorists.  Now read the pink highlight where you spew the exact same conspiracy nonsense that you are complaining about.  Look out everyone!  The soe haters are focusing on warhammer!   Anyone without a shining opinion must be a soe hater!  They will be coming for your game next!  run run run!   

There used to be discussion filled with examples, facts and occurances in the mmo world with opinions on both sides.  Now what I see from the supporters is nothing more than baseless rationalization and personal insults while they dance around highfiving each other and do the exact poor behavior that they accuse everyone else of.  It is mind boggling to watch.

When did picking apart the person posting an relevent issue replace discussion of opinions and examples of the actual topic?

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by grandpagamer

You and your brethren arnt very good at the radical conspiracy theory thing, how long have your ilk been trying to get SOE banned from existence and Warhammer shut down now?  Perhaps you should try a new hobby? I know, how about acutally playing a game?

 

I am always glad to see grandpagamer ring in. Maybe it is the name but I have always seen him post in a simple thoughtful way. Much like the way I remember my own grandpa who has been gone about 40 years now. I may not always agree with grandpagamer but I alway appreciate the way he presents his thoughts.

Good to see you as well Ecco.  Ive been amazed lately at the Petition to close Warhammer thread and sure enough it finally died out and now they are after SOE again lol and not only SOE but you as well it seems. Well take heart my friend if your upsetting the trolls this badly you must be doing something right. Hang in there.

 

Good to see grandpagamer come into the thread and post a bunch of insults and conjecture?  Wow I am pleased also!  Great discussion tactics that the two of you pat yourselves on the back for.  Congratulations to both of you for being objective and discussing the people who post and not the issues that are posted.  Well done sirs!

 

Grandpa, read the orange highlighted accusation where you paint the haters as being conspiracy theorists.  Now read the pink highlight where you spew the exact same conspiracy nonsense that you are complaining about.  Look out everyone!  The soe haters are focusing on warhammer!   Anyone without a shining opinion must be a soe hater!  They will be coming for your game next!  run run run!   

 

There used to be discussion filled with examples, facts and occurances in the mmo world with opinions on both sides.  Now what I see from the supporters is nothing more than baseless rationalization and personal insults while they dance around highfiving each other and do the exact poor behavior that they accuse everyone else of.  It is mind boggling to watch.

 

When did picking apart the person posting an relevent issue replace discussion of opinions and examples of the actual topic?

Also, using "conspiracy theorist" in a dismissive way in the context of business conspiracy is ridiculous. The term, when used in such a way, generally is shorthand for "grand conspiracy theorist" people who believe that a small cabal runs the world from the shadows. Such a thing has not been proven to the satisfaction of most people, and thus such people have been dismissed as "conspiracy theorists."

To use the term "conspiracy theorist" to those who suggest a conspiracy within a business is simply ridiculous. Danbury Federal Prison is full of people involved in business conspiracies.

In that sense it is simply an attack with no meaning. Now, one can agree or disagree with whether or not a certain business was actually involved in a conspiracy, but to call such people "conspiracy theorists" is a further degradation of the language in an orwellian manner.

It is an attack, not a reason.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

For those that have jumped to Sony's defense in this thread, honestly, is it that hard to admit that they have had some ethical problems and that these have been noticed by more than just SWG vets?  Really, you can't just acknowledge that?  Wow lol.

No, they know better, they just enjoy arguing with you since it really seems to grind your gears. 

They'll continue as long as you chose to keep it going, and if you're having fun, great, works out well for everyone.

All companies make mistakes, SOE is no exception. I'm sure you could find more than one employee/ex-employee that wishes they had done things differently looking back today.

But hindsight is 20/20, and there's not much that can be done to change it now. (except to not buy their stuff anymore)

Originally posted by Kyleran

except to not buy their stuff anymore

 

First and best weapon a consumer has at their disposal.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

For those that have jumped to Sony's defense in this thread, honestly, is it that hard to admit that they have had some ethical problems and that these have been noticed by more than just SWG vets?  Really, you can't just acknowledge that?  Wow lol.

 

No, they know better, they just enjoy arguing with you since it really seems to grind your gears. 

They'll continue as long as you chose to keep it going, and if you're having fun, great, works out well for everyone.

All companies make mistakes, SOE is no exception. I'm sure you could find more than one employee/ex-employee that wishes they had done things differently looking back today.

