You know what, I had posted here a repsonse to agtsmith's slippery politician like mud slinging, but forget it.
 

This is turning into a typical mmorpg.com thread full of white noise, tainted opinion, and spin. In short, it's now pointless and useless.

The change in this board is noticable recently, which is a real shame beacuse this was one on the few places on this site you could read good natured clear clean posts.

I guess growing awareness of the game has it's price.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I am calling GameGuard illicit and dangerous for the reasons explained throughout. 

So it is "illicit and dangerous" because of the way it installs itself? So the fact that people are aware, the information about it is reasonably found and people know about it, isn't enough?

I am not calling GameGuard malicious as I have no info to suggest it has the intent to do harm or to otherwise abuse user privacy. 

So there is no proof that is HAS done anything wrong? And there is nothing to suggest it has? So people should uninstall and NOT play TCOS because of what might happen in the future (even though there is no proof it will)?

My very point though is that even with out the intent giving a third party this kind of access and control is ridiculous, especially when the operate in a way that is clearly intended to usurp the users consent and even their knowledge.

We give this level of "access and control" to many programs and operations everyday. What should we do about them?

 

Illicit

–adjective

1.     not legally permitted or authorized; unlicensed; unlawful.

2.     disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons.

Dangerous

–adjective

1.     full of danger or risk; causing danger; perilous; risky; hazardous; unsafe.

2.     able or likely to cause physical injury: a dangerous criminal.

 

 

 

All I see is spin and white noise Agnt.

I ask again...

ARE you accusing GG of being a malicious piece of software? I mean actively malicious, not just sharing properties that you don't like, but ACTUALLY causing ACTUAL harm?

More specifically, are you accusing the version of GG that SB uses of being malicious or damaging?

Yes or No?

A one word answer plz? Lets stop dressing it up in multiple paragraphs of white noise and try to find a clear signal from you.
 

Honestly Vesavius, I think its all based around what might happen.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by zaltar

 

 

There are issues with GameGuard regarding problems with other programs. Many of the problems have been solved or are in the process of being resolved.[1] Gameguard pppoe disconnection problem in Cabal is resolved using a router. Because of its method of actuation (very similar to a rootkit), it is criticized for being extremely invasive, often without knowledge of the end user. The software installs a device driver which is difficult to uninstall; even uninstalling the game will still leave some files hidden on the system, but it stays inactive without the game. In recent versions (revision 1007 and up), GameGuard fails to halt when the game ends, so GameGuard continues to use computer resources and inject code into processes. This is often unknown to the end-user, as GameGuard masks its CPU usage by hooking Windows system querying APIs. Most anti-virus vendors currently exclude nProtect GameGuard from their detection databases due to it being commercial software, however this was initially not the case, leading to system crashes as both the Antivirus and GameGuard attempted to override each other.

Many hackers attempt to find ways to compromise GameGuard in new ways. For example, it has been said that GameGuard can still be compromised by using modified game client files, modified versions of Cheat Engine coupled with server emulation utilities. nProtect GameGuard constantly updates itself and provides new protection against the latest threats. Even though it boasts such effectiveness, in truth hackers can break or bypass GameGuard faster than it gets updated, therefore rendering the system quite useless. Especially from the number of sites out there utilizing 'bot' programs to flood the game to farm the ingame currency & rare items, which are then sold for real money. Such sites and 'bots' have been known to be up and running again, having bypassed GameGuard, within an hour of its latest update.

On some games such as MapleStory, the game itself does a hash check of the GameGuard revision currently running and will exit if it does not match the hash on the server side.[citation needed] This is a security measure from nProtect GameGuard to ensure that GameGuard has not been hacked and nProtect GameGuard should update to the latest version under normal circumstances.

GameGuard is currently not compatible with Windows 7 Build 7000 - it ends up in "Error Initializing (0)", so games using GameGuard also don't work with Windows 7[2].

Because of the way that GameGuard hooks into core system DLLs, it is impossible to run games protected by GameGuard under Windows API Emulators, such as Wine under Unix-based operating systems. The key issue being that GameGuard bypass the OS safeguards in order to:

* Hide the game application process.
* Monitor the entire memory range.
* Terminate specific applications without the user consent.
* Block specific calls to DirectX or the windows API.
 

