Im not sure why theres so much angst about a questhelper type system in game, especially since it's optional.  Dont like it? dont use it.  Mayb Turbines trying to get more casual players with limited time to come to the game.  A bigger population certainly wouldnt hurt.  When I played on my server I could run across a map and not see anyone inless I was in one of the main cities. 

Originally posted by Broomy

Im not sure why theres so much angst about a questhelper type system in game, especially since it's optional.  Dont like it? dont use it.  Mayb Turbines trying to get more casual players with limited time to come to the game.  A bigger population certainly wouldnt hurt.  When I played on my server I could run across a map and not see anyone inless I was in one of the main cities. 

Lanroval is pretty well populated and they say Brandwine is the highest pop.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Broomy

Im not sure why theres so much angst about a questhelper type system in game, especially since it's optional.  Dont like it? dont use it.  Mayb Turbines trying to get more casual players with limited time to come to the game.  A bigger population certainly wouldnt hurt.  When I played on my server I could run across a map and not see anyone inless I was in one of the main cities. 

Lanroval is pretty well populated and they say Brandwine is the highest pop.

I was on Gladden.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

An arrow on the compass?? Are you kidding me???

Great. Yet another game ruined by the drooling connect-the-dots WoW drones.

 

Y'know it's 'off' by default - you have to purposefully click it.

And besides, in real life, if my boss said, 'i need you to pick up some very important papers north of town', I'd probably ask some follow up questions, rather than driving blindly north, excited about the 'challenge' of completing the quest.

Try asking your next npc follow-up questions, they way you would for an 'actual' quest. Hey look at that....the root of the word 'question' is 'quest', and yet, in-game you cannot ask them.

Sounds like a quest tracker is a good alternative.

Don't get me wrong,  I do think there should be some mystery involved in some content, however, I don't go to an npc to pick up a 'mystery', I'm looking for a quest, for which I can ask zero "quest"ions.

I always thought the point of games like LotRO were to ecscape real life? And you are comparing "picking up papers" to a quest in LotRO

I've always enjoyed the challenge of the LotRO Quests, I have my minimap off and use the sun and moon for direction, and the only types of maps i use are ones i have drawn or written out. I remember the quest in the Shire where you have to help someone find two people they are playing hide and seek with, and after you find them he tells you to find the "best" hider in the shire, sure it took me 30-45 minutes to find him but it was a blast!

Some of you who like to immerse yourself into games should try what i do.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk
 

I try to be nice to people on the forums but come the hell on! Oh no I have to engage my brain, I'd much prefer mindless tell me exactly where to go and exactly what to do with no thought or freedom involved please.

 

They have these "studies" that say video games make people less intelligent, maybe people are making video games less intelligent.

If you do not like the feature then do not activate it. And i can tell how nice you are trying to be.

True, it is optional. But where does it stop? Is this the last added game-helping-mechanic? Probably not, because people will become as lazy as the game allows them to be. Look at Rune of Magic, it has a option that allows your toon to auto-run to the quest objectives. When will this be an "accepted" option? Options isnt aways a good, atleast not in the long run.

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

It just proves that RPG will always be a niche marked. It must be WoWed to become mainstream.

Originally posted by BesCirga

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk
 

I try to be nice to people on the forums but come the hell on! Oh no I have to engage my brain, I'd much prefer mindless tell me exactly where to go and exactly what to do with no thought or freedom involved please.

 

They have these "studies" that say video games make people less intelligent, maybe people are making video games less intelligent.

If you do not like the feature then do not activate it. And i can tell how nice you are trying to be.

 

True, it is optional. But where does it stop? Is this the last added game-helping-mechanic? Probably not, because people will become as lazy as the game allows them to be. Look at Rune of Magic, it has a option that allows your toon to auto-run to the quest objectives. When will this be an "accepted" option? Options isnt aways a good, atleast not in the long run.

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

It just proves that RPG will always be a niche marked. It must be WoWed to become mainstream.

