Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by mantii

Originally posted by Promeus

I HATE GAME DEVELOPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

All games are crap mash A button easy win games! How do people get a sense of accomplishment from beating a game that 99% of the people who buy the game will beat!!! I want hard games! I dont want carebear games

Yes because I want to buy a game that I hardly have any chance of beating.  I understand you want a challenge but fuck man...what about people who dont have 60+ hours to devote to a video game every week.  I'm sure you dont care about those people.  You probably only care about what you want.  Which...sometimes is a good thing but when it comes to general opinion you are definitely wrong.  MOST people odnt want to have to spend hours upon hours camping or getting ganked to get a single thing.  While I do admit EQ1 was a LOT of fun back in the day, I dont see that any developers will go back to this way of gameplay simply because there isn't enough money in it.  I used to love camping a specific spawn for hours upon hours, but that was back when I was in highschool.  I'm now in college and I understand completely the concept of "casual gaming."   While I would love to have a game that brought it back to the roots it would just be impossible to get the subscription needed to be REALLY successful as opposed to "stable" and being able to pay the bills with a little bit of extra income.  I'm not sure if what  I said makes sense because im ultra drunk right now and it took me quite a while to make sure this paragraph was pretty much gramaticaly correct.

Do you think your generation is the last generation to have a lot of time to devote to an MMO? You say you enjoyed camping endless hours for bosses. There is countless high school/college kids out there with countless hours to devote. Money is out there for the developers to make a game that is not casual friendly You just grew up and moved on from that stage in your life. There are enough people out there to support an old type EQ 1 or new FFXI type game. The new generation is being deprived of these harder style MMO's. You casual gamers need to stop whining about a game that the hardcore players want. If you dont have the time fine (thats prety much an excuse to make you feel better about yourself). Be honest with yourself and dont even pick a copy of it up. 

I WANT DEATH PENALTYS IN MMOS Harsh death penaltys. Drop equiptment when you die lots of it lose a level lose gold lose everything!!! PERMADEATH Like diablo 2!!!!

I agree with everything except "PERMADEATH."  I do think permadeath would be cool on a selective server but not as a forced requirement for a game.  If you wanted to play on that type of server I believe it should be offered.  It would be fun I think but I think there is an EXTREMELY small amount of people who would want to play on this type of server.  The other stuff you mentioned is fine with me.  It makes you make decisions better and not make stupid/dumb decisions, which makes you a better player overall.

Not a fan of perm-death either, but I wouldnt rule out playing a game due to just pem-death.

The hardes mmo right now is probally final fantasy but I just got tired why cant other developers make games like it? Make games hard again please!!! I hate that our society if filled with a bunch of people who cry because a game is to hard. It should be hard then when you finally beat it you have actually accomplished something to brag about. When you reach the highest lvl its something not many people can or have done!

I pretty much agree with you here except I dont beliee final fantasy is a "hard" game.  I believe it forces one to group but it is also a solo game.  It is ever hard to solo and gain significant XP compared to grouping but it is viable.  I think they did a lot of things right with FFXI and I loved the game myself but it also should have the OPTION of leveling solo just as easily as it does with grouping.  FFXI did a lot of cool things in their MMO and I would love to keep playing that MMO but unfortunately my video card has not been patched/fixed to work with FFXI =(

If solo play in ffxi got equal xp to party exp the NO ONE would group. This has been a played out topic in the forurms on MMORPG for a long time. Gamers take the least path of resistance wheather its fun or not. This means that if you got the same EXP solo then people wouldnt waste time looking for group. The players that did Look to party would be extremly few. that would essentially turn FFXI to a solo gind fest to cap. What made it fun was the groups.  There was an option to level solo and it was called "beastmaster".

Please bring back challenges developers :( ... I do not want to follow a yellow brick road on my map from point A to point B by myself kill the monsters and repeat!! I want to search I want things hidden. I want to attempt a quest with 5 other people and die many times till we get it right.

 Ya know this is a good point.   I wish devs would quit making games easier and easier.  The stupid ass addons killed wow.  Questhelper made things retarded easier than they already were but shit man I dunno.  Things are easy no days and they should follow EQ1's route and make a huge open world with "hidden" quests.  I dont want to know there are 32 quests here...I want to discover that there are 32 queasts here and there is one special one just for me that gives me something fairly cool.  I want to be able to GRIND mobs and get the same amount of xp as if I was questing my ass off.  I get what you are saying although I dont agree with some points but I believe you are quite right in a lot of points you make.

