Forcing users to install two different third party programs, Pando Media Booster and GameGuard, in order to install and play TCoS really is ridiculous.  If you want to operate a professional pay to play MMO then invest in hosting services for trial downloads or come up with some other way that doesn't involve installing non game related programs and services on users computers that maintain a persistent presence even after uninstalling the game.  As for GameGuard - it is a rootkit and wholly inappropriate no matter what its claimed objective is.  Sure, they will say it is to stop cheats but installing rootkits that run code not only unknown to the user but beyond their administration or even beyond their ability to see what the program is doing is outright evil and unscrupulous.  On top of that, both these third party programs remain behind and active even if the user uninstalls TCoS - sounds like malware to me regardless of the intent.  It is high time software companies quit abusing their users and forcing the burden of protecting the companies IP and code or processes on to the consumer.  Hire better coders or otherwise innovate ways to handle the burden on without altering users computers without their knowledge and beyond their control.

You should seriously reconsider installing this game, unless you trust a third party company with complete control of you computer becuase that is exactly what they can do with this software installed.

This is far too intelligent and well thought out for these boards. I read these forums every day....and rarely comment...but damn this is an intelligent post. Well done....no idea what the hell you are talking about....but well written non the less. Kudos Sir.

That is quite frightening news.  Thank you for reporting that to us, Agent.  Information is power, and you just empowered us today with your words to live by when it comes to MMOGs.

 Wait wait wait. How does Gameguard stick on your system after uninstalling the game again? Its custom tailored to each release and only runs while the game is, and is uninstalled with the game. Elaborate. I'm not a fan of Gameguard because I personally think its fairly ineffective and overly restrictive, but if you're going to suggest something like that, detail is needed.

i commend you on overreacting to such minor things such as gameguard.

 It's a bit of a pain, but a  relatively small issue in the grand scheme of things. GameGuard is used by 30+ games, and is a very robust anti-cheat program. TBH I'd be pretty crushed if TCoS had botting rampant, because there's definitely situations in PvP where bots would be an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by Kordesh

 Wait wait wait. How does Gameguard stick on your system after uninstalling the game again? Its custom tailored to each release and only runs while the game is, and is uninstalled with the game. Elaborate. I'm not a fan of Gameguard because I personally think its fairly ineffective and overly restrictive, but if you're going to suggest something like that, detail is needed.

You are incorrect.  It leaves its systems files and the driver it installs behind after uninstalling TCoS and without registry editing and some other advanced user techniques it is uninstallable.  I am not proclaiming it is doing illicit things, that is not the point - but using the same methods of other malware even for a good purpose is not acceptable as that bypasses the user, removes control from the user, and is extremely prone to abuse.  But don't take my word for it, look at Wikipedia or any of thousands of sources saying the same thing:

GameGuard hides the game application process, monitors the entire memory range, terminates applications defined by the game vendor and INCA Internet to be cheats, blocks certain calls to DirectX functions and Windows APIs, and auto-updates itself to change as new threats surface. nProtect GameGuard is launched via GameMon.des with a driver dump_wmimmc.sys.

...

Because of its method of actuation (very similar to a rootkit), it is criticized for being extremely invasive, often without knowledge of the end user. The software installs a device driver which is difficult to uninstall; even uninstalling the game will still leave some files hidden on the system, but it stays inactive without the game. In recent versions (revision 1007 and up), GameGuard fails to halt when the game ends, so GameGuard continues to use computer resources and inject code into processes. This is often unknown to the end-user, as GameGuard masks its CPU usage by hooking Windows system querying APIs.

...

Because of the way that GameGuard hooks into core system DLLs, it is impossible to run games protected by GameGuard under Windows API Emulators, such as Wine under Unix-based operating systems. The key issue being that GameGuard bypass the OS safeguards in order to:

    * Hide the game application process.
    * Monitor the entire memory range.
    * Terminate specific applications without the user consent.
    * Block specific calls to DirectX or the windows API.

Did you seriously just cite Wikipedia in an intelligent debate on GameGuard? No offense but before I sound the alaram and worry about what a program does, I need a little more than a user edited database where anyone can post. Its the same reason I would automaticaly fail students who cite any Wiki in a paper...its about as unreliable as X-Fire stats.

Edit: Oh and let me add, if you are truly worried about privacy issues, you need to delete Windows immediately...its 1000 times more invasive than any rootkit. Just my opinion.