 

 

I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...

 

Good post

 

That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing. 

 

You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....

 

And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems

It is not his words - he is quoting from the sources I provided at the beginning of the thread.  ROFL.  And FYI - the part highlighted in yellow does justify the label of rootkit.  Want to here more from another source (security focus article cited earlier):

"The driver is installed as a system service. Even when Gameguard and the
multiplayer game(s) are closed, the driver continues running. The driver is
accessible under a non-admin account and is activated every boot. It does
not uninstall when the application is removed and in fact will not even
uninstall if selected in Device Manager and told to uninstall. The driver
must be deleted manually, and the registry must be edited to remove the
remaining reference."

Did you skip over that info too, I posted it pages ago along with other information.

Originally posted by vesavius 

All I see is spin and white noise Agnt.

I ask again...

ARE you accusing GG of being a malicious piece of software? I mean actively malicious, not just sharing properties that you don't like, but ACTUALLY causing ACTUAL harm?

More specifically, are you accusing the version of GG that SB uses of being malicious or damaging?

Yes or No?

A one word answer plz? Lets stop dressing it up in multiple paragraphs of white noise and try to find a clear signal from you.
 

All you see is what you are willing to see, sorry, but you obviously are looking not for the truth or even for discovery but for a way not to believe.  As for your question, I answered your question quite clearly and without any obfuscation.  I am sorry if I did not word my sentence as you would like but as a free thinking and a person entitled to speak for myself I am under no obligation to reply as you see fit.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I am calling GameGuard illicit and dangerous for the reasons explained throughout. 

I am not calling GameGuard malicious as I have no info to suggest it has the intent to do harm or to otherwise abuse user privacy. 

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by zaltar

 

 

There are issues with GameGuard regarding problems with other programs. Many of the problems have been solved or are in the process of being resolved.[1] Gameguard pppoe disconnection problem in Cabal is resolved using a router. Because of its method of actuation (very similar to a rootkit), it is criticized for being extremely invasive, often without knowledge of the end user. The software installs a device driver which is difficult to uninstall; even uninstalling the game will still leave some files hidden on the system, but it stays inactive without the game. In recent versions (revision 1007 and up), GameGuard fails to halt when the game ends, so GameGuard continues to use computer resources and inject code into processes. This is often unknown to the end-user, as GameGuard masks its CPU usage by hooking Windows system querying APIs. Most anti-virus vendors currently exclude nProtect GameGuard from their detection databases due to it being commercial software, however this was initially not the case, leading to system crashes as both the Antivirus and GameGuard attempted to override each other.

Many hackers attempt to find ways to compromise GameGuard in new ways. For example, it has been said that GameGuard can still be compromised by using modified game client files, modified versions of Cheat Engine coupled with server emulation utilities. nProtect GameGuard constantly updates itself and provides new protection against the latest threats. Even though it boasts such effectiveness, in truth hackers can break or bypass GameGuard faster than it gets updated, therefore rendering the system quite useless. Especially from the number of sites out there utilizing 'bot' programs to flood the game to farm the ingame currency & rare items, which are then sold for real money. Such sites and 'bots' have been known to be up and running again, having bypassed GameGuard, within an hour of its latest update.

On some games such as MapleStory, the game itself does a hash check of the GameGuard revision currently running and will exit if it does not match the hash on the server side.[citation needed] This is a security measure from nProtect GameGuard to ensure that GameGuard has not been hacked and nProtect GameGuard should update to the latest version under normal circumstances.

GameGuard is currently not compatible with Windows 7 Build 7000 - it ends up in "Error Initializing (0)", so games using GameGuard also don't work with Windows 7[2].

Because of the way that GameGuard hooks into core system DLLs, it is impossible to run games protected by GameGuard under Windows API Emulators, such as Wine under Unix-based operating systems. The key issue being that GameGuard bypass the OS safeguards in order to:

* Hide the game application process.
* Monitor the entire memory range.
* Terminate specific applications without the user consent.
* Block specific calls to DirectX or the windows API.
 