But hindsight is 20/20, and there's not much that can be done to change it now. (except to not buy their stuff anymore)

 

 

Heh, I sense great wisdom in your post.  It does "grind my gears" as you say when people make ridiculous statements that try to cast fellow gamers in a negative light.  The notion that only SWG vets have had issues with Sony was a prime example.  My gears were unground when I posted clear evidence to the contrary (regardless of any responses).  Made me feel good inside lol.

As for keeping it going, I suppose at this point I'm just incredulous at the nature of the responses.  Instead of simply acknowledging what you just did quite well (all companies make mistakes, including Sony), some folks have gone off on some very wild tangents.  

Someone once said that the first step to correcting a problem is to admit that there is one.  Let's hope that the decision makers at Sony and SOE can do better than the denial, insults and defletions that have filled much of this thread.

The last comments I have on this. I did not come here to argue or call names as some have suggested. I came and only rang in when I WAS QUOTED  by arch  from another thread. A thread where this was already talked about in detail but Arch wanted to go at it again not me. He could have started this topic without quoting me and had a good discussion and I never would have even responded. It was also suggested I follow arch and others around to argue, bologna. My posting history will prove this to be false. The fact is that there are individuals that continually post this stuff on almost every thread I post in lately if it has anything to do with a SOE game. They say not to take it personally but others have also noticed this happening to me. The anti-SOE people seem to have tried to make me the posterboy for the "Sony can do no wrong" theroy. Again my post history will prove this is not true. I have posted a number of times about the things I feel SOE has screwed up.

If any of the anti-SOE (notice I am dropping"hater" since Daff felt I was insulting him with that, I simply am not sure what to call or how to describe these individuals, I never intended to insult them with "hater" just trying to find the appropriate description. Using an icon that mmorpg offers is not insulting as Daff claims. Using this icon provided by mmorpg is not name calling.) people would start their own thread about their feelings about SOE, even though I disagree I would not even post. All my comments about SOE sited here come from responses I made on other threads and made after some anti-SOE person rang in off topic to attack SOE or my being a customer. Like I said I felt I should respond here since I was quoted as the reason for this post. Yes, I have been baited and trolled many times. Others who have posted here have also noticed it. This is not a delusional comment on my part.

I am not the one following around anti-SOE people or posting on their threads as I have been portrayed here. Believe it or not that is the fact. Despite the "You take it to personnely or it is not about you"  comments I have recieved on a number of threads I try to stick the topic of the thread. However when I am quoted continually and often out of context how am I suppose to take it? Some on this thread hate my comments, so don't quote me and you will not hear from me. It is that simple. I only ring in with my opinion on SOE when I am quoted or my threads have been hyjacked. I have never start a single topic on how ethical SOE is or "how they can do no wrong", not once. I like their games and am a satisfied customer, so what, Daff and Arch why do you care? Your the ones quoting me and bring this up over and over again not me because it is not that important to me. How you spend your time and money is your business not mine.

I have come to mmorpg.com for years and have only tried to talk about and help people with games. I have been attack and vilified over this issue for no reason. While I do not loose sleep over it, I am suprised that someone who has been mostly helpful and positive over the years has become a villian for my simple support of SOE. I like their games, so what. The fact is Arch and Daff you are both smart guys and you would probably enjoy talk with me about games if you could drop this idea I am some SOE fanboi or some hypocrite. I am actually a nice guy. I realize someone will now dissect this post and turn it into something that it is not intended. This is a heart felt response to this issue and yes it does bother me that some seemed to have made this a crusade against anything I post more then against SOE lately.

I come to mmorpg.com to help people not insult them. I am not this insulting person Daff has claimed. Again years of posting here will support this. Some may have been insulted by my comments about SOE but they were never designed to insult anyone. I am not an apologist or a defended of SOE  I am simply a satisfied customer. If I do not think SOE is unethical so what. Why does that bother so many that they need to keep bringing it up over and over again. Guys remember isn't SOE you have the problem with? If so, then stop quoting me and making it seem I am the one you have a problem with. OK I am done enjoy your SOE discussion and leave me out of it. You made your points about me and proved I am a "hypocrite" as called. After all isn't that what you wanted? You wanted to silence eccoton on this issue. You win, congatulations. I can be found talking about the games I like if anyone cares.

PS- there is no reason to dissect this post or try to find a hidden agenda behind it. I am just trying to explain how I feel and how it has effected my posts. No hidden agenda or insults intended towards anyone. I really do wish Daff in particular would understand this because I do think he is smart and would love to hear if he is a passionte about games as he is about proving I am some jerk. (He never has called me a jerk but that is what I get from his posts.) Same goes to arch while arch and I have never danced around this issue like Daff and I, I also think he is smart and would love to engage people like that in game discussions.