I dont have nothing to say here except that I was a huge fan of the FFXI leveling system, Id love to see something like that again. I am getting to the point where Questing MMO's makes me want to punch my moniter while shouting "I am not a GD errand boy go deiliver your own Fing letter or use the MFing mail sytem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Ok maybe I dont rteact like that but I do hate the cheezy quest driven MMO's

Does anyone feel the same way as me??????

 

 

Me, I hate it when people reply to a post within the post using different colored script, usually we end up with a mess like above with  several different colored scripts replying to the op and each other and muddying the waters of what was once a clear post.  It is just my opinion but it seems to stem from a certain arrogance from the repliers that their answers belong within the op's post rather than at the bottom as a reply.  Just my opinion.
 

Everyones imput is pretty good here. My initial rant was me in a pretty pissed of state due to reading how Star trek online was going to be.... Some of the more casual players here complaining though there are and will always be casual games. I think a lot of us hardcore players would love to see just 1 or 2 hardcore games and I think there are plenty of us for a game company to make money off of heck I'd pay 20$ a month if it helped.

Originally posted by Promeus

Everyones imput is pretty good here. My initial rant was me in a pretty pissed of state due to reading how Star trek online was going to be.... Some of the more casual players here complaining though there are and will always be casual games. I think a lot of us hardcore players would love to see just 1 or 2 hardcore games and I think there are plenty of us for a game company to make money off of heck I'd pay 20$ a month if it helped.

This in fact does come off as a really good idea that in time I'm hopeful may  happen where companies release games that their in fact is a market for with maybe a higher sub rate since it is probably going to be less populated only problem now though is so many companies seem to live and die from perception it is going to be difficult convincing them that admitting your game is not the highest populated game is not a death blow.

Originally posted by elderotter

Me, I hate it when people reply to a post within the post using different colored script, usually we end up with a mess like above with  several different colored scripts replying to the op and each other and muddying the waters of what was once a clear post.  It is just my opinion but it seems to stem from a certain arrogance from the repliers that their answers belong within the op's post rather than at the bottom as a reply.  Just my opinion.
 

Well to bad if you like it or not. Lot of people use it. Sometimes its the best way to respond to multiple points. And you need to formulate a different opinion because it has nothing to do with my arrogance thinking that my post belonged in the OP. Just an easy way to read one guys point change font color and reply to that point. Sometimes its even good to have it all there so people do not get confused, especially when your replying to a post thats replying to the OP.

Originally posted by Kayless

Originally posted by Promeus

I HATE GAME DEVELOPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone feel the same way as me??????

 

Hmm, wasn't sure whether or not to reply to this quality post but hey ho... no i don't agree at all. Life's hard enough, these are games, nice diversions from the hardship of the mortal coil, nothing more.

Everything you listed you could try to achieve in RL, which of course is always on hardcore mode, if you took the time to get some perspective and go outside...

/signed

to reply directly to the Op...

FFXI isn't hard. Its no harder than WoW, LOTRO, or any other MMO currently on the market. The UI is "different", and the way you play the game is more "time consuming" but there is nothing anymore difficult about it, than any other mmo on the market. Finding other to people to group with is not a "challenge" like trying to juggle would be. Juggling 7 bottles of milk is difficult. Sitting at a pc for 8 hrs waiting for other people to play with.. is certainly not. Standing in a zone waiting 4 hrs only for some other group of people to show up 5 minutes before a boss spawns and takes it.. is not difficult.. its just another big time waster.

I honestly don't know an MMO, this is "hard". Some of the bosses maybe harder than others.. but the game itself.. its all the same structure.

If you want a game with a diffculty level.. play offline.

Or do what was already suggested and MAKE IT HARD.

play with no armor, play with no weapon, don't use spells, don't heal, don't spec talent points.

Games are supposed to be a balance between challenge and fun.. I think they've done pretty well on that front myself.

Originally posted by raystantz

to reply directly to the Op...