And this post just proves ( this whole thread actually) how ignorant people are. Im going to the doctor now and get a brain wipe, right after i delete this website from my favorites.  Why dont you and the other, purist gamers, actually go and play a game? There is little doubt that you play nothing at all. How could you? All games suck except the ones you played 15 yrs ago.  Snobs in video games, who would have imagined that?

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by BesCirga

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk
 

 

True, it is optional. But where does it stop? Is this the last added game-helping-mechanic? Probably not, because people will become as lazy as the game allows them to be. Look at Rune of Magic, it has a option that allows your toon to auto-run to the quest objectives. When will this be an "accepted" option? Options isnt aways a good, atleast not in the long run.

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

It just proves that RPG will always be a niche marked. It must be WoWed to become mainstream.

And this post just proves ( this whole thread actually) how ignorant people are. Im going to the doctor now and get a brain wipe, right after i delete this website from my favorites.  Why dont you and the other, purist gamers, actually go and play a game? There is little doubt that you play nothing at all. How could you? All games suck except the ones you played 15 yrs ago.  Snobs in video games, who would have imagined that?

I'm guessing part of that is directed at me. I currently play LotRO, a bit of DDO, and still some AC. I canceled WAR a couple months back because it just wasn't any fun. I had even played WoW for a while, and then went back to it for a while longer after the first expansion. I do in fact always have at least one MMO sub going, often times more then one.

My shock was at someone finding LotRO's quests tough to follow, not only is it descriptive but then when you look at it again in the quest panel it has a sum up of: go here do this come back. It's so very clear I am actually fully amazed that someone finds it to be complex. I enjoy LotRO and it wasn't the game I was knocking it was the person.

But yes I highly hate the trend of getting into an MMO and it saying ok go to this exact spot, do this very easy task, no go to that guy specifically right there now do this other easy task. Now go to this other town, and here's exactly how to get there and some waypoints are on the map and the compass will point you always at where to go. There is no fun in that, and it does in fact drain fun out  of the game. It has nothing to do with being a purist, it has to do with wanting some fun, wanting to get to figure things out, wanting quests to actually be challenging and for there to be penalties for losing/dying so that there is excitement when you almost do die.

So when I see people constantly saying ok it's easy but make it easier, sweet now make it even easier, I get a little upset.

I truly don't see how people find it fun to be told exactly what to do and where to go and how to do it every step of the way and then have it end, I watch movies for that type of interaction.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by BesCirga 

True, it is optional. But where does it stop? Is this the last added game-helping-mechanic? Probably not, because people will become as lazy as the game allows them to be. Look at Rune of Magic, it has a option that allows your toon to auto-run to the quest objectives. When will this be an "accepted" option? Options isnt aways a good, atleast not in the long run.

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

It just proves that RPG will always be a niche marked. It must be WoWed to become mainstream.

And this post just proves ( this whole thread actually) how ignorant people are. Im going to the doctor now and get a brain wipe, right after i delete this website from my favorites.  Why dont you and the other, purist gamers, actually go and play a game? There is little doubt that you play nothing at all. How could you? All games suck except the ones you played 15 yrs ago.  Snobs in video games, who would have imagined that?

You should actually delete all forums form your favorites, because you are not very good at reading and finding the point in a post.

Im not bashing lotro for adding a quest helper as an option. I am worried where this is heading. One day a quest helper - the next an auto-run function to quest objectives...whats next? Running into town - find a quest NPC - NPC says "hello" - click accept quest - NPC says "came back in 10 minutes and recieve your reward (because we have to have a time-sink somewhere  ) - Returns after 10 minutes - recieve XP.

Whats the point in playing a RPG when you dont like RPGing?

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

 My shock was at someone finding LotRO's quests tough to follow, not only is it descriptive but then when you look at it again in the quest panel it has a sum up of: go here do this come back. It's so very clear I am actually fully amazed that someone finds it to be complex. I enjoy LotRO and it wasn't the game I was knocking it was the person.