Although I have played SWG since the NGE, I have looked at other Sony products with a jaundiced eye. I cannot remember the last time I bought a music CD. If I saw the Sony label on it, I know it would make me pause. Sony monitors? They used to be the best. I buy Samsung now though because they seem to be better. Sony MP3 player? Apple ate Sony in this market. I think Sony was still making CD Walkmans when the first iPod came out.

Sony WAS a world class company. Sony has been soiled by sitting on its hands and resting on what they accomplished before. Why Sony allows SOE to continue is just a symptom of an overall ailing company. If a division of Apple constantly underperformed like SOE does, Jobs would take it behind the woodshed and put it out of its misery. Sony is so desperate for any of its products in any business line to succeed that they are desperately afraid to trim anything. The ethical troubles of the company only amplify the image of a bloated company that cannot focus.

One of the very best things Sony could do is clear out EVERY Western manager from EVERY division. Sony Pictures and Music should be sold. Sony should trim everything down to the core business of kick butt consumer electronics. The Playstation 3 is an amazing piece of hardware. It is expensive, but wow, when the machine is experienced, it seems worth it. The PS3 is lost in the noise because Sony has no FOCUS.

First off you guys need to get a life.

Second, Sony is a big business, big business care about one thing and one thing only and that is money.  They do not care about there customers, they care about there customers wallets and how much they can get them to send to them.

Same with every big business on the face of these planet.   Money is the only thing that matters to them. 

So Sony made some "unethical" choices.  Get a clue, every company makes choices like that.  It is the nature of business.  If you are not trying to work in the grey area of the law, then you are not going to be a big business.

Very few business work fully within the law, they all try to work in the grey area.  How are you shocked by this?  This is how the buisness world works, has worked and will work.

Do you believe bizzard is perfect?  Shit, WoW was going to have hero classes from day one, how many hero classes are in the game now?  1?.   Come on guys, grow up and get a clue.  Step out into the real world.

In the real world, every big business has shady deals, it is the nature of the beast.  Deal with it.  If you hate Sony so much, boycott their products, that is all you can do as a customer but do not thing for a minute that Sony will all of a sudden stop with their shady deals.

Name one big business that does not work in the grey area.  Seriously name me one big company that has never done anything shady. 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

First off you guys need to get a life.

Second, Sony is a big business, big business care about one thing and one thing only and that is money.  They do not care about there customers, they care about there customers wallets and how much they can get them to send to them.

Same with every big business on the face of these planet.   Money is the only thing that matters to them. 

So Sony made some "unethical" choices.  Get a clue, every company makes choices like that.  It is the nature of business.  If you are not trying to work in the grey area of the law, then you are not going to be a big business.

Very few business work fully within the law, they all try to work in the grey area.  How are you shocked by this?  This is how the buisness world works, has worked and will work.

Do you believe bizzard is perfect?  Shit, WoW was going to have hero classes from day one, how many hero classes are in the game now?  1?.   Come on guys, grow up and get a clue.  Step out into the real world.

In the real world, every big business has shady deals, it is the nature of the beast.  Deal with it.  If you hate Sony so much, boycott their products, that is all you can do as a customer but do not thing for a minute that Sony will all of a sudden stop with their shady deals.

Name one big business that does not work in the grey area.  Seriously name me one big company that has never done anything shady. 

And those companies that alienate their customers with unethical choices deserve to lose money and market share...Like Sony has.  At some point bad business decisions catch up with you...Ask Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac as well as most of the financial industry and the auto industry. 

Good companies can receive monies from their customers while making said customers happy with the product.  There are of course exceptions to that given controlled monopolies in certain industries.

Like WoW or not...they apparently are doing something right given the amount of income they receive and the amount of subscribers they have.  Blizzard is a prime example of not alienating your customer and being rewarded with $$$ while providing a product as advertised.

First off, I don't feel insulted when you call me a hater and I am fully aware that I fall into that camp of generalization.  I am aware of where my opinions falls and I don't let it get in the way of being objective (yes it is true I don't think everything about soe is rotten and I do respect a number of things the devs have done).  Really I don't feel insulted in the least.