 

FFXI isn't hard. Its no harder than WoW, LOTRO, or any other MMO currently on the market. The UI is "different", and the way you play the game is more "time consuming" but there is nothing anymore difficult about it, than any other mmo on the market. Finding other to people to group with is not a "challenge" like trying to juggle would be. Juggling 7 bottles of milk is difficult. Sitting at a pc for 8 hrs waiting for other people to play with.. is certainly not. Standing in a zone waiting 4 hrs only for some other group of people to show up 5 minutes before a boss spawns and takes it.. is not difficult.. its just another big time waster.

I honestly don't know an MMO, this is "hard". Some of the bosses maybe harder than others.. but the game itself.. its all the same structure.

 If you want a game with a diffculty level.. play offline.

 

Or do what was already suggested and MAKE IT HARD.

play with no armor, play with no weapon, don't use spells, don't heal, don't spec talent points.

Games are supposed to be a balance between challenge and fun.. I think they've done pretty well on that front myself.

 

 

I love this type of post from people hating on FFXI. If you sat at your PC for 8 hours waiting for a group that is your problem. It took 20 min tops to step up and be a LEADER and make a party (back in the hay day). But hey some people just like to ride coat tails and sit and wait 8 hours for a party. As for your boss camping dill, Yes it did blow when a group showed up just in time to claim it. and the normal boss wasnt all that tough, But if the king version poped the group had a fight on their hands. I cannot count how many times Nidhoog, aspid and King behemoth wiped an alliance because the group that claimed it was not prepared to kill it. Or even better a zone wipe. Spike Flail anyone? Do I even need to mention COP BCNM missions? One word "airship" It took a mass effort and dedication to get Sea access. (not sure if they dumbed it down now) and the bosses there are no push over Jailer of Love or the king of all bosses in any MMO Absolute Virtue (far as I know its not been killed W/O the wall exploit). Oh ya just a starigh push over. (/sarcasim Off). FFXI had very difficult bosses to beat and it also had easier bosses to beat, for the less devoted.  But the best gear came from the top dogs, and the casuals cried because there was no way they would ever see it on their toon.

Edit: Sky Gods was for the more casual player. Great gear came from their. HNMs were for the hardcore, casual need not even mess with them. And elite gear came from them. More MMO's need to incorperate this type of system, but again the casuals will cry because they dont want to put the effort into getting the best of the best. They want it spoon feed to them. You guys want to be "uber" with little effort. Pretty pathetic. Thats not even the American spirit. Wheres the American Dream? Work hard make something of yourself.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by raystantz

to reply directly to the Op...

 

FFXI isn't hard. Its no harder than WoW, LOTRO, or any other MMO currently on the market. The UI is "different", and the way you play the game is more "time consuming" but there is nothing anymore difficult about it, than any other mmo on the market. Finding other to people to group with is not a "challenge" like trying to juggle would be. Juggling 7 bottles of milk is difficult. Sitting at a pc for 8 hrs waiting for other people to play with.. is certainly not. Standing in a zone waiting 4 hrs only for some other group of people to show up 5 minutes before a boss spawns and takes it.. is not difficult.. its just another big time waster.

I honestly don't know an MMO, this is "hard". Some of the bosses maybe harder than others.. but the game itself.. its all the same structure.

 If you want a game with a diffculty level.. play offline.

 

Or do what was already suggested and MAKE IT HARD.

play with no armor, play with no weapon, don't use spells, don't heal, don't spec talent points.

Games are supposed to be a balance between challenge and fun.. I think they've done pretty well on that front myself.

 

 

 

I love this type of post from people hating on FFXI. If you sat at your PC for 8 hours waiting for a group that is your problem. It took 20 min tops to step up and be a LEADER and make a party (back in the hay day). But hey some people just like to ride coat tails and sit and wait 8 hours for a party. As for your boss camping dill, Yes it did blow when a group showed up just in time to claim it. and the normal boss wasnt all that tough, But if the king version poped the group had a fight on their hands. I cannot count how many times Nidhoog, aspid and King behemoth wiped an alliance because the group that claimed it was not prepared to kill it. Or even better a zone wipe. Spike Flail anyone? Do I even need to mention COP BCNM missions? One word "airship" It took a mass effort and dedication to get Sea access. (not sure if they dumbed it down now) and the bosses there are no push over Jailer of Love or the king of all bosses in any MMO Absolute Virtue (far as I know its not been killed W/O the wall exploit). Oh ya just a starigh push over. (/sarcasim Off). FFXI had very difficult bosses to beat and it also had easier bosses to beat, for the less devoted.  But the best gear came from the top dogs, and the casuals cried because there was no way they would ever see it on their toon.