But yes I highly hate the trend of getting into an MMO and it saying ok go to this exact spot, do this very easy task, no go to that guy specifically right there now do this other easy task. Now go to this other town, and here's exactly how to get there and some waypoints are on the map and the compass will point you always at where to go. There is no fun in that, and it does in fact drain fun out  of the game. It has nothing to do with being a purist, it has to do with wanting some fun, wanting to get to figure things out, wanting quests to actually be challenging and for there to be penalties for losing/dying so that there is excitement when you almost do die.

 So when I see people constantly saying ok it's easy but make it easier, sweet now make it even easier, I get a little upset.

 I truly don't see how people find it fun to be told exactly what to do and where to go and how to do it every step of the way and then have it end, I watch movies for that type of interaction.

If you are shocked then it's time to actually wake up ;)

You would be surprised of how very casual and not so casual players have a hard time finding or remembering locations. I invite you to have a look at this thread : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=168132

In the above example there are no way you can find any of the locations without knowing where they exactly are.

Let's say you have 25+ quests in your log, wandered a lot through multiple zones picked up quests here and there, don't play regularly well you are screwed. You need to use external web sites not only to find were to do quests, but more annoying to report them back, like your character got amnesia...

What I find funny is the purists that are shouting high and loud against an optional feature that don't even change their game play and make others have fun.

Originally posted by BesCirga

True, it is optional. But where does it stop? Is this the last added game-helping-mechanic? Probably not, because people will become as lazy as the game allows them to be. Look at Rune of Magic, it has a option that allows your toon to auto-run to the quest objectives. When will this be an "accepted" option? Options isnt aways a good, atleast not in the long run.

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

It just proves that RPG will always be a niche marked. It must be WoWed to become mainstream.

I'm was also a DM since D&D first edition, oh yeah :)

I'd like to say how I'd love to have a Dungeon Siege autoloot system and mule system. Am I lazy, sure thing! But I find it pretty much boring and not adding any fun at all to be obliged to actually click on corpses to loot them.

I also wanted to add, so far I never ever saw an MMO that really needed you to use your brain more than reflexes and timed actions.

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

 My shock was at someone finding LotRO's quests tough to follow, not only is it descriptive but then when you look at it again in the quest panel it has a sum up of: go here do this come back. It's so very clear I am actually fully amazed that someone finds it to be complex. I enjoy LotRO and it wasn't the game I was knocking it was the person.

But yes I highly hate the trend of getting into an MMO and it saying ok go to this exact spot, do this very easy task, no go to that guy specifically right there now do this other easy task. Now go to this other town, and here's exactly how to get there and some waypoints are on the map and the compass will point you always at where to go. There is no fun in that, and it does in fact drain fun out  of the game. It has nothing to do with being a purist, it has to do with wanting some fun, wanting to get to figure things out, wanting quests to actually be challenging and for there to be penalties for losing/dying so that there is excitement when you almost do die.

 So when I see people constantly saying ok it's easy but make it easier, sweet now make it even easier, I get a little upset.

 I truly don't see how people find it fun to be told exactly what to do and where to go and how to do it every step of the way and then have it end, I watch movies for that type of interaction.

If you are shocked then it's time to actually wake up ;)

You would be surprised of how very casual and not so casual players have a hard time finding or remembering locations. I invite you to have a look at this thread : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=168132

In the above example there are no way you can find any of the locations without knowing where they exactly are.

Let's say you have 25+ quests in your log, wandered a lot through multiple zones picked up quests here and there, don't play regularly well you are screwed. You need to use external web sites not only to find were to do quests, but more annoying to report them back, like your character got amnesia...

What I find funny is the purists that are shouting high and loud against an optional feature that don't even change their game play and make others have fun. 

I went to your link and found an extremely helpfull, well thought out post.

"The text usually gives some indication of where the quest giver was located. Also check out the history button since that gives the original dialog. If that doesn't help, then you can always cancel the quest and find it again with the little ring icon on the minimap."

Even a casual player should be able to use those tips to figure out where to go and what to do, sadly it may take you more then 5 seconds to find the location though.