Despite you reading my emotional state into things, what I was pointing out is that you are slinging insults around just like those you complain about people insulting you.   It doesn't matter what your intentions were when you came here, because in the end you are doing exactly what you are complaining about.  Can that be any more clear?   No motivations justify it, no downplaying of terms or any other deflection, nothing you say makes it any better than anyone else who is doing it.  You are tossing around insults and cheering on those who are insulting people that oppose your view points.  You are just as guilty as those you finger.

If you want to complain about people branding you and insulting you then perhaps you should not act in the same manner.  I think it has been clearly pointed out in this thread and others enough for even you to see that you do it.  I hope this doesn't sound to snarky, but please step down off the cross you put yourself on, because you are right in the thick of things with those you complain about.

As for being "followed around", I'm fairly certain I was posting in the last several threads before you entered (save this one which I intentionally ignored for a while even before your quote was edited into the original post).  You just happened to walk into discussions I was already taking part in and I happened to see your comments and felt they deserved a reply.  Go check if you like, but please stop painting yourself as persecuted, because I am not following you around and I doubt anyone else is.  It doesn't matter who gets to a topic first, we all read the same types of threads here and enjoy discussing them.  Your presence in a topic does not make it off limits to others or make you singled out if you happen to say something that someone else replies to.  Not to mention the extreme double standard you pull with "I wasn't responding to you" comments.  It isn't like everything you reply to is directed at you, but you feel persecuted when someone does it to you.  *shrug*

I think you are smart and I do enjoy most of our discussions.  I bet we would even have a good time playing mmos together and maybe we have, who knows.  Really I do and also I've seen (and used) some of your tips and suggestions in games.  You do post a lot of helpful things for a game you are passionate about.  Lately though, you have done some things that I find really out of character from you. The double standards, the hypocrisy, ignoring facts by calling them opinions.  Those are things I expect from some of the more ardent supporters who are just as overboard as the critics are.  Not that I am your keeper, but that doesn't mean I can't comment on them.

I understand you support soe and their games.  No one is trying to take that away from you, but when you blur the line between facts and opinion as you have of late it should be pointed out.  You seem to have a bit of trouble with differentiating between aspects of a discussion and that makes it extremely difficult to communicate with you.  For example the way you interchangibly use your feelings about EQ2 as a game and the conduct in which soe opperates their business.  They are not the same thing.

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by TdogSkal

First off you guys need to get a life.

Second, Sony is a big business, big business care about one thing and one thing only and that is money.  They do not care about there customers, they care about there customers wallets and how much they can get them to send to them.

Same with every big business on the face of these planet.   Money is the only thing that matters to them. 

So Sony made some "unethical" choices.  Get a clue, every company makes choices like that.  It is the nature of business.  If you are not trying to work in the grey area of the law, then you are not going to be a big business.

Very few business work fully within the law, they all try to work in the grey area.  How are you shocked by this?  This is how the buisness world works, has worked and will work.

Do you believe bizzard is perfect?  Shit, WoW was going to have hero classes from day one, how many hero classes are in the game now?  1?.   Come on guys, grow up and get a clue.  Step out into the real world.

In the real world, every big business has shady deals, it is the nature of the beast.  Deal with it.  If you hate Sony so much, boycott their products, that is all you can do as a customer but do not thing for a minute that Sony will all of a sudden stop with their shady deals.

Name one big business that does not work in the grey area.  Seriously name me one big company that has never done anything shady. 

 

And those companies that alienate their customers with unethical choices deserve to lose money and market share...Like Sony has.  At some point bad business decisions catch up with you...Ask Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac as well as most of the financial industry and the auto industry. 

Good companies can receive monies from their customers while making said customers happy with the product.  There are of course exceptions to that given controlled monopolies in certain industries.

Like WoW or not...they apparently are doing something right given the amount of income they receive and the amount of subscribers they have.  Blizzard is a prime example of not alienating your customer and being rewarded with $$$ while providing a product as advertised.

If you read my post Blizzard did not release the product as advertised but that is not my point.

Look at Microsoft, they make billions every year yet they do not care about their customers in the least.  Check the Xbox360 red rings of death and Vista.

Sony still makes billions of dollars every year, they are in no danger of going out of business anytime soon.  

The Auto industry is not a good example because its the unions that ruined them, they got greedy and demanded to much from the auto companies.

Look at Comcast - bad customer service yet they make billions every year. 

Every big company deals in the grey area, that is how the world works, sorry to bust your bubble but that is life.

SOE is going strong, maybe not as strong as they once were but still going strong, they are still pumping out games so they still have enough funds backing them. 