Google GameGuard yourself, or if you have the ability to do so look at what it installs and how it operates  and see for yourself.  GameGuard is just as invasive as something like SecureROM or even as malicious rootkits.  It operates in a way that circumvents the operating systems built in security and it monitors everything in memory.  It has the authority when active to kill any program or process running on a user’s computer without the users knowledge or approval.  In short, it basically gives a third party the ability to do just about whatever they want to your computer.   On top of that, just like SecureROM and other such programs that claim a good purpose even though they go about their purpose invasively, it is extraordinarily ineffective at stopping the cheats it is purposed to stop.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Forcing users to install two different third party programs, Pando Media Booster and GameGuard, in order to install and play TCoS really is ridiculous.  If you want to operate a professional pay to play MMO then invest in hosting services for trial downloads or come up with some other way that doesn't involve installing non game related programs and services on users computers that maintain a persistent presence even after uninstalling the game.  As for GameGuard - it is a rootkit and wholly inappropriate no matter what its claimed objective is.  Sure, they will say it is to stop cheats but installing rootkits that run code not only unknown to the user but beyond their administration or even beyond their ability to see what the program is doing is outright evil and unscrupulous.  On top of that, both these third party programs remain behind and active even if the user uninstalls TCoS - sounds like malware to me regardless of the intent.  It is high time software companies quit abusing their users and forcing the burden of protecting the companies IP and code or processes on to the consumer.  Hire better coders or otherwise innovate ways to handle the burden on without altering users computers without their knowledge and beyond their control.

 

You should seriously reconsider installing this game, unless you trust a third party company with complete control of you computer becuase that is exactly what they can do with this software installed.

Well, I played Linege 2 for years and never had any problems with gameguard except the few times when there were issues with it and L2. These were usually fixed promptly.

Other games use it as well. I can understand if people don't want it, that's fine but I think it's a bit of "the sky is falling".

It seems that a lot of asian games use it. I guess it's their poison of choice.

I've seen posts like this over the years, many from people who are trying to convince others of the same concerns. some even quit over it but then I've seen them come back. So I dont know if it was the concern of the month or if they really had huge issues and then forgot about them.

I currently don't have any games on my computer using game guard. Having said that, I had over the course of time had games that used it. I currently don't see any evidence that it is on my computer after uninstaling it. 

edit: There just seems to be a certain type of player out there who is very protective of their machines. They like to tweak things, know just about everything that the machine does and essentially treat them like a classic car. That's great if people like that sort of thing but I am a bit more laid back about such things. I don't see Game Guard as being an issue with interfereing with anything on my computer. Then again, I don't keep important things on my game computer for the very reason that it's a game computer.

duh its windows.  What dont get left behind after a uninstall?

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Forcing users to install two different third party programs, Pando Media Booster and GameGuard, in order to install and play TCoS really is ridiculous.  If you want to operate a professional pay to play MMO then invest in hosting services for trial downloads or come up with some other way that doesn't involve installing non game related programs and services on users computers that maintain a persistent presence even after uninstalling the game.  As for GameGuard - it is a rootkit and wholly inappropriate no matter what its claimed objective is.  Sure, they will say it is to stop cheats but installing rootkits that run code not only unknown to the user but beyond their administration or even beyond their ability to see what the program is doing is outright evil and unscrupulous.  On top of that, both these third party programs remain behind and active even if the user uninstalls TCoS - sounds like malware to me regardless of the intent.  It is high time software companies quit abusing their users and forcing the burden of protecting the companies IP and code or processes on to the consumer.  Hire better coders or otherwise innovate ways to handle the burden on without altering users computers without their knowledge and beyond their control.

 

You should seriously reconsider installing this game, unless you trust a third party company with complete control of you computer becuase that is exactly what they can do with this software installed.

Plenty of games use AhnGuard, GameGuard and other anti-cheat programs. I'm sorry that your recent revelation is causing you such distress.

If you need to uninstall it, there are programs to do that. However, since you have a track record of conspiracy theories and paranoia, here's the code to it so that you can inspect it and can compile it yourself.

//nProtectRemover, delete the security threat nProtect from your system.
//Coded by MugiMugi

#include <windows.h>
#include <winsvc.h>
#include <winbase.h>
#include <string>
#include <iostream>

bool StopService(LPCTSTR pszInternalName);
bool ServiceRemove(LPCTSTR pszInternalName);

int main(int, char**) {
std::string tmp;
std::cout << “This app will remove nProtect from your system, do you want
to continue type YES with big letters?\n:> “;
std::cin >> tmp;
if (tmp!=”YES”)
return 0;
std::cout << “Removing nProtect” << std::endl;

//Stoping npptnt2 service
if (!StopService(”npptnt2″))
{
std::cout << “Unable to stop device npptnt2″ << std::endl;
return 0;
}