You totally read my post....

There is nothing hard about anything you mentioned.. Time consuming, yeah.. it will all take literally ages to complete all of RoZ, all of CoP, all of the ToaU missions, and all of end game. Is it hard? No.. not at all. You use the same ideas, and brain power as you use in every other mmo on the market. There are strategies that work, and some that don't. I'm not bashing on FFXI. I played it for nearly 4 years and loved it, before I got married and realized that other things were more important. But, anyone who wants to sit here and tell me that its "hard" can bite me. The Op is talking "difficulty" level in mobs/bosses/quests. He's not asking for a game where everything is extremely time consuming. Yes, there are some bosses in FFXI that require a well oiled group and some internet strategy guides in order to kill.. but I can''t name one game where you don't need that. WoW included. When people stop using vent, and stop using addons, and stop looking up quests/boss guides on the interwebz.. then they can tell me something is "hard".

Everything is "easy" if your prepared. In order to be prepared in games like FFXI requires no skill.. only TIME INVESTMENT. There is nothing difficult about investing TIME. You either have the time to invest.. or you don't. But, I get tired of people saying.. ohhh.. your game is "easy" mine izz the hardzzz. They are all easy. You want hard, you need to go back to the NES era when games were hard. Every MMO has their share of difficult stuff. But, most developers are starting to see that the "hardcore, I like to sit at my pc for 12 hrs every day" group of people are in the minority. I am glad they are starting to at least give both groups content and not just cater to those who have no lives. I don't disrespect them at all, I wish I had all the time in the world to do nothing. But, I don't and therefore I am glad developers are making stuff for the majority first. It gives us all more people to play with end the end. Do you realize how many people never ever make past level 10 in FFXI? 

You haven't accomplished anything by making 75, any more than I have with 8 80s in WoW or whatever game I choose to play. My accomplishments lie in the fun I have playing with others, and making new friends along the way. I get to be someone else for a few hrs a day. I've been there, done that in FFXI and many other mmos in the past 10 years. Times have changed, and I am glad. Playing games like FFXI to me is like riding a bicycle when there is a jet plane sitting in the front yard. They are both gonna get you to the same place, one is just gonna take you a heck of a lot longer. If you want to travel that way.. its your peroggative but it isn't any better than going the fast route, which is arguably the smarter route to take.

Originally posted by raystantz

 

You totally read my post....

 

There is nothing hard about anything you mentioned.. Time consuming, yeah.. it will all take literally ages to complete all of RoZ, all of CoP, all of the ToaU missions, and all of end game. Is it hard? No.. not at all. You use the same ideas, and brain power as you use in every other mmo on the market. There are strategies that work, and some that don't. I'm not bashing on FFXI. I played it for nearly 4 years and loved it, before I got married and realized that other things were more important. But, anyone who wants to sit here and tell me that its "hard" can bite me. The Op is talking "difficulty" level in mobs/bosses/quests. He's not asking for a game where everything is extremely time consuming. Yes, there are some bosses in FFXI that require a well oiled group and some internet strategy guides in order to kill.. but I can''t name one game where you don't need that. WoW included. When people stop using vent, and stop using addons, and stop looking up quests/boss guides on the interwebz.. then they can tell me something is "hard".

Everything is "easy" if your prepared. In order to be prepared in games like FFXI requires no skill.. only TIME INVESTMENT. There is nothing difficult about investing TIME. You either have the time to invest.. or you don't. But, I get tired of people saying.. ohhh.. your game is "easy" mine izz the hardzzz. They are all easy. You want hard, you need to go back to the NES era when games were hard. Every MMO has their share of difficult stuff. But, most developers are starting to see that the "hardcore, I like to sit at my pc for 12 hrs every day" group of people are in the minority. I am glad they are starting to at least give both groups content and not just cater to those who have no lives. I don't disrespect them at all, I wish I had all the time in the world to do nothing. But, I don't and therefore I am glad developers are making stuff for the majority first. It gives us all more people to play with end the end. Do you realize how many people never ever make past level 10 in FFXI? 

