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4/16/09 5:07:37 PM#41
Originally posted by Josher Which side are you arguing for? Nearly everything you mentioned either hasn't changed, or has changed for the worst, and made today's MMO's the simplistic whack-a-mole crap that they are today. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 5:40:33 PM#42
Originally posted by Abrahmm Which side are you arguing for? Nearly everything you mentioned either hasn't changed, or has changed for the worst, and made today's MMO's the simplistic whack-a-mole crap that they are today. Well, actually he lists how MMO's have evolved, which if that's his point he's correct. You do clearly point out what I agree with to be where they've gone wrong in a lot of cases. People are just confused by the whole concept of something evolving because they generally correlate evolving away from their ideals into not evolving at all. That's simply not true.
Anyway, quoted because I totally agree with you, even if I never played EQ, UO, or SWG. It might've been in this post somewhere (or maybe mortal online forums), but I read something recently and someone said that the idea of no mini-map or map is shocking, then someone argued that they are sick of controlling their characters by staring at the minimaps. I happen to agree with the latter. All too often I find myself not even remembering where I just came from without checking the map because I was so busy watching my little 2D arrow in the upper-right corner of my screen go to the big shiny dot I was heading to, rather than even take the time to notice the game world around me. And I swear, the idea of a game that plays itself while you simply sit back and watch doesn't surprise me at all. Mildly interactive TV - gaming's evolutionary future, I swear. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
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4/16/09 5:43:54 PM#43
Originally posted by Shiymmas Well, actually he lists how MMO's have evolved, which if that's his point he's correct. You do clearly point out what I agree with to be where they've gone wrong in a lot of cases. People are just confused by the whole concept of something evolving because they generally correlate evolving away from their ideals into not evolving at all. That's simply not true.
Anyway, quoted because I totally agree with you, even if I never played EQ, UO, or SWG. It might've been in this post somewhere (or maybe mortal online forums), but I read something recently and someone said that the idea of no mini-map or map is shocking, then someone argued that they are sick of controlling their characters by staring at the minimaps. I happen to agree with the latter. All too often I find myself not even remembering where I just came from without checking the map because I was so busy watching my little 2D arrow in the upper-right corner of my screen go to the big shiny dot I was heading to, rather than even take the time to notice the game world around me. And I swear, the idea of a game that plays itself while you simply sit back and watch doesn't surprise me at all. Mildly interactive TV - gaming's evolutionary future, I swear. You are right, I think the word "evolved" can be interpreted a few different ways. I think of it as "Advancing", but I haven't seen much of an advancement in MMOs. On the other hand, it could mean "increasing it's ability to survive", in which case MMOs have evolved, as the dumbed down game play caters to many more people than the past. I think Evolve is a bad word choice. Maybe advancement would be better. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 5:44:05 PM#44
I agree, MMOs have NOT evolved.....and that is part of what is causing this low period in MMO Gaming.... MMOs should have evolved in the last 5 years, but haven't. Sure some of the features have changed, game engines in some, but what MMOs could have been...that vision has been lost. |
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4/16/09 5:49:01 PM#45
Originally posted by Gardavil
I agree, the vision has been lost. So many of these features that the newer gamers complain about, or that have been removed, had a purpose. Death penalties, downtime, they weren't just put in to piss off the players and make things take longer, they were put in to encourage socialization, introduce risk to balance the rewards, or to simply think twice before doing something stupid. Instead, today, we get the ultra casuals that bitch and moan about anything deemed "hard", pushing this genre further and further from all it could have been, all of it's possibilities. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 5:56:14 PM#46
Mmorpg these days (not at all,some)suck, its simple ,its turned out on a big company who buy small company to make profits ,and f... their games.I still remember in the time when games was fun....now today it just meh.
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4/16/09 5:57:06 PM#47
I think it boils down to that gaming companies no longer make these games as the engine to fuel the game they themselves want to play. The MMO industry has become big business - the potential to make a fortune, and most companies out there are trying to do just that by catering to the widest possible audience they can in attempt to make their profit margin that much higher. The problem then becomes that these games are created without much consideration to what may be fun. They're made with intent to manipulate people psychologically to chase that godforsaken carrot on a stick to keep those monthly fees coming in.
I made a long reply earlier in this thread about FPS games, and what it made me realize to some degree is that the first of games were the best for good reason. Half-Life was an amazing game, to be certain. However, a certain group of players decided to get together and create a mod for the game to their liking - Counter-strike. The reason that game was so wildly successful is that it was made by players, for players, for FREE. That those guys went on to commercial success was no miracle, because they were in touch with what players wanted, because they were players themselves.
What gaming companies have lost anymore is that connection. Anymore, it's some douche-bag game director trying to replicate the past successes of other games by replicating their successful features, all the while catering to the wider demographic in an attempt to boost the bottom line. They don't make games for the fun of it. In fact, I'd bet they do studies into the psychology of what ropes a player in and doesn't let them go, and exploit that to then Nth degree. Look at WoW. I'd guarantee they've studied that game inside and out to truly learn and exploit their players by now.