 

 

I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...

 

Good post

 

That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing. 

 

You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....

 

And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems

 

It is not his words - he is quoting from the sources I provided at the beginning of the thread.  ROFL.  And FYI - the part highlighted in yellow does justify the label of rootkit.  Want to here more from another source (security focus article cited earlier):

 

"The driver is installed as a system service. Even when Gameguard and the
multiplayer game(s) are closed, the driver continues running. The driver is
accessible under a non-admin account and is activated every boot. It does
not uninstall when the application is removed and in fact will not even
uninstall if selected in Device Manager and told to uninstall. The driver
must be deleted manually, and the registry must be edited to remove the
remaining reference."

 

Did you skip over that info too, I posted it pages ago along with other information.

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by vesavius 

All I see is spin and white noise Agnt.

I ask again...

ARE you accusing GG of being a malicious piece of software? I mean actively malicious, not just sharing properties that you don't like, but ACTUALLY causing ACTUAL harm?

More specifically, are you accusing the version of GG that SB uses of being malicious or damaging?

Yes or No?

A one word answer plz? Lets stop dressing it up in multiple paragraphs of white noise and try to find a clear signal from you.
 

 

All you see is what you are willing to see, sorry, but you obviously are looking not for the truth or even for discovery but for a way not to believe.  As for your question, I answered your question quite clearly and without any obfuscation.  I am sorry if I did not word my sentance as you would like but as a free thinking and a person entitled to speak for myself I am under no obligation to reply as you see fit.

Wow, that is the most arrogant post I have ever read.

Your answer was not clear, it was more of the "it hasn't but I think it might type of double-speak. What Vesavius was looking for was a clear indication of what you think GG has done and not what you think it might do.

Your post is a classic example of the fact you rather hear yourself speak and not interested in debating something that is obviously up for debate. You rather WIN the argument than actually discuss the topic.

Sorry but this thread is now a complete waste of time and energy because you only want to be right and rather be right than debate or discuss the topic with anyone.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust 

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

 

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices?  It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each time your system boots it is loaded as any other driver.  We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock. 

My god, it is stunning how readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument.  It is sad.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

txt

 

 txt

 

You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....

 

And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems

you really are quite egocentric aren't you?.

every post you make has you bashing someone or a statement about GG you disagree with. you sound like DFO fan boys during their war with anti-DFO fanboys.

you totally forget what the whole thread is about.

no one is disagreeing with the need for programs LIKE GG. but with how they go about installing and running.

there is a limit to covert scanning and running of 3rd party programs, unless you like having ad-ware running on your HDD... cause honestly GG does a similer thing as any run of the mill ad/spy ware. only its useage is diffrent where one is ment to prevent abuse of a program client the other is ment to abuse the end user system/os.

the whole history of GG has been nothing but failure. every game its used on is hacked out the wazoo. rose online being a good example. (i personally forget the p2p games i have seen GG used on but im sure there was cases of abuse on them too)

the fact GG does not state how it runs in any ToS or such only compounds the distrust people have for it.

people know exactly how PB runs. as well as other anti-cheats (or as much as public need/should know on its useage)
ontop of that GG gets flag repeatedly by lowend and topof the line protection programs. both free and paid, as i recall norton was flagging it i think a year or so ago do to how it ran during a virus scan. (im not sure if that was ever solved mind you as i dont use norton)

firewalls flag it as viral. do to the very actions it makes on the OS. Granted you could argue the firewall should be informed by end user and GG on the GG system commands. but at the same time why would a harmless anti-cheat make its command actions similer to illegal programs??

there may not be any public cases of abuse of GG run-time processes.. but that doesnt mean its not possible or hasnt been tempted.

GG has so far been the only reported anti-cheat to have these types of issues. why is that??

VaC and PB both do the exact same job. yet they arent flagged. they have never been flagged? im sure hackshield is the same. so explain to everyone how it is. a so called harmless program doing the same job as many others.. is always flagged as spy/ad ware and viruses??

personally i find it odd and suspicious how it works/operates.