You haven't accomplished anything by making 75, any more than I have with 8 80s in WoW or whatever game I choose to play. My accomplishments lie in the fun I have playing with others, and making new friends along the way. I get to be someone else for a few hrs a day. I've been there, done that in FFXI and many other mmos in the past 10 years. Times have changed, and I am glad. Playing games like FFXI to me is like riding a bicycle when there is a jet plane sitting in the front yard. They are both gonna get you to the same place, one is just gonna take you a heck of a lot longer. If you want to travel that way.. its your peroggative but it isn't any better than going the fast route, which is arguably the smarter route to take.

Omega an Ultima was a hard fight pal, I knew countless people stuck on that, I got lucky and won on 3rd attempt. There were people 0-20+, everything had to be done just right. Ya there were strats for it but getting it done was another thing. At the time I played if you had sea access you were a deserving playing. like I said IDK if its dumbed down now. Thats just one CoP example

You say you needed a well oiled group for some bosses. That my friend = a relitively difficult boss. The average LS couldnt just waltz in and kill anything in game. In all actuality getting the boss was actually the hardest. I know you cant argue that. Sit in the zone all you want 24/7, if you cant claim it your not going to have a chance at killing it. So the time investment is a mute point here.  Again the King bosses were no push over of a fight. Unlike instanced games where you just can get a group together anytime you feel and go run it. wipe get up and try again.

Ok another lame argument you put up here and its not just you I see this excusse used all to often. You say you use to have the time to play hardcore, but dont now. Thats all fine and dandy and I understand that, because I am in the same boat now with this reguard. I also put in about 4 years to FFXI averging about 6-10 hours a day. Where you agrument is flawed is that while we may have grown up and have other pressing matters that we must attend to in order to live life. There is a generation of kids below us that have the time we once had. Every former hardcore player talks like they were the end of the era, hate to break it to you pal but theres countless others that took our spot. 

Now where I differ from you is I dont have the 6-10 hours a day anymore to play but I still want another game to capture me.I still want a game where everything is not spoon fed to me. I dont care if something takes me 4-5 months to get that the new hardcore group gets within the first month. I want that extreme goal.  I want to work for something that not everyone will be able obtain if I cant due to my life now, well so be it, that goal is not going anywhere ill still strive for it. I damn sure dont want it dumbed down to where I can get it along with every other joe blow.

Going by that logic, there's nothing hard about anything, just time consuming. Juggling 7 milk bottles? thats not hard, it just takes time to learn to do. Brain surgery? just takes 10 years to get qualified. Finding a unifying theory for everything? not hard, but it might take a while to think of it.

If the OP and others have a sense of hardcore in their games, good on them. If they want to play games that are 'hard' as they see it good on them. Patronising them by telling them:

The only games that should ever be made are ones I like and if they arent hard enough then you should gimp yourself

is... well, how should they see that?

Its all relative.

FFXI wasn't hard to me. I did everything that there was to do, when it was HARD to do it. Yes it was "hard" to get to the point of doing it.. but, I didn't have to take classes, and i didn't need a manual to figure it out. Then again, I've played enough FF games to know how they work by now.

Hard is whatever is challenging to "you". I play guitar, and I think its easy to do.. but alot of people are like "wow, that looks hard" and to them.. it just might be.. but I've been doing it for 9 years now.. so its kind of easy at this point.

I like games that are "convenient".. they can still be difficult and be convenient.

I don't need to lose exp, or delevel or dewhatever to have a challenging game experience. Challenging doesn't = punishment. There should be consequences yes.. but they shouldn't completely hinder a normal person from enjoying the game. I like instances, but I also like extremely tough bosses. Put those together, and everyone has a chance at the same things.. but only those who do the "Research" to beat the bosses will prevail.

I think alot of people are looking for the game that will let them stand out from the crowd by spending countless hrs trying to make themselves the best of the best. They don't like the idea of someone coming in and spending half the time, to get the same things. I agree with this. But, there is a happy medium..

Originally posted by Promeus

I HATE GAME DEVELOPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.....

I WANT DEATH PENALTYS IN MMOS Harsh death penaltys. Drop equiptment when you die lots of it lose a level lose gold lose everything!!! PERMADEATH Like diablo 2!!!!

......

Thousands of MUDs like that, stop being such a baby and go play one.

And it's not the developers fault that the first major care bare game (WoW) because so popular. Blame the millions of people playing it.

It's the people playing WoW, not the developers that will set the tone for the next 10 – 20 years.  Because money talks, developers need money, investors need confidence.  