End of the day, I want games made by players, not some business that's only concerned about the bottom line. Those are the games that truly make it, because they're fun to play, but that's what's been lost, really. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
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4/16/09 5:57:49 PM#48
The answer is absolutely YES. I read most of the posts, but not all admittedly. Starting with making my own vids on a TI 99/4A and PONG....emphatically video games have changed YES. Go go bio-processors and holographix. What HASNT changed? There are still "good games" and "bad games"..
Add: Ever played "Pitstop" for the Apple II? mmmhmmmm |
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4/16/09 6:12:32 PM#49
Speaking about MMOs I wouldn't say "evolved". That implies they have gotten better (which is subjective). As I see it they have: 1) Less detail oriented 2) More instanced 3) Smaller worlds 4) Become more "winnable" games than "lived in" worlds 5) Less polished on release (I'm not saying that the first gen was completly polished) 6) Based on a business philosphy based on immediate box sales as opposed to long term retention 7) Focused more on uber graphics than uber game systems 8) Developed more by corporate executives and shareholders than the old nerds and geeks who decided to take table-top pencil and paper gaming onto computers and online 9) Seen a severe loss of interaction and creativity on the part of both the dev teams and live teams 10) Instituted lackluster changes or "wtf" changes for the sake of change ("see, we did something to look like we're doing something") Obviously those are my opinions yet I don't feel that many of them are far off the mark. Especially if one has been playing MMOs since day 1 of Ultima Online. "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..." |
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4/16/09 6:38:01 PM#50
Your just upset because your wrong about eq, I think the argument stands just fine.
EQ orginally had no in-game maps Oh no, you had to explore and find things on your own? Exploration is far more satisfying, but there where add ons to get maps but I believe you had to explore first, wow has add ons that are just add no exploration now with all the locs for everything. no mini-map Same as above You didn't need one it was easy to do /loc to find out if you where north east south or west or you can make a macro and it was more fun that way, you can also navigate by following the edge of the area and know where you are going or just by memory of the trails, oh and wait there where signs gasp! just a few skills to use No there where few skills with some of the melee classes but that changed later on, the spells would always change graphics and the name even though they where essentially the same thing for example your first aoe was shards of fire your second was bursts that exploded, wow only has the numbers change that is quite boring sorry, oh and on aoes you can tell exactly how far they spread very graphicly obvious. As compared to WoW, which each class has, what, 4-6 skills that they actually use? Right. very simplistic 1 dimentional classes The initial problem you are overlooking is that there are classes, not that they are simplistic. No in eq classes where very complex espically casters and it took hard work to get there variety of spells actually bards where pretty complex to so where other hybrids, I am not sure if your still talking about eq1 here but classes in eq made huge differences in groups and made you feel like you where seriously contributing to your groups im very serious it really made you feel that way wow is not even 2 percent of that feeling. VERY little graphic variety Not quite sure what you mean here. SWG had a ton of graphical variety in all of the different items, armor, and weapons a character could wear, not to mention decorate with. no tool tips What? no soloing options Soloing is always an option, just not optimal. Again another downfall of current MMOs no instances Awesome! very simplistic animation Again, SWG had better animations than any other game I've played, including WoW. harsh death penalties Awesome! long wait times for everything Oh no, socialization! I'm melting! lots of downtime See above very few quests I'd rather have very few boring, crappy quests, than a whole bunch of boring, crappy quests. Is WOW anything like that now? Nope. Unfortunately not. MMOs have come a long way. A long way down. |
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4/16/09 7:34:26 PM#51
nothing happens in leaps nd bounds, it's leaps and baby steps, currently all the areas that've been mentioned have been in the baby steps phase for a while now but something will come a long as the market becomes saturated and you need to be innovative to sell a product. there has been other areas that have been revolutionised recently though an example is the WII very innovative. |
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4/16/09 7:43:13 PM#52
Originally posted by Angelbound When I was responding to him, I wasn't specifically talking about EQ, but just the older game's features in general. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 7:44:20 PM#53
Originally posted by Zorndorf On the contrary, the best MMO I ever played was made over 5 years ago and is no longer playable, so I wouldn't say games are the best today. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 7:55:21 PM#54
Gaming do evolve but it happens in steps with many years between them FPS games have evolved a lot from Quake and Doom. Quake 2 and half-life changed them a lot. MMOs have also evolved, first we had UO and Meridian, then came EQ and evolved them a lot. In resent years we seen more of a polishing than actually evolution but there will be a game that will change the genre again, maybe it will be "world of darkness online" since the mix och experienced devs and people who worked many years on pen and papers RPGs (they have evolved a lot since the 70s) will be very intresting. Maybe it will be another company but the genre will evolve again sooner or later. And I think we should look on the pen and paper games to see where the MMO need to change. All this doesn't mean that the MMOs today suck, just that they are still close to EQ in many ways. |
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4/16/09 7:56:11 PM#55
Originally posted by Zorndorf
Good G*d, can I nominate this for post of the year. This is so freaking true. Most of the people who whine like the peeps in this thread have absolutely zero perspective. Their arguments don't even merit a response, but if you're going to respond, this is a great one. Great post bro, I agree 10,000%! |
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4/16/09 8:08:51 PM#56
Originally posted by Abrahmm On the contrary, the best MMO I ever played was made over 5 years ago and is no longer playable, so I wouldn't say games are the best today.
