Originally posted by adrala

Errr mate before talking crap about a game...how about you actually visit the webpage and read a line or two abou thte game?

I have no idea of nuclear phisics and you will not see me on nuclear phisics forum giving my opinion. I think this is common sense.

So back to topic.

Where and when did devs say mounted combat will be like Mount & Blade. Please post a link to this info.  Becouse I think its just your imagination and urge to bash a game for  not having TPV.

Becouse, dear friend if you have visited the Mo webpageyouw ould have seen the in-game video and you would have seen how greatly the mounted combat and view is done. 

I'm not talking crap about the game I'm talking crap about the "FPV is more realistic" argument.

The M&B comarison was quite a while ago.  I don't keep track of these things but it must have been at least five months ago.  I'm not going to try to dig it up because I don't remember which part of their forums it was on or if it's even still there.  If they aren't saying that now I'll just take your word for it.

And fair enough, I haven't been keeping close tabs on the game so I went to you tube and looked through some videos of MO.  I found one in which the guy gets on a horse and rides it a bit.  As long as he kept his camera angled down a little you could see the horses head and I'll admit it was better than the M&B mounted FPV.  However, it's still the same old tunnel vision that FPV always gives and will always give.  Untill we are all using VR goggles to play games first person view will always be seriously flawed.

Again, it's not a desire to dis the game that sucked me into this it was that "realism" BS.  I actually hope that MO does well because I like almost everything else that they've said about it except for the FPV only thing.  And I'm not trying to change the FPV limitation, I just can't help sometimes chiming in on arguments about FPV versus TPV because I'm just as opinionated as the rest of you.

As a side note, I noticed in that video that when the rider looked staight down he was holding the reins with both hands AND holding on to the front of the saddle.  No real horseman holds the reins with both hands and only beginners hold on to the saddle.  Maybe somebody should mention that to the devs.  On the other hand, probably not many people would know any better.

Originally posted by Neanderthal 

And fair enough, I haven't been keeping close tabs on the game so I went to you tube and looked through some videos of MO.  I found one in which the guy gets on a horse and rides it a bit.  As long as he kept his camera angled down a little you could see the horses head and I'll admit it was better than the M&B mounted FPV.  However, it's still the same old tunnel vision that FPV always gives and will always give.  Untill we are all using VR goggles to play games first person view will always be seriously flawed.

And until we can start viewing ourselves from TPV in the real world, TPV will always be seriously flawed.

In TPV realism gets thrown out of the window right from the start. Or are you saying that viewing the world from a magical invisible floating camera that hovers around you is realistic? In FPV you see the world from the eyes of the character and that's a million times more realistic.

The only people who constantly complain about the limited peripheral vision are the people who have not played FPV games in the past and are just not used to it. There are millions of people who greatly enjoy FPV games and don't feel in any way hindered by the few shortcomings it has.

The devs are not trying to cater for everyone, that was never their plan, they are making a niche market. Here's a quote from a dev:

"MO has never been intended for the casual market. We're targeting a niche area in the MMORPG genre that we feel is empty. Not because it hasn't been successful, but because it simply hasn't been explored or exploited since early UO. It's a hardcore area, but not necessarily because it's violent or promotes full loot - it's hardcore because it demands something from you as a player. Some like the idea of a hardcore game because it would allow for more roleplay. Some like it because its.. more difficult, and therefore more rewarding. Some like it because they feel it's more immersive. Other think it's more mature, or that it will attract more mature players. I personally hope for all of the above.

If this leaves little room for the casual players, I couldn't care less. There are a hundred other games for them. But you're right, if we counted on even 1/10th of the number of WoW's player base, of course we wouldn't "make it". But we don't. We don't even count on 1/100th of it. We make a game we feel is missing on the market, and I'm very happy to see that this forum proves we're not alone in thinking so. And who knows, maybe the increasing number of carbon-copy casual MMO games out there have actually helped, by nurturing a small but increasing number of players that want something else?"

I'd like to meet the person who actually liked and used the 3rd person in Oblivion.  Sure they offered it but it was terrible.  Difference between the single player and the MMO community?  The MMO community b**** about everything, if the devs put in a 3rd person view and it would be bad (because they never planned it in the first place) then I would guarentee more people would complain about it and ask for it to be removed than praise it or enjoy it.

As for the no perifferal vision (excuse my poor spelling) it is counteracted by how quickly you turn in games.  I'm not saying i can't turn that quickly in real life but i sure as hell can't do it over and over again at the same speed.

Anyway i am so fed up with all these silly threads popping up over and over again.

FPV is the closest we can get to reality currently. It's amazingly immersive. While playing Oblivion, I regularly caught myself moving the mouse as if it were a sword in combat (sure, this may be wierd, but I found it awesome!). Combat required some strategy, where you could dodge blows and even block them! I just can't take the regular auto-attack in TPV games. The limitations included in FPV make it even more exciting, because you have to constantly look over your shoulder.

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

The devs are not trying to cater for everyone, that was never their plan, they are making a niche market. Here's a quote from a dev:

 

"MO has never been intended for the casual market. We're targeting a niche area in the MMORPG genre that we feel is empty. Not because it hasn't been successful, but because it simply hasn't been explored or exploited since early UO. It's a hardcore area, but not necessarily because it's violent or promotes full loot - it's hardcore because it demands something from you as a player. Some like the idea of a hardcore game because it would allow for more roleplay. Some like it because its.. more difficult, and therefore more rewarding. Some like it because they feel it's more immersive. Other think it's more mature, or that it will attract more mature players. I personally hope for all of the above.