Developers can't just ask the question, "what makes a great game", they need to ask, "what sells".  And so far the only answer is WoW. And that is the players fault, not the developers fault.
 

Originally posted by rounner

The flaw with the 'so delete your character' comments is that perma death can only work with modified game mechanics. Playing perma death in an existing mmo is a fail for the reasons described a few posts above mine. In my opinion,  a perma death game could only work in a significantly different style of game, with less emphasis on kill or be killed and more on other things, like exploration, puzzle solving, crafting etc. To avoid lag death, or dying because you crashed during a fight, you'd need a different server response from heart beat time outs. To avoid zerg ganking you'd need different PvP rules, and perhaps a tiered death system or something more creative. In short, it would take something new to work.

I am not a propnent by the way and don't know how to solve all the problems with it, I'm just saying making arguments like 'well delete your char if you die then' is not very constructive.

You fail to see the irony?  Some of the wise guys here keeps saying the games are too easy.  They need challenge.  I am pushing the argument to the extremes for them.  If they want challenge, they can have the ultimate challenge, including the challenge of randomness.  If you know you will have to delete your character when it dies, and it will die in dangerous zones with internet issues, do not go out.  Play in zones where you cannot die even if you go afk for hours.  You see the irony?

The point is balance, balance risk with fun.  Too much risk, people will avoid fun.  To easy, people will exhaust the sources of fun.  However, the balance varies for different persons, and hence the different games in the market.

Actually I can name two MMORPGs that are successful and have (well, HAD for the majority of thier lives) permadeath: Dragonrealms and Gemstone IV. Nearly 10 years running, both of them. Sure they're text games, but they still count. They basically use a system where you keep a stock of extra lives (the gods basically owe you X favors), and if you forget to stock up, or get killed too many times in a row, you die.

It gave death a very real, very avoidable (you could count on one hand the people who accidentally permadied in a year), threat.

As far as difficulty goes, I'm an old gamer. Not like a C64 gamer, but I had an NES on launch date. That was enough to teach me one valueable lesson: GAMES ARE NOT MEANT TO BE BEATEN (easily). There have been a slew of 'hard' console games coming out lately. Mega Man 9, Etrian Odyssey, Dark Spire, and Prinny come to mind.  I have yet to see this with MMORPGs.

MMOs tend to be easy and boring, mostly due to the fact that they all use the same basic mechanics, and the only ways to really add difficulty are to jack up the mobs' stats, or go the DDO route making long interesting and difficult dungeons that pose unique challenges to different builds. The latter requires effort, which isn't something many MMO developers are interested in.

Originally posted by Promeus

All games are crap mash A button easy win games! How do people get a sense of accomplishment from beating a game that 99% of the people who buy the game will beat!!! I want hard games! I dont want carebear games

I WANT DEATH PENALTYS IN MMOS Harsh death penaltys. Drop equiptment when you die lots of it lose a level lose gold lose everything!!! PERMADEATH Like diablo 2!!!!

The hardes mmo right now is probally final fantasy but I just got tired why cant other developers make games like it? Make games hard again please!!! I hate that our society if filled with a bunch of people who cry because a game is to hard. It should be hard then when you finally beat it you have actually accomplished something to brag about. When you reach the highest lvl its something not many people can or have done!

Please bring back challenges developers :( ... I do not want to follow a yellow brick road on my map from point A to point B by myself kill the monsters and repeat!! I want to search I want things hidden. I want to attempt a quest with 5 other people and die many times till we get it right.

Games are designed to be fun and enjoyable for people to relax and escape from the real world.  Developers cater to what people want and are willing to pay.  Fact is, your in the minority with wanting a game that is not fun or a good escape from reality.

Also, video games are nothing to brag to others about.  What you "accomplish" in the game does not transalte into real life nor does it have any effect or bearing in the real world.  I would suggest you reevaluate your values if video games are you only sense of accomplishment.

Originally posted by mk11232

Originally posted by Promeus

All games are crap mash A button easy win games! How do people get a sense of accomplishment from beating a game that 99% of the people who buy the game will beat!!! I want hard games! I dont want carebear games

I WANT DEATH PENALTYS IN MMOS Harsh death penaltys. Drop equiptment when you die lots of it lose a level lose gold lose everything!!! PERMADEATH Like diablo 2!!!!