I am not pro sony or againts sony, I am just saying that all big companies have these "unethical" dealings, its just apart of our business world.  Does not matter if that is right or wrong, its just how it is.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by TdogSkal

First off you guys need to get a life.

Second, Sony is a big business, big business care about one thing and one thing only and that is money.  They do not care about there customers, they care about there customers wallets and how much they can get them to send to them.

Same with every big business on the face of these planet.   Money is the only thing that matters to them. 

So Sony made some "unethical" choices.  Get a clue, every company makes choices like that.  It is the nature of business.  If you are not trying to work in the grey area of the law, then you are not going to be a big business.

Very few business work fully within the law, they all try to work in the grey area.  How are you shocked by this?  This is how the buisness world works, has worked and will work.

Do you believe bizzard is perfect?  Shit, WoW was going to have hero classes from day one, how many hero classes are in the game now?  1?.   Come on guys, grow up and get a clue.  Step out into the real world.

In the real world, every big business has shady deals, it is the nature of the beast.  Deal with it.  If you hate Sony so much, boycott their products, that is all you can do as a customer but do not thing for a minute that Sony will all of a sudden stop with their shady deals.

Name one big business that does not work in the grey area.  Seriously name me one big company that has never done anything shady. 

 

And those companies that alienate their customers with unethical choices deserve to lose money and market share...Like Sony has.  At some point bad business decisions catch up with you...Ask Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac as well as most of the financial industry and the auto industry. 

Good companies can receive monies from their customers while making said customers happy with the product.  There are of course exceptions to that given controlled monopolies in certain industries.

Like WoW or not...they apparently are doing something right given the amount of income they receive and the amount of subscribers they have.  Blizzard is a prime example of not alienating your customer and being rewarded with $$$ while providing a product as advertised.

If you read my post Blizzard did not release the product as advertised but that is not my point.

Look at Microsoft, they make billions every year yet they do not care about their customers in the least.  Check the Xbox360 red rings of death and Vista.

Sony still makes billions of dollars every year, they are in no danger of going out of business anytime soon.  

The Auto industry is not a good example because its the unions that ruined them, they got greedy and demanded to much from the auto companies.

Look at Comcast - bad customer service yet they make billions every year. 

Every big company deals in the grey area, that is how the world works, sorry to bust your bubble but that is life.

SOE is going strong, maybe not as strong as they once were but still going strong, they are still pumping out games so they still have enough funds backing them. 

I am not pro sony or againts sony, I am just saying that all big companies have these "unethical" dealings, its just apart of our business world.  Does not matter if that is right or wrong, its just how it is.

I understand how it is more than you think...But when these companies do the unethical then it should be expected that there may be a backlash from their customers and this forum is a prime example of that.  Comcast has examples of it...Microsoft and so on.  That is how it is as well.

As a consumer I DO NOT have to accept it.  I have options...I can speak with my wallet as well as outlets such as this to voice my opinion.  Simple word of mouth...or post can and does create change within companies.

If I recall the division that SOE is within at Sony is not doing so well. 

I suppose if this was a forum for discussing cable companies, auto makers and operting system software makers then your points might be right on target.  This is a forum about mmos though.

Even still, pointing to what other companies have done does not in the least rationalize what soe does. This whole mentality of "every company does it, so lets just accept it" doesn't fly either.  Apathy is not a solution.  Generalizing every company as being something ambiguously bad by default doesn't mean all companies actions are on the same level or even remotely comparable.  Consumers should not just accept that companies lie cheat and or steal as part of normal business practice and just keep on as if nothing out of the oridinary is going on.  Sure everyone makes mistakes, but it is fairly clear that some companies make it almost a corporate policy.

While there are no perfect companies, people or anything in the world, some companies go out of their way to not care.  Others try to do the right thing to their customers and at the same time make money.  Strange concept I know, but it pays off in spades for some companies and others have suffered massive losses as a result of their actions (case in point blizzard and soe respectively).   That is why soe has lost its once king of the hill status in the mmo world and their best efforts to date are about the same as a small independant company.  Their actions speak pretty loud about how little concern they have for the customer.  That type of behavior is fairly hard to find in other mmo companies.

You compare blizzard to this type of action, because they did not put hero classes into the release of the game?  Were they promised in the release details or is it just one of those blurbs that developers talked about on forums wanting to put into the game that didn't make the final release?  That happens, but in no way is that some deception or outright lie.  If the original boxes promised hero classes I will appologize, but I don't think they did.