OH and there are games/programs that dont use any 3rd party anti-cheat because they are securely locked away all important files that people hex-code to create cheats.

just because WoW and steam based games dont. doesnt mean there is not a way to prevent cheats on a game without GG or other programs.

ofcourse if people werent loserific and felt the need to code scripts for increased speed or disabling cool times we wouldnt need anti-cheats in the firstplace.

Originally posted by templarga

 

Wow, that is the most arrogant post I have ever read.

Your answer was not clear, it was more of the "it hasn't but I think it might type of double-speak. What Vesavius was looking for was a clear indication of what you think GG has done and not what you think it might do.

Your post is a classic example of the fact you rather hear yourself speak and not interested in debating something that is obviously up for debate. You rather WIN the argument than actually discuss the topic.

Sorry but this thread is now a complete waste of time and energy because you only want to be right and rather be right than debate or discuss the topic with anyone.

Unless you barely have an elementary school reading level the three sentences I replied to him with are very clear, crystal clear - I even included (in the original post) definitions of the adjectives I used.  

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I am calling GameGuard illicit and dangerous for the reasons explained throughout. 

I am not calling GameGuard malicious as I have no info to suggest it has the intent to do harm or to otherwise abuse user privacy. 

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust 

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

 

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

 

Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices?  It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver.  We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock. 

 

My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument.  It is sad.

lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?

nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!

(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)

I know how to find blind processes....thanx

Originally posted by Ichmen

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

txt

 

 txt

 

You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....

 

And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems

you really are quite egocentric aren't you?.

every post you make has you bashing someone or a statement about GG you disagree with. you sound like DFO fan boys during their war with anti-DFO fanboys.

 

you totally forget what the whole thread is about.

 

no one is disagreeing with the need for programs LIKE GG. but with how they go about installing and running.

there is a limit to covert scanning and running of 3rd party programs, unless you like having ad-ware running on your HDD... cause honestly GG does a similer thing as any run of the mill ad/spy ware. only its useage is diffrent where one is ment to prevent abuse of a program client the other is ment to abuse the end user system/os.

the whole history of GG has been nothing but failure. every game its used on is hacked out the wazoo. rose online being a good example. (i personally forget the p2p games i have seen GG used on but im sure there was cases of abuse on them too)

the fact GG does not state how it runs in any ToS or such only compounds the distrust people have for it.

people know exactly how PB runs. as well as other anti-cheats (or as much as public need/should know on its useage)
ontop of that GG gets flag repeatedly by lowend and topof the line protection programs. both free and paid, as i recall norton was flagging it i think a year or so ago do to how it ran during a virus scan. (im not sure if that was ever solved mind you as i dont use norton)

firewalls flag it as viral. do to the very actions it makes on the OS. Granted you could argue the firewall should be informed by end user and GG on the GG system commands. but at the same time why would a harmless anti-cheat make its command actions similer to illegal programs??

there may not be any public cases of abuse of GG run-time processes.. but that doesnt mean its not possible or hasnt been tempted.

GG has so far been the only reported anti-cheat to have these types of issues. why is that??

VaC and PB both do the exact same job. yet they arent flagged. they have never been flagged? im sure hackshield is the same. so explain to everyone how it is. a so called harmless program doing the same job as many others.. is always flagged as spy/ad ware and viruses??

personally i find it odd and suspicious how it works/operates.

OH and there are games/programs that dont use any 3rd party anti-cheat because they are securely locked away all important files that people hex-code to create cheats.

just because WoW and steam based games dont. doesnt mean there is not a way to prevent cheats on a game without GG or other programs.

 

ofcourse if people werent loserific and felt the need to code scripts for increased speed or disabling cool times we wouldnt need anti-cheats in the firstplace.

Any gamer that plays anything multi player is used to some app checking your system....hell Steam does this.....but somehow in an MMO...this is wrong?

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by templarga

 

Wow, that is the most arrogant post I have ever read.

Your answer was not clear, it was more of the "it hasn't but I think it might type of double-speak. What Vesavius was looking for was a clear indication of what you think GG has done and not what you think it might do.