The hardes mmo right now is probally final fantasy but I just got tired why cant other developers make games like it? Make games hard again please!!! I hate that our society if filled with a bunch of people who cry because a game is to hard. It should be hard then when you finally beat it you have actually accomplished something to brag about. When you reach the highest lvl its something not many people can or have done!

Please bring back challenges developers :( ... I do not want to follow a yellow brick road on my map from point A to point B by myself kill the monsters and repeat!! I want to search I want things hidden. I want to attempt a quest with 5 other people and die many times till we get it right.

Games are designed to be fun and enjoyable for people to relax and escape from the real world.  Developers cater to what people want and are willing to pay.  Fact is, your in the minority with wanting a game that is not fun or a good escape from reality.

Also, video games are nothing to brag to others about.  What you "accomplish" in the game does not transalte into real life nor does it have any effect or bearing in the real world.  I would suggest you reevaluate your values if video games are you only sense of accomplishment.

Bingo.

Games are for off hours.  When all achievement and efforts are done, and I need to wind down.

I do not need to be the company president, I only want to be an elf wandering the woods with a bow, and doing something stupid, for a change of pace.  Do I need to meet 25 deadlines in the next 6 hours in the game?  No.  Do I need to do anything special?  No.  Nothing is needed, just whatever things that comes to mind as fun.  The moment the fun part diminishes to a certain point, the game is logged.  AND forgotten for now.

I do not talk to people about my game, maybe exception are the gamers I meet online.  Its just an hour or so of distraction, during which I need not be 100% attentive.  I can babysit, chat over phone, or even go afk grilling for the kids in the backyard, when I am online.  Why not?  If the character died when I am afk, he died not me.  Just walk back to the corpse when I am in the mood to continue.

Heck, I left a game with my character still dead months ago, and never log back in, even tho its a lifetime membership account.

Originally posted by Draq

Actually I can name two MMORPGs that are successful and have (well, HAD for the majority of thier lives) permadeath: Dragonrealms and Gemstone IV. Nearly 10 years running, both of them. Sure they're text games, but they still count. They basically use a system where you keep a stock of extra lives (the gods basically owe you X favors), and if you forget to stock up, or get killed too many times in a row, you die.

It gave death a very real, very avoidable (you could count on one hand the people who accidentally permadied in a year), threat.

As far as difficulty goes, I'm an old gamer. Not like a C64 gamer, but I had an NES on launch date. That was enough to teach me one valueable lesson: GAMES ARE NOT MEANT TO BE BEATEN (easily). There have been a slew of 'hard' console games coming out lately. Mega Man 9, Etrian Odyssey, Dark Spire, and Prinny come to mind.  I have yet to see this with MMORPGs.

MMOs tend to be easy and boring, mostly due to the fact that they all use the same basic mechanics, and the only ways to really add difficulty are to jack up the mobs' stats, or go the DDO route making long interesting and difficult dungeons that pose unique challenges to different builds. The latter requires effort, which isn't something many MMO developers are interested in.

There are many dimensions for difficulties in a game, I can list a few for sharing.

I remember those days I play games from floppies.  There are games like myst, which is not "hard" but need to tackle brain teasing puzzles.  The first such game is spider man from Apple II days.  When I was a kid.  It took me an hour to figure out that the stone guy inside the elevator cannot be beaten in combat.  Being a stone, it only look forward, so to beat him you climb the ceiling on top of him.

Once beaten, the game is not replayable.

There is another dimension of difficulties, in the form of voluntary grinding.  Those were the japanese/taiwanese chess like rpgs, in which you characters level up as they kill, or heal.  As they level up they becomes god like.  If you want to play it the hard way, try to get pass each chapter with minimum kills.  So you start next chapter lower in character level, and you will soon find it hard to beat.  For ease of play, many of us fight the first few chapters slowly, killing all mobs, or regenerating as many mobs as possible (leave 1 mob alive, take hits and keep healing, as healing levels you up as well).

There is another dimension, grouping.  Some games are designed for groups.  EQ1 at the start, and FF are prime examples.  You can only solo so far, unless you want to spend you entire gamelife killing mobs lower than you.

Perma death is just one form of "hard".  Fact is, if the game is highly repeatable, I do not see problems in perma death.  If I die I start over again, just like tetris.  I die, game restarts.  I seldom feel attached to the characters in the game, they are just ways to keep my amused.  If the alt dies, bye bye.  So long as I am entertained during the process.