Originally posted by Daffid011

I suppose if this was a forum for discussing cable companies, auto makers and operting system software makers then your points might be right on target.  This is a forum about mmos though.

Even still, pointing to what other companies have done does not in the least rationalize what soe does. This whole mentality of "every company does it, so lets just accept it" doesn't fly either.  Apathy is not a solution.  Generalizing every company as being something ambiguously bad by default doesn't mean all companies actions are on the same level or even remotely comparable.  Consumers should not just accept that companies lie cheat and or steal as part of normal business practice and just keep on as if nothing out of the oridinary is going on.  Sure everyone makes mistakes, but it is fairly clear that some companies make it almost a corporate policy.

 

While there are no perfect companies, people or anything in the world, some companies go out of their way to not care.  Others try to do the right thing to their customers and at the same time make money.  Strange concept I know, but it pays off in spades for some companies and others have suffered massive losses as a result of their actions (case in point blizzard and soe respectively).   That is why soe has lost its once king of the hill status in the mmo world and their best efforts to date are about the same as a small independant company.  Their actions speak pretty loud about how little concern they have for the customer.  That type of behavior is fairly hard to find in other mmo companies.

You compare blizzard to this type of action, because they did not put hero classes into the release of the game?  Were they promised in the release details or is it just one of those blurbs that developers talked about on forums wanting to put into the game that didn't make the final release?  That happens, but in no way is that some deception or outright lie.  If the original boxes promised hero classes I will appologize, but I don't think they did.

 

 

Well stated.

Originally posted by Daffid011

I suppose if this was a forum for discussing cable companies, auto makers and operting system software makers then your points might be right on target.  This is a forum about mmos though.

Even still, pointing to what other companies have done does not in the least rationalize what soe does. This whole mentality of "every company does it, so lets just accept it" doesn't fly either.  Apathy is not a solution.  Generalizing every company as being something ambiguously bad by default doesn't mean all companies actions are on the same level or even remotely comparable.  Consumers should not just accept that companies lie cheat and or steal as part of normal business practice and just keep on as if nothing out of the oridinary is going on.  Sure everyone makes mistakes, but it is fairly clear that some companies make it almost a corporate policy.

 

While there are no perfect companies, people or anything in the world, some companies go out of their way to not care.  Others try to do the right thing to their customers and at the same time make money.  Strange concept I know, but it pays off in spades for some companies and others have suffered massive losses as a result of their actions (case in point blizzard and soe respectively).   That is why soe has lost its once king of the hill status in the mmo world and their best efforts to date are about the same as a small independant company.  Their actions speak pretty loud about how little concern they have for the customer.  That type of behavior is fairly hard to find in other mmo companies.

You compare blizzard to this type of action, because they did not put hero classes into the release of the game?  Were they promised in the release details or is it just one of those blurbs that developers talked about on forums wanting to put into the game that didn't make the final release?  That happens, but in no way is that some deception or outright lie.  If the original boxes promised hero classes I will appologize, but I don't think they did.

 

 

Look I am not saying its right or that we as customers should just accept it, what I am saying is that Sony is not an exception, it is the norm.  

Look at how many MMO games release broken or missing promised features.  Very few release working correct and with a full feature list. Yet we still see companies release these broken games and we see millions of post saying how bad these games are and yet nothing changes?   Why is this?    With your logic it should change once it happens enough but that is not the case.   Companies (yes generalizing again) only care about the money, not the customer.

The companies that try to do right by there customers are few and far between, they are not the norm, they are the exception.  Its sad and I agree its not right but that is the business world.  Money above all else.   Sure we have companies that cater to their customers but catering to their customers is not exactly caring about their customers.   It just smart business.

I compare blizzard to this because it shows that even the "Good" companies make the "unethical" choices.    Even single player games and consoles suffer from this.  Look at the Xbox 360 and its failure rate, it is very high and yet it is still making money.  Companies know that customers are not smart, again I am generalizing.  Most people want to have the "IN' games and systems and companies know this.   They want to make a product that will be the next fad.  AKA WoW.  They do not care what the customer wants, they care about making the money and they will follow the true and tried path.    

Sure we have indie companies trying to build outside the "box" but again they are not the norm, they are execption.   Look at EvE, they listen to their customer base, they design the game around the customers base, they do a good job of talking and listening to their customers but they are not the norm.    