//deleting npptnt2 service
if (!ServiceRemove(”npptnt2″))
{
std::cout << “Unable to delete device npptnt2″ << std::endl;
return 0;
}

//Deleting the registry stuff

RegDeleteKey(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE,”SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Services\\NPPTNT
2\\Security”);

RegDeleteKey(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE,”SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Services\\NPPTNT
2\\Enum”);

RegDeleteKey(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE,”SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Services\\NPPTNT
2″);

//Deleting npptnt2.sys and nppt9x.vxd
char buffer[MAX_PATH];
GetSystemDirectory(buffer,MAX_PATH);
std::string base(buffer);
std::string filename = base + “\\npptnt2.sys”;
DeleteFile(filename.c_str());
filename = base + “\\nppt9x.vxd”;
DeleteFile(filename.c_str());

//Bye bye
return 0;
}

// Stop service
bool StopService(LPCTSTR pszInternalName) {
SC_HANDLE hSCM = OpenSCManager(NULL, NULL, SC_MANAGER_CONNECT);

if (NULL == hSCM)
return false;

SC_HANDLE hService = OpenService(hSCM, pszInternalName, SERVICE_STOP);

if (NULL == hService)
{
CloseServiceHandle(hSCM);
return false;
}

SERVICE_STATUS ss;
bool bSuccess = ControlService(hService, SERVICE_CONTROL_STOP, &ss);

CloseServiceHandle(hService);
CloseServiceHandle(hSCM);

return bSuccess;
}

// Remove service
bool ServiceRemove(LPCTSTR pszInternalName) {
SC_HANDLE hSCM = OpenSCManager(NULL, NULL, SC_MANAGER_CONNECT);

if (NULL == hSCM)
return false;

SC_HANDLE hService = OpenService(hSCM, pszInternalName, DELETE);

if (NULL == hService)
{
CloseServiceHandle(hSCM);
return false;
}

bool bSuccess = DeleteService(hService);

CloseServiceHandle(hService);
CloseServiceHandle(hSCM);

return bSuccess;
}

I have TCoS installed, but cannot find where these files are installed at..

This version of GG installs nothing. It's totally contained in the client folder. Removing it is as simple as deleting the client folder. GMER and Blacklight come up clean after thorough scans. There are no hidden processes or drivers. It runs along side the main executable and only starts when the client starts. It shuts down cleanly. There is no background service or process running when the game is stopped. I even went as far as using the many uninstall instructions found around the net. Guess what? They don't apply here because nothing gets installed. The only thing it does is write a registry entry pointing to the client folder.

There is no trace of GG outside of the client folder. Nothing!

Is it really that vile?

 Honestly?  Just because something can screw up your computer doesn't mean it will.  Windows itself has far more destructive power then gameguard--but that doesn't mean that microsoft is going to take over your computer.

No, I'm not a fan of gameguard, but this is a bit of overreacting.  Secu-Rom and DRM may be invasive  too, but everyone uses it.  Feel free to stop using it, but no need to "warn" the rest of everyone about how it's out to get them.

I understand where you are coming from but consider this, just because something is not being abusive or malicious doesn't mean that it could become so in the future.  Furthermore, just like with SecureROM and other intrusive programs these software companies are shifting the burden of protecting or securing their business on consumers.  If we continue to take it then you can rest assured that at some point, likely we have past that point already, it will get to the point that it bothers even those who are laid back about such things.  But ask yourself if it is wholly innocent then why doesn't GameGuard, just like SecureROM and other such invasive programs, uninstall themselves when the host program (in this case TCoS) are uninstalled?  Why does it not list itself in the uninstall directory so it can be wholly removed by the user at any time?

As for GameGuard specifically, it is an ineffective anti cheat software program that in violation of just about any computer security best practices puiblications.  It hacks your operating systems built in safeguards and monitors all memory and it kill programs and process at the discretion of its programmers.  Prior versions, and possibly current versions, established a communication channel between the client computer and the company and exchanged information beyond simply updating.  The program updates itself without user approval or interaction as well.  This is what GameGuard does and how anyone could trust anyone with that kind of power over their computer is beyond me.

Originally posted by Cablespider

This version of GG installs nothing. It's totally contained in the client folder. Removing it is as simple as deleting the client folder. GMER and Blacklight come up clean after thorough scans. There are no hidden processes or drivers. It runs along side the main executable and only starts when the client starts. It shuts down cleanly. There is no background service or process running when the game is stopped. I even went as far as using the many uninstall instructions found around the net. Guess what? They don't apply here because nothing gets installed. The only thing it does is write a registry entry pointing to the client folder.