Your post is a classic example of the fact you rather hear yourself speak and not interested in debating something that is obviously up for debate. You rather WIN the argument than actually discuss the topic.

Sorry but this thread is now a complete waste of time and energy because you only want to be right and rather be right than debate or discuss the topic with anyone.

 

Unless you barely have an elementary school reading level the three sentences I replied to him with are very clear, crystal clear - I even included (in the original post) definitions of the adjectives I used.  

 

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I am calling GameGuard illicit and dangerous for the reasons explained throughout. 

I am not calling GameGuard malicious as I have no info to suggest it has the intent to do harm or to otherwise abuse user privacy. 

 

First off do not attack my reading level...I am highly educated and read just fine.

Second, it is NOT a clear answer. You are debating the meaning of words. You did not call it malicious, you called it illicit and dangerous. You are still implying the same thing regardless of the adjective you used.

He wanted to know if it HAS done anything bad, evil, illicit, malicious, wrong, fill in the blank with whatever word you wish. The point isn't the definition of the word, its the point if it HAS versus it MIGHT.

And since, to date, it hasn't and you have no proof that it has, this debate is null and void. We are debating about what might happen and without proof or examples from what HAS happened, debating what might is really pointless.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by templarga

 

Wow, that is the most arrogant post I have ever read.

Your answer was not clear, it was more of the "it hasn't but I think it might type of double-speak. What Vesavius was looking for was a clear indication of what you think GG has done and not what you think it might do.

Your post is a classic example of the fact you rather hear yourself speak and not interested in debating something that is obviously up for debate. You rather WIN the argument than actually discuss the topic.

Sorry but this thread is now a complete waste of time and energy because you only want to be right and rather be right than debate or discuss the topic with anyone.

 

Unless you barely have an elementary school reading level the three sentences I replied to him with are very clear, crystal clear - I even included (in the original post) definitions of the adjectives I used.  

 

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I am calling GameGuard illicit and dangerous for the reasons explained throughout. 

I am not calling GameGuard malicious as I have no info to suggest it has the intent to do harm or to otherwise abuse user privacy. 

 

First off do not attack my reading level...I am highly educated and read just fine.

Second, it is NOT a clear answer. You are debating the meaning of words. You did not call it malicious, you called it illicit and dangerous. You are still implying the same thing regardless of the adjective you used.

He wanted to know if it HAS done anything bad, evil, illicit, malicious, wrong, fill in the blank with whatever word you wish. The point isn't the definition of the word, its the point if it HAS versus it MIGHT.

+1

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust 

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

 

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

 

Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices?  It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver.  We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock. 

 

My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument.  It is sad.

 

lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?

 

nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!

 

(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)

 

I know how to find blind processes....thanx

use your window admin tools smarty pants.

i have this error every single day after installing GG twice for 2 games.

The npkcrypt service failed to start due to the following error:
The system cannot find the path specified.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

^ npkcrypt is the hidden crap for GG. you cant get rid of it. as i removed both the physical file and the reg file. but i guess i missed one some where....

BUT i forgot GG doesnt hide stuff eh.. its clear as day ... its all under c:\programfiles\gamename\GameGaurd ... eh...

GG tries to run every time i restart my pc. even when i havent touched a GG game in 1yr  and 4months.... totally didnt uninstall when i got rid of the game. as well.

Originally posted by Ichmen

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust 

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

 

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

 

Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices?  It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver.  We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock. 

 

My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument.  It is sad.

 

lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?

 

nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!

 

(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)

 

I know how to find blind processes....thanx

use your window admin tools smarty pants.

i have this error every single day after installing GG twice for 2 games.

 

The npkcrypt service failed to start due to the following error:
The system cannot find the path specified.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

 

^ npkcrypt is the hidden crap for GG. you cant get rid of it. as i removed both the physical file and the reg file. but i guess i missed one some where....

 

BUT i forgot GG doesnt hide stuff eh.. its clear as day ... its all under c:\programfiles\gamename\GameGaurd ... eh...

GG tries to run every time i restart my pc. even when i havent touched a GG game in 1yr  and 4months.... totally didnt uninstall when i got rid of the game. as well.