You miss the entire point of his post. Clearly.
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4/16/09 8:09:12 PM#57
The way I see it mmorpg games have evolved but then something happend and that evolution became about new gimics rather than evolving quality. Then the rules of laying out an mmorpg set in and the newer gimics began to feel like newish things that were just plugged into the same frame. We now look at the past two years of new releases and I dont see any new quality worth mentioning. Some of them sure do look like they spent more money on hype than development. Promise them anything but give them only what you have to seems to have wiggled its way in as a rule of thumb. The obvious lesson here is that game company heads think we are stupid. I'm still looking for a game with quality graphics and animation, decent combat system that isnt more frustrating than fun and a large immersive world that feels like it belongs and responds to the story line rather than a setting for a bunch of npcs pacing around like ducks in a shooting gallery. Maybe it will never happen, I dont know.
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4/16/09 8:13:02 PM#58
Some developers will try to think out of the box to actually deliver something innovative and fun to the genre, an "evolved" game. The majority will stick to a tried and true formula, it's less risky. |
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4/16/09 8:17:27 PM#59
Originally posted by andmiller
You miss the entire point of his post. Clearly.
Apparently I did. Or I let my knowledge of his posting habits taint my view of his post. Either way, I don't care really. I don't think the video games of today are the best they have ever been. I think we have seen a sharp downturn in nearly every genre over the last 3-4 years. Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic |
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4/16/09 8:39:05 PM#60
By the whacky definitions being thrown around here, cars haven't evolved at all either. They're just become easier to drive, more conveneient, more fun and therefor dumbed down for the masses. We gone from just a few gears, to a stick to an automatic. Apparently it takes a dumber person to drive an automative compared to a stick and is in fact, since its obviously easier to drive, NOT evolving. Its devoloving. Power Steering makes driving too easy. Turning the car should be more difficult. Alowing the car to help you steer clearly dumbs down that feature. We have GPS now, so people don't actually look at their surroundings anymore. We just follow the pretty voice or arrow on the screen. Unfolding a map required more brains, more time and more patience, so TomTom has dumbed down that aspect of driving a car as well. We have antilock breaks now, that allow you to just slam the breaks without pumping. That dumbs down driving also, since it was BETTER back in 1940 without them. We have a center rear break light as well, allowing better visibility for people behind you to see when you break. It was much BETTER when they didn't exist. Its dumbed down. We should only need the normal traditional break lamps. A center one is stupid and makes is all too easy to see what the driver in front of you is doing. We have adjustable seats. Cars shouldn't have adjustable seats. You should just sit exactly how the seat is designed. No adjustment. It was much better when we didn't have any choice. We have brighter headlights now. It dumbs down driving. We should have to squint. Actually, cars didn't have brights. We should remove brights. They dumb down driving at night. We should see as little as possible because its more challenging. Airbags!!!!!!!! We don't need airbags. They dumb down surviving an accident. People should have to prepare for that accident better, because alllwing the car to help you live is for the stupids. SEAT BELTS!!!!! We don't need no stinkin seatbelts either. They just get in the way as well. Remove them!! Hatchbacks!!! Hatchbacks make packing a trunk too easy. Convenience be damned. Foldable seats. They should NEVER fold. Folding them makes things more convenient and smart people know how to pack a car without them to create better space. Having more space is dumb. THATS what some of you people sound like. ANYTHING that makes a game more convenient some of you cast aside as dumbing the game down, when its actually making the game better. Much like all the advances in cars have made cars more drivable, more fun and less frustrating, all the advances in MMOs have also made them more playable, more fun, less frustrating. If given the option to drive an old ModelT or a new Camry, which do you think people will choose? Some of you are like old dead dinosaurs. NO ONE IS LISTENING TO YOU. Developers don't CARE about you. You can't support a AAA title on your own. You can barely fill a few servers. EVOLVE or just more on because the genre is no longer yours. You're old hat, a waste of developer's time. You don't know what fun is anymore and it really doesn't matter one bit., sad to say. You can of couse go play Darkfall=) That game is tailor made for many of the oldies. By the way, I am an oldie. But I'm not so blind as to ignore everything that really has improved. This is just another case rose colored goggles and the film has gotten so thick on some of them, people are litterally blind and can't see. You guys couldn't even keep Vangaurd going and it was no worse off than any MMO from the 90s. GO click on Youtube and watch some classic 90s EQ videos and tell anyone with a straight face that the genre hasn't evolved.
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