And if you are playing so casually to forget everything you did the last time you logged in, why are you filling your quest log with everything you can find when you know you won't be on for a while and will forget where you got it all from?

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

I went to your link and found an extremely helpfull, well thought out post.

"The text usually gives some indication of where the quest giver was located. Also check out the history button since that gives the original dialog. If that doesn't help, then you can always cancel the quest and find it again with the little ring icon on the minimap."

Even a casual player should be able to use those tips to figure out where to go and what to do, sadly it may take you more then 5 seconds to find the location though.

 

And if you are playing so casually to forget everything you did the last time you logged in, why are you filling your quest log with everything you can find when you know you won't be on for a while and will forget where you got it all from?

There is one "small" issue with your statement: none of the 2 locations mentionned in the quest are marked on any maps and there are no others indications that can help find them.

Regarding you last comment, are you saying pleople shouldn't take quests nor be free to wander where they can  because they might play casually?

Seriously are we talking about a game here or what?

Bescirga:

 

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

We're not talking about an actual role playing game here. Sure there's a role play channel where people can pretend this is real or something but this is a very small minority. Generally, players will want to play a MMOG because this is really a computer game, not a tabletop role playing game.

Originally posted by pussaykat

That would help me a lot. I tried to find a nicely written website for quests but i didn't look hard enough.

http://dynmap.ruslotro.com

Originally posted by pussaykat

Bescirga:

 

If the character development and the questing aspect of MMOs get even more watered down, as it is now, they might aswell remove the last three letters in MMORPG. In the 15 years I've GM'ed RPG games, I have never told my players where to go to find the solution to a quest. If I did, I would ruin the fun for the players. And, I dont buy the "some people just like to relax after a hard days work" argument. If thinking strains you out, then you got bigger issues then finding quest objectives. If you dont want to use your brain - play a console game, not an RPG game.

 

We're not talking about an actual role playing game here. Sure there's a role play channel where people can pretend this is real or something but this is a very small minority. Generally, players will want to play a MMOG because this is really a computer game, not a tabletop role playing game.

Neither am I....

RPG is Character Development. RPG is Role-playing a character. RPG is doing adventures with your friends. RPG is finding solution to riddles. RPG is drawing the magical sword out of the stone. The very foundation of a RPG is a story, a QUEST which the characters are set out to solve. See what Im getting at? Its like asking for auto-aim in a FPS game...

O.K. after reading my June copy of PC Gamer magazine I think I have the solution for everybody. Those that feel the quest directions in LOTRO or other MMO's are too hard need to play Ether Saga Online. Here is the exact quote from the magazine: "Killing quest mobs is a lot more fun than trying to find quest mobs, Ether Saga Online's quests include links that automatically navigate your character to each objective location. Over bridges, around buildings, up stairs." There you go. Theres your mmo to all you who think quests are too hard in other games. This described what you want just perfectly!

I personally say " are you frikkin' kidding me? Are we actually going to play a game that ends up playing it for us?" But hey, this is perfect for those that want this kind of help. For the rest of us we can continue to play our "difficult" MMO's and enjoy the exploring on the way to our quest objectives.

Originally posted by MidniteHowl

O.K. after reading my June copy of PC Gamer magazine I think I have the solution for everybody. Those that feel the quest directions in LOTRO or other MMO's are too hard need to play Ether Saga Online. Here is the exact quote from the magazine: "Killing quest mobs is a lot more fun than trying to find quest mobs, Ether Saga Online's quests include links that automatically navigate your character to each objective location. Over bridges, around buildings, up stairs." There you go. Theres your mmo to all you who think quests are too hard in other games. This described what you want just perfectly!

 

I personally say " are you frikkin' kidding me? Are we actually going to play a game that ends up playing it for us?" But hey, this is perfect for those that want this kind of help. For the rest of us we can continue to play our "difficult" MMO's and enjoy the exploring on the way to our quest objectives.

 

Just which "difficult" MMO are you playing? Ive played most of the fantasy  PTP games and am curious. Or are you "gameless" and feel the need to troll the boards trying to convince yourself you are a hardcore, perma death, pvp animal? A difficult MMO? Who is frikkin kidding who? Be true to thine self little warrior.