 

umm...I have....since beta...and since I tested this...and found nothing....who do you think has a more valid point?

I have never seen this....it might happen....but not maliciously....which is the point OF THIS THREAD!!!

I give up....you two or three who think that GG is bad....fine...don't play anything with an AC built in...they ALL do the same thing. Some better than others....

/meh

im well used to 3rd party anti-cheats running in the background. i check both my reg and taskmanager when i run programs.

just to make sure the stuff i want running IS running. i have had PB/GG/HS/VaC and other anti-cheats installed at one point or another for some game.

only GG causes me any alarm or problems. both when its running or when im disposing of it...

FPS or single based games all run some sort of app to make sure your not abusing the game illegally.

as do mmos. infact MMOS pretty much created the book FOR 3rd party apps to protect against illegal actions by end users on the client/server.

seeing as MMO = massively multiplayer online. its kind of generic term for ONLINE play. so naturally one would assume/expect some sort of client protection either by client producer or by 3rd party.

doesnt change the fact GG still runs when your not even playing that game.

heres a random WHAT IF (yes im full of em) what would happen if i injected a keylogger in to a GG update on a server. you then installed said update (with keylogger) and i then used GG to give me access to your online bank/creditcard as well as every game account you play??

what would you do then? shrug your shoulders and go "owell its ok its ment to run when im not at my PC"

no you would be quite pissed.

so the fact of the matter is why does GG feel the need to never terminate its process when it is pinged that the target app is terminated?

(and no i have no plans ever to create such a program to log a persons computer info, just an example)

Oops, a little testing and research and I found more...

Title: INCA nProtect Gameguard Unprivileged Arbitrary Read/Write Access Vulnerability

Severity: HIGH

Description:

INCA nProtect Gameguard is a Microsoft Windows kernel driver that is designed to maintain the integrity of computer game installations and protect them from external tampering.

It is reported that the INCA nProtect Gameguard kernel driver (npptnt2.sys) provides functionality that may impact the security model of a Windows NT/2000/XP computer. Reports indicate the affected kernel driver is accessible by any process even if the calling process is unprivileged. The driver provides functionality to modify the I/O permission mask of the process that invokes the affected driver to allow for unrestricted I/O operations in unprivileged user-mode. It is reported that the functions Ke386SetIoAccessMap() and Ke386IoSetAccessProcess() are used to provide this functionality.

An unprivileged attacker that has obtained local interactive access to a computer that is running the vulnerable kernel mode driver may exploit the reported functionality to make arbitrary read and write operations to a specified hardware device.

**Update: It is reported that an updated version of the nProtect Gameguard driver was released. Reports indicate that while the updated driver was modified so that arbitrary access to all I/O ports is not granted, the driver can still be used to access the I/O port ranges:
'0x40-0x47' and '0x60-0x67'
It is reported that the I/O port range '0x60-0x67' is the range that is used by the 8042 keyboard and the mouse controller, this may facilitate keystroke and mouse event reconnaissance for unprivileged applications.

And this...

GameGuard

is an application developed by nProtect, bundled with multiplayer games which hides the game application process, monitors the entire memory range, terminates applications defined by the game vendor and nProtect to be cheats, blocks certain calls to DirectX functions, Windows APIs and auto-updates itself.

The application installs itself as part of the operating system so that it can do its work. What makes it problematic is the fact that uninstalling the game that it came with does not uninstall it. Furthermore, even when the game is not running, GameGuard still sits in the background. Even clicking the 'uninstall' button in device manager does not get rid of it -- a user must manually delete both it, and the registry keys that refer to it.

GameGuard uses a variety of techniques to prevent cheaters from succeeding; hooking Windows APIs such as SendKeys (this is used in many automated botting programs), checking for cheating programs defined by the vendor and using rootkit technology to hide the processes of itself (GameMon.des) and the game that it is bundled with.