It was part of the feature list in beta but never made it to the box (which again is not my point, just showing that Blizzard is not perfect).

Originally posted by eccoton

The last comments I have on this. I did not come here to argue or call names as some have suggested. I came and only rang in when I WAS QUOTED  by arch  from another thread. A thread where this was already talked about in detail but Arch wanted to go at it again not me. He could have started this topic without quoting me and had a good discussion and I never would have even responded. It was also suggested I follow arch and others around to argue, bologna. My posting history will prove this to be false. The fact is that there are individuals that continually post this stuff on almost every thread I post in lately if it has anything to do with a SOE game. They say not to take it personally but others have also noticed this happening to me. The anti-SOE people seem to have tried to make me the posterboy for the "Sony can do no wrong" theroy. Again my post history will prove this is not true. I have posted a number of times about the things I feel SOE has screwed up.

If any of the anti-SOE (notice I am dropping"hater" since Daff felt I was insulting him with that, I simply am not sure what to call or how to describe these individuals, I never intended to insult them with "hater" just trying to find the appropriate description. Using an icon that mmorpg offers is not insulting as Daff claims. Using this icon provided by mmorpg is not name calling.) people would start their own thread about their feelings about SOE, even though I disagree I would not even post. All my comments about SOE sited here come from responses I made on other threads and made after some anti-SOE person rang in off topic to attack SOE or my being a customer. Like I said I felt I should respond here since I was quoted as the reason for this post. Yes, I have been baited and trolled many times. Others who have posted here have also noticed it. This is not a delusional comment on my part.

I am not the one following around anti-SOE people or posting on their threads as I have been portrayed here. Believe it or not that is the fact. Despite the "You take it to personnely or it is not about you"  comments I have recieved on a number of threads I try to stick the topic of the thread. However when I am quoted continually and often out of context how am I suppose to take it? Some on this thread hate my comments, so don't quote me and you will not hear from me. It is that simple. I only ring in with my opinion on SOE when I am quoted or my threads have been hyjacked. I have never start a single topic on how ethical SOE is or "how they can do no wrong", not once. I like their games and am a satisfied customer, so what, Daff and Arch why do you care? Your the ones quoting me and bring this up over and over again not me because it is not that important to me. How you spend your time and money is your business not mine.

I have come to mmorpg.com for years and have only tried to talk about and help people with games. I have been attack and vilified over this issue for no reason. While I do not loose sleep over it, I am suprised that someone who has been mostly helpful and positive over the years has become a villian for my simple support of SOE. I like their games, so what. The fact is Arch and Daff you are both smart guys and you would probably enjoy talk with me about games if you could drop this idea I am some SOE fanboi or some hypocrite. I am actually a nice guy. I realize someone will now dissect this post and turn it into something that it is not intended. This is a heart felt response to this issue and yes it does bother me that some seemed to have made this a crusade against anything I post more then against SOE lately.

I come to mmorpg.com to help people not insult them. I am not this insulting person Daff has claimed. Again years of posting here will support this. Some may have been insulted by my comments about SOE but they were never designed to insult anyone. I am not an apologist or a defended of SOE  I am simply a satisfied customer. If I do not think SOE is unethical so what. Why does that bother so many that they need to keep bringing it up over and over again. Guys remember isn't SOE you have the problem with? If so, then stop quoting me and making it seem I am the one you have a problem with. OK I am done enjoy your SOE discussion and leave me out of it. You made your points about me and proved I am a "hypocrite" as called. After all isn't that what you wanted? You wanted to silence eccoton on this issue. You win, congatulations. I can be found talking about the games I like if anyone cares.

PS- there is no reason to dissect this post or try to find a hidden agenda behind it. I am just trying to explain how I feel and how it has effected my posts. No hidden agenda or insults intended towards anyone. I really do wish Daff in particular would understand this because I do think he is smart and would love to hear if he is a passionte about games as he is about proving I am some jerk. (He never has called me a jerk but that is what I get from his posts.) Same goes to arch while arch and I have never danced around this issue like Daff and I, I also think he is smart and would love to engage people like that in game discussions.

Actually I did start this topic without quoting you.  Your comments simply echoed thoughts that have been expressed by SOE defenders repeatedly. 

In fact, I only quoted you (as an edit) when I was wrongly accused of making up the issue to begin with, by someone you later thanked for support.  Even then, I didn't name you, specifically because I didn't want to center you out.  I just made reference to the statements so people wouldn't think I made them up.