Originally posted by Wrender

Questing hard? You have got to be kidding. LotRO is a third grade hand holding crappy but eye candy looking game now. Thanks to the last major patch. But you can find a challenge (thankfully) if you run off exploring and try to find mobs that are white, yellow, or orange. But now I have been deleting all lower quests completely from my journal. Only reason i still even play this is because my wife likes it and she can't even read the quests. But we have fun running around together. She is dyslexic.

         Yeah I prety much have to agree with this......LoTRO is about as soft as they come for an MMO......There may be an area or two you have trouble finding or an NPC that is located in a hard spot but overall the game is as hand holding as they get.........

Originally posted by Theocritus

Originally posted by Wrender

Questing hard? You have got to be kidding. LotRO is a third grade hand holding crappy but eye candy looking game now. Thanks to the last major patch. But you can find a challenge (thankfully) if you run off exploring and try to find mobs that are white, yellow, or orange. But now I have been deleting all lower quests completely from my journal. Only reason i still even play this is because my wife likes it and she can't even read the quests. But we have fun running around together. She is dyslexic.

 

         Yeah I prety much have to agree with this......LoTRO is about as soft as they come for an MMO......There may be an area or two you have trouble finding or an NPC that is located in a hard spot but overall the game is as hand holding as they get.........

Ever been in Moria?

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by MidniteHowl

O.K. after reading my June copy of PC Gamer magazine I think I have the solution for everybody. Those that feel the quest directions in LOTRO or other MMO's are too hard need to play Ether Saga Online. Here is the exact quote from the magazine: "Killing quest mobs is a lot more fun than trying to find quest mobs, Ether Saga Online's quests include links that automatically navigate your character to each objective location. Over bridges, around buildings, up stairs." There you go. Theres your mmo to all you who think quests are too hard in other games. This described what you want just perfectly!

 

I personally say " are you frikkin' kidding me? Are we actually going to play a game that ends up playing it for us?" But hey, this is perfect for those that want this kind of help. For the rest of us we can continue to play our "difficult" MMO's and enjoy the exploring on the way to our quest objectives.

 

Just which "difficult" MMO are you playing? Ive played most of the fantasy  PTP games and am curious. Or are you "gameless" and feel the need to troll the boards trying to convince yourself you are a hardcore, perma death, pvp animal? A difficult MMO? Who is frikkin kidding who? Be true to thine self little warrior.

Well o.k. there gramps! Obviously you took some offense to the word "difficult". Also, do you think I would be wasting my time coming to a board like this and not be into MMO's? Let me start with saying that I'm currently subscribed to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. That is the only current sub, but let me list all the mmo's I have subscribed to at one time. Here they are in no particular order:

Everquest

Everquest 2

Lord of the Rings

Star Wars Galaxies

City of Heroes

Warhammer Online

World of Warcraft

Now, that's the ones that require pay-to-play here's the F2P:

Runes of Magic

Wizard 101

Dungeon Runners

Guild Wars

Then that doesn't even include the fact that I have beta tested many more games that I never ended up playing after it's release. Listen, I am a fan of MMO's and to be honest, I was going to try Ether Saga Online until I read that part in the magazine. I may still try it because it said it was a link that is in the quest log, so it sounded like something you can use if you want. Also, no I don't consider myself "hardcore, perma-death, pvp animal" I can't be hardcore because I'm an adult with priorities over sitting at my computer for 12 hours straight, MMo's is hobby not life for me. I don't like perma-death because I enjoy building up a character and don't want to lose all my hard work over a death, and PvP is fun but not a necessary component for me.

I don't know why you got so defensive. Did I quote you or name you before I posted that? NO! So sounds to me like your the gamer that wants the game to play it for him. It was the game I'm talking about when I say " are you frikkin' kidding me?" OK now it's your turn. I'm not trying to be a smart-arse right now, I'm actually curious as to what mmo's you have played.