When a hacking threat is detected, GameGuard recently implemented the strategy of restarting the user's computer. This is made possible because part of GameGuard runs as a kernel driver (dump_wmimmc.sys), allowing it access to most functions on a system. If a problem occurs then GameGuard will normally exit with an error message and request that the user sends GameGuard's error log files (*.erl) which contain details of the error and a snapshot of the user's system to an e-mail address. Recently however, this has become compulsory because GameMon.des will automatically send these files.

This program leaves a computer running Windows 2000 or XP exposed to the vulnerability of unprivileged arbitrary read/write access.

- MapleWiki (wiki site for one of GameGuards games)

And for a read on the general subject of software that obscures its operation to the detriment of the user check this excellent article out.  No doubt the way GameGuard installs in a stealth manner and refuses to uninstall and the invasive manner of GameGuard put it over the top but even just considering the way it uses a person's computer without their knowledge or approval is what this article is talking about.  The article ends making the point that while it is often hard to detect malicious intent it is far easier to detect obfuscation and the only solution to the arms race of malware VS software is to get to a point that obfuscated software is presumed malicious.

"Obfuscation by itself is not good or bad but it has led to the situation where users can’t determine if the behavior of obfuscated software is good or bad. While it would be a controversial measure, perhaps it's time to treat any code that exhibits unknown behavior as bad.

...

In warfare, such a battle is known as a war of attrition. Both the reverse engineer and the software writer are attempting to wear the other down. As far as I can tell neither side is worn down and it is simply the user that loses. Sun Tzu, the famous military theorist, warned against getting into a war of attrition — even if you could win, it would be a pyrrhic victory as the cost would be very high.

...

The good news is — even if we can’t determine if software is going to cause harm — it is relatively easy to detect if it is trying to hide its behavior. We can scan binary code statically and detect self modifying code, root kit behavior, and anti-debugging code. By looking for these indications we have a good idea whether or not the software developer is trying to hide something from us, the user."

And this ...

Thanks for the heads up AgtSmith

Don't let the people who seem so bizarrely angry about you pointing out a potential risk get you down

Time for a trip into the registry /sigh

Originally posted by Ichmen

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Gestankfaust 

It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....

 

What more do you want...Neo?  The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!

 

Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices?  It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver.  We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock. 

 

My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument.  It is sad.

 

lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?

 

nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!

 

(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)

 

I know how to find blind processes....thanx

use your window admin tools smarty pants.

i have this error every single day after installing GG twice for 2 games.

 

The npkcrypt service failed to start due to the following error:
The system cannot find the path specified.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

 

^ npkcrypt is the hidden crap for GG. you cant get rid of it. as i removed both the physical file and the reg file. but i guess i missed one some where....

 

BUT i forgot GG doesnt hide stuff eh.. its clear as day ... its all under c:\programfiles\gamename\GameGaurd ... eh...

GG tries to run every time i restart my pc. even when i havent touched a GG game in 1yr  and 4months.... totally didnt uninstall when i got rid of the game. as well.

 

I have TCoS installed and didn't find any "npkcrypt" files/registry entries on my computer.  From what I read on the internet, people with older games had issues with this as well, but the service pointed to files that I simply don't have on my computer.  If you removed a registry entry before and it didn't solve your problem, you probably grabbed a backup out of your controlset entries and not the currentcontrolset.  You should be able to ditch the error you're getting by running the command 'sc delete npkcrypt' (removing the service if you don't want to muck around in your registry.)

I did find "npggsvc" which shows up under services as "nProtect GameGuard Service."   I guess TCoS uses a new version or something?    Is it plausible that they fixed the odd behavior you saw in the past?  Anyway, I did not find anything extra running in the background when TCoS is not running.  It doesn't look to me like they are really trying to hide anything sneaky with their monitoring.  If I am mistaken, I'd appreciate a little more information on exactly what sensitive information is being gathered and how people are coming to that conclusion.

On a side note, I absolutely hate PunkBuster and will not play a game that uses it unless it has changed since I last tried it.  I get where you're coming from in hating excess crap bloating up your system--that just doesn't seem to be the case with TCoS.   I want to make sure I have rock solid evidence before I go and write off a good game, especially the ulta-rare quality MMO.

Cry me a river, Build a bridge, and get the fuck over it....