After I used your comment as the most recent example of an ongoing problem, I was then accused of calling you out lol.  And this accusation came, ironically, from the person that accused me of making it up to begin with.  Dizzying?  Yes lol, I'd say so.

I think you can see how this kind of manipulative interference in a discussion can only lead to unnecessary misunderstandings.

So, I have no bad feelings towards you, and don't believe I've shown you any disrespect.  Your comment was just the most recent one of many that have made claims that I wished to refute. 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Daffid011

I suppose if this was a forum for discussing cable companies, auto makers and operting system software makers then your points might be right on target.  This is a forum about mmos though.

Even still, pointing to what other companies have done does not in the least rationalize what soe does. This whole mentality of "every company does it, so lets just accept it" doesn't fly either.  Apathy is not a solution.  Generalizing every company as being something ambiguously bad by default doesn't mean all companies actions are on the same level or even remotely comparable.  Consumers should not just accept that companies lie cheat and or steal as part of normal business practice and just keep on as if nothing out of the oridinary is going on.  Sure everyone makes mistakes, but it is fairly clear that some companies make it almost a corporate policy.

 

While there are no perfect companies, people or anything in the world, some companies go out of their way to not care.  Others try to do the right thing to their customers and at the same time make money.  Strange concept I know, but it pays off in spades for some companies and others have suffered massive losses as a result of their actions (case in point blizzard and soe respectively).   That is why soe has lost its once king of the hill status in the mmo world and their best efforts to date are about the same as a small independant company.  Their actions speak pretty loud about how little concern they have for the customer.  That type of behavior is fairly hard to find in other mmo companies.

You compare blizzard to this type of action, because they did not put hero classes into the release of the game?  Were they promised in the release details or is it just one of those blurbs that developers talked about on forums wanting to put into the game that didn't make the final release?  That happens, but in no way is that some deception or outright lie.  If the original boxes promised hero classes I will appologize, but I don't think they did.

 

 

Look I am not saying its right or that we as customers should just accept it, what I am saying is that Sony is not an exception, it is the norm.  

Look at how many MMO games release broken or missing promised features.  Very few release working correct and with a full feature list. Yet we still see companies release these broken games and we see millions of post saying how bad these games are and yet nothing changes?   Why is this?    With your logic it should change once it happens enough but that is not the case.   Companies (yes generalizing again) only care about the money, not the customer.

The companies that try to do right by there customers are few and far between, they are not the norm, they are the exception.  Its sad and I agree its not right but that is the business world.  Money above all else.   Sure we have companies that cater to their customers but catering to their customers is not exactly caring about their customers.   It just smart business.

I compare blizzard to this because it shows that even the "Good" companies make the "unethical" choices.    Even single player games and consoles suffer from this.  Look at the Xbox 360 and its failure rate, it is very high and yet it is still making money.  Companies know that customers are not smart, again I am generalizing.  Most people want to have the "IN' games and systems and companies know this.   They want to make a product that will be the next fad.  AKA WoW.  They do not care what the customer wants, they care about making the money and they will follow the true and tried path.    

Sure we have indie companies trying to build outside the "box" but again they are not the norm, they are execption.   Look at EvE, they listen to their customer base, they design the game around the customers base, they do a good job of talking and listening to their customers but they are not the norm.    

It was part of the feature list in beta but never made it to the box (which again is not my point, just showing that Blizzard is not perfect).

We may have more in common than you think.  I started this thread to refute the notion that Sony has never done anything wrong.  We've read comments for years around here that they haven't done anything unethical, and that SWG veterans complain just to hear themselves whine.  I read one more comment like that recently and finally decided to respond. 

My response simply highlights that I think Sony has had some ethical problems, and the SWG vets aren't the only ones to take notice.

Other companies have ethical problems to be sure.  I agree with you.  It's a matter of degree I think.  I believe that WoW and EVE in particular have had fewer ethical controversies than this game.  I'm aware that they're not perfect though, certainly.  I think, however, that to the degree a company attempts to treat their customers well, they will earn their confidence and patronage.  Unfortunately, I think that SOE has made a number of decisions that have alienated their customers.

They can and have done things right as well, but I  think they still have a ways to go to rebuild their reputation and trust with consumers.  Recent developments with RMT in SWG and EQ haven't helped that imo.  I think they could make less controversial decisions and avoid a lot of consumer backlash.  For some reason, they seem to choose not to repeatedly.  Tbh, I'd love to see them turn this around.