If this leaves little room for the casual players, I couldn't care less. There are a hundred other games for them. But you're right, if we counted on even 1/10th of the number of WoW's player base, of course we wouldn't "make it". But we don't. We don't even count on 1/100th of it. We make a game we feel is missing on the market, and I'm very happy to see that this forum proves we're not alone in thinking so. And who knows, maybe the increasing number of carbon-copy casual MMO games out there have actually helped, by nurturing a small but increasing number of players that want something else?"

 

That's fine but I'm not sure how this particular quote relates to the camera view discussion.  By including this quote in this discussion are you trying to say that the camera view options of a game determines whether it is a casual or hardcore game?

If a game had open PvP, full loot, perma-death, no teleportors, no easy transportation at all, no mini-map, no map, mobs that could one-shot the players, and it took 1000 hours of grinding for a player to make even a tiny gain; would that game then be classified as a "casual" game if it had a third person camera view option?

If WoW were a first person view only game would it be classified as a "hardcore" game?

The point of adding that quote was to show that the devs won't care if people cry about not having TPV or any other feature for that matter. They are creating the game according to their vision and that's that.

Thought the reason for that quote was quite obvious. I guess I didn't count on people trying to misinterpret me on purpose.

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

Thought the reason for that quote was quite obvious. I guess I didn't count on people trying to misinterpret me on purpose.

Given that the quote was entirely about hardcore versus casual and given that you chose to use that specific quote in a discussion about camera views you shouldn't be suprised if it gives the impression that you think camera views have something to do with whether or not a game is hardcore or casual.

Since you say I misinterpretted you does that means that you agree that camera view options have nothing to do with a game being hardcore or casual? 

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

Thought the reason for that quote was quite obvious. I guess I didn't count on people trying to misinterpret me on purpose.

 

Given that the quote was entirely about hardcore versus casual and given that you chose to use that specific quote in a discussion about camera views you shouldn't be suprised if it gives the impression that you think camera views have something to do with whether or not a game is hardcore or casual.

Since you say I misinterpretted you does that means that you agree that camera view options have nothing to do with a game being hardcore or casual? 

If you read the quote, then it's pretty obvious Mats (the dev) wasn't talking about PoV, but MO in general. In my mind, the quote suited this thread very well, since it describes the design principles of the devs.

And of course I agree that you can make a hardcore game with TPV and you can make a casual game with FPV, or vice versa. That being said, I do believe that controlling your character in FPV takes more skill and situational awareness from the player, than controlling it in TPV. But that too depends largely on game mechanics.

This thread is a delight

 Delicious tears. Please cry more. 3rd persion view won't be in, your tears are just so yummy.

nomnomnomnom

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

If you read the quote, then it's pretty obvious Mats (the dev) wasn't talking about PoV, but MO in general. In my mind, the quote suited this thread very well, since it describes the design principles of the devs.

And of course I agree that you can make a hardcore game with TPV and you can make a casual game with FPV, or vice versa. That being said, I do believe that controlling your character in FPV takes more skill and situational awareness from the player, than controlling it in TPV. But that too depends largely on game mechanics.

I think you missed Neanderthal's point, Lightsaber.

Neanderthal was talking about the argument that FPV is more realistic than TPV.  He doesn't care about MO only having FPV and I don't think he wants to add TPV to MO.  He was simply commenting that people saying FPV is realistic is a bit of an exaggeration.

Now with that out of the way.  I agree with Neanderthal.  In my opinion TPV is vastly more realistic that FPV because of the realistic situational awareness and FOV.  TPV makes up for us not actually being there by allowing us to see our surroundings, see our character's position, and get a broader FOV.

I find FPV extremely unrealistic and actually irritating most of the time.  It has a very narrow FOV, I have absolutley no artifical situational awareness of my surroundings to make up for not actually being there, and the weapons block a large portion of the FOV when equipped so you get even less of a viewable area.

In closing.  I know MO will only have FPV and I will be trying it out.  This post, and Neanderthal's posts, have nothing to do with MO.  We are both commenting on the FPV vs. TPV discussion.

I think they are doing something foolish after watching the beta video with the torch and sword.  But they could probably fix it with some artwork improvements.

No one carries a lit torch sitting in the middle of their direct field of view - it would, in effect, blind you!  Hold it above your head and off to the side, our of your direct line of sight you twit! 

One of the major issues with FPV is that in a game you only have one eye.  A sword in your view fully blocks that part of your vision.  In reality most people have 2 eyes.  Blocking the view of one does not create a blind spot - the other eye fills in the blank area. You also have very little depth perspective as that is, once again, something 2 eyes gives you.  

so now I am stuck between thinking, ick, that looks horrible and oh, that world looks very detailed, would be fun to explore that!  I think its another wait for the free trial game for me. 

Originally posted by horrid  

I think they are doing something foolish after watching the beta video with the torch and sword.  But they could probably fix it with some artwork improvements.

No one carries a lit torch sitting in the middle of their direct field of view - it would, in effect, blind you!  Hold it above your head and off to the side, our of your direct line of sight you twit! 

From a developer: 

"Yes, OF COURSE. Sorry, the torch is treated as a second weapon right now, as we didn't have time to tie the torch-animations to the torch. It's very illogical, as the torch should be held above your head, not blinding you by taking up valuable screen-space"

What? No, not possible.  Where is the dev yelling at people telling them they are not hardcore enough??

Given that kind of dev feedback I think I might start watching MO a little closer - I can probably adapt to the FPV after a few days.  I like the sound of most of what they are doing. 

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Originally posted by horrid
What? No, not possible.  Where is the dev yelling at people telling them they are not hardcore enough??
Given that kind of dev feedback I think I might start watching MO a little closer - I can probably adapt to the FPV after a few days.  I like the sound of most of what they are doing. 
 

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The main thing is, TPV makes FPV into a disadvantage, making FPV not an option any longer. SV also have to make 2 system if they have to support TPV.  So just allowing FPV is the way to go. Test it, you might like it.