There is no trace of GG outside of the client folder. Nothing!

Is it really that vile?

Completely false.  Removing TCoS from its uninstalled leaves the game folder and the GameGuard folder contained therein, it leaves the registry settings for GameGuard, the hooks, and the files in the system folder (npptnt2.sys and/or nppt9x.vxd),  GameGuard is not removed on uninstalling TCoS, period.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I understand where you are coming from but consider this, just because something is not being abusive or malicious doesn't mean that it could become so in the future.  Furthermore, just like with SecureROM and other intrusive programs these software companies are shifting the burden of protecting or securing their business on consumers.  If we continue to take it then you can rest assured that at some point, likely we have past that point already, it will get to the point that it bothers even those who are laid back about such things.

 

As for GameGuard specifically, it is an ineffective anti cheat software program that in violation of just about any computer security best practices puiblications.  It hacks your operating systems built in safeguards and monitors all memory and it kill programs and process at the discretion of its programers.  Prior versions, and possibly current versions, established a communication channel between the client computer and the company and exchanged information beyond simply updating.  the program updates itself without user approval or interaction as well.  This is what GameGuard does and how anyone could trust anyone with that kind of power over their computer is beyond me.

Punkbuster does the same thing. It's used in many games and is mandatory when competing. Is this on your list of no-no's to?

I now have to ask you to back up your claims. This kind a drivel is damaging. Back it up and show readers that this is vile stuff. If you can, more power to you and I'd back you up. Until then, you're paranoid!

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I understand where you are coming from but consider this, just because something is not being abusive or malicious doesn't mean that it could become so in the future.  Furthermore, just like with SecureROM and other intrusive programs these software companies are shifting the burden of protecting or securing their business on consumers.  If we continue to take it then you can rest assured that at some point, likely we have past that point already, it will get to the point that it bothers even those who are laid back about such things.  But ask yourself if it is wholly innocent then why doesn't GameGuard, just like SecureROM and other such invasive programs, uninstall themselves when the host program (in this case TCoS) are uninstalled?  Why does it not list itself in the uninstall directory so it can be wholly removed by the user at any time?

 

As for GameGuard specifically, it is an ineffective anti cheat software program that in violation of just about any computer security best practices puiblications.  It hacks your operating systems built in safeguards and monitors all memory and it kill programs and process at the discretion of its programers.  Prior versions, and possibly current versions, established a communication channel between the client computer and the company and exchanged information beyond simply updating.  The program updates itself without user approval or interaction as well.  This is what GameGuard does and how anyone could trust anyone with that kind of power over their computer is beyond me.

 

No offense, but it sounds like you have seen "I, Robot" one too many times. You make it sounds like one day TCOS will flip a switch and all of our computers with it installed will start sending all of our personal data to them so they can hack us and take over our lives.

The thing is there is a difference in the ability to do something and that fact it will.

If everything you say is true and GameGuard IS this malicious, then there would be lawsuit after lawsuit, BB reports, government intervention into the matter and legal ties ups for months on end. I have seen nothing of the sort. It is just another security software that does what it is supposed to do (as best as we can tell) and causes people to come up with crazy conspiracy theories. If the power that it has is ever abused then so be it....there will be lawsuits and the legal system will take care of it.

Personally, as I mentioned before, I am more concerned about what Windows has the power to do, or my X-Box, or my Wii than I am GameGuard. or the fact I give my personal info to car rental companies, my bank and whatever else I do online.

Add to that things like finding a job, banks failing and GMC/Chrysler facing bankruptcy, I honestly am not that concerned about some little piece of software on some game on my computer. There are much bigger concerns to be honest.

PunkBuster asks if it can be installed and you can choose not to even if, depending on the game, you can limit your options for MP without it.  Punkbuster also allows full uninstallation and doesn't hide its processes from the user or the operating system itself.  There is a huge difference between legitimate software like PunkBuster that does things correctly and semi malicious (malicious method even if not malicious intent) software like GameGuard, SecureROM, and others.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

PunkBuster asks if it can be installed and you can choose not to even if, depending on the game, you can limit your options for MP without it.  Punkbuster also allows full uninstallation and doesn't hide its processes from the user or the operating system itself.  There is a huge difference between legitimate software like PunkBuster that does things correctly and semi malicious (malicious method even if not malicious intent) software like GameGuard, SecureROM, and others.

When I un-installed COD4, it left Punkbuster on my computer  and it continued to run and it stayed there until I manually went it and deleted it from the Prgram Files or wherever it was at.