Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I would, however, have the observation that noone has tried to further develop UO/AC formulas and, reading the pulse of the MMO community as being stale on these WoW Generation MMOs (as in, they try them out, realize it's wholely similiar to WoW, but WoW does it better and they already have an existing time investment in WoW, so they go back to WoW), I'd make the call that if I was going to continue to invest in MMO companies at all, it would be in one with a goal to not mimic WoW. It would certainly be in a company that subscribes to the belief in grabbing subscribers for years, and developing aspects of the game to facilitate that.

I'm with you on that. I think that devs who have tried to recapture UO have focused too much on the combat aspect and not so much the community/interaction tools. There was an article I had read recently (but can't remember where) that pointed out how a lot of MMOs go for the big number up front rather than start with a small core and build up the playerbase from there. I think that will factor into the success of any future MMO that deviates from the fantasy diku design that dominates the market now.

Originally posted by LynxJSA
.....

And then here's the next fun tidbit: Everyone who wants an 'immersive game world' has a completely differnt idea of what that should be, so it's an audience that you almost cannot cater to even if you tried. The OP is a classic example. He wants a 'decent' virtual world, but

- it cannot be totally open in design like Second Life

- it cannot be space themed

- it must be 3D graphics

- it must have combat

Each person pining for a 'decent' virtual world has their own set of conditionals that are deal-breakers for them - it's a very small crowd that is extremely difficult to cater to.

Exactly this. He turns up his nose at Fallen Earth and Earthrise as well because "omg i think they will be FPS!" Rest assure he will turn up his nose at Mortal online as well

Next, he will surely turn up his nose at Wurm online and linkrealms "omg the graphics are not up to par!"

We are already a small crowd. People like they the OP are no help. just leave the site already no need for a huge will and testament

Originally posted by admriker4

eve - i just dont like space sims. Ive tried to love that game several times but just cant find any joy in it. Its a very good sandbox game but its just not my cup of tea.

Ultima - too old, 2d graphics no thanks. If I want an old-school thrill I'll play Fallout 2 or Birth of the Federation.

A Tale in the Desert - never tried it but I'm told it has no combat system at all so no thanks

 

I mention SWG because at launch it had nailed the virtual world simulation down. Now thats no longer the case, its crafting system while still somewhat decent is utterly pointless with a loot-based linear theme park NGE design crushing older code. Besides I won touch a game regardless when I have no guarantee that the development team wont violate the cardinal rule of mmo's and change the core game mechanics.

Basically I want a classic combat rpg system like wow with a player run economy like swg had with total interdependance within the community. This means items decay, raid gear isnt better than crafted gear (instead a player would loot crafting components that require a player-crafter to utilize). This also means you cant allow 7 toons per server or everyone will have crafting / gathering alts to avoid interdependance. And crafting should never ever be a secondary skill everyone auto gets. If you want to be a chef, you either cant be a warlock or a weak one (because you spend those limited skill points in chef rather than warlock)

 

I dont think you will bother but try Well Online its right along what you are asking for. Next time before posting yet another Will & Testment people feel free to ask your fellow sandboxers for suggestions.

 As was stated already, Ultima Online really is that game you have been searching for, lol. Pre-T2A atleast. I still enjoy logging on from time to time to redesign a castle here and there, or attempt to catch comeone in Felucia to get a quick PK on. And I do so love not having to see LVL 80 or whatever, the Skill system just seems so much more natural. Are you a LVL 10 at driving or do you feel bout 25% of your potential?

Classic EQ was a virtual world.

I gave up waiting for one, I'm playing WOW and screw the rest. At least WOW is good at being a Theme Park.

Future looks a bit better with Mortal Online, if they can pull that game.

Well, what OP wants is not going to happen.

People want games, not another life.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, what OP wants is not going to happen.

People want games, not another life.

Incorrect. Some people want games. Some people want detailed worlds that take in the many facets of sentient existence, not just combat.

Not going to argue which side has "more" as, just as it's true in all aspects of real life, more people prefer the easy, less resistant route to gratification. That said, there is a healthy number of people who enjoy investing large amounts of time in gaming and have the time on hand to do so. And they prefer MMO worlds where content/game systems are in place that meaningfully make use of a user that has plenty of time to play.

If fine if you don't have the time to do so, but don't generalize it to seem as if there aren't plenty of MMO gamers out there who do. Enough to provide a long term (not the 6 months and I'm out mentality of the majority of players) loyal subscription base if only a mid to high "caste" game company would make one. Field of Dreams had it right. "If you build it, they will come". And to clarify, I'm speaking of games like UO and AC in specific and not about any other game.

Originally posted by altairzq

Classic EQ was a virtual world.

 

I gave up waiting for one, I'm playing WOW and screw the rest. At least WOW is good at being a Theme Park.

 

Future looks a bit better with Mortal Online, if they can pull that game.

Ha ha ha ha ha ...

EQ is a huge grind-fest  & campfest ... 100x worse than WOW. I played EQ since its beta for a few yrs. There is really very little "world" aspect to it.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, what OP wants is not going to happen.

People want games, not another life.

 

Incorrect. Some people want games. Some people want detailed worlds that take in the many facets of sentient existence, not just combat.

Not going to argue which side has "more" as, just as it's true in all aspects of real life, more people prefer the easy, less resistant route to gratification. That said, there is a healthy number of people who enjoy investing large amounts of time in gaming and have the time on hand to do so. And they prefer MMO worlds where content/game systems are in place that meaningfully make use of a user that has plenty of time to play.

If fine if you don't have the time to do so, but don't generalize it to seem as if there aren't plenty of MMO gamers out there who do. Enough to provide a long term (not the 6 months and I'm out mentality of the majority of players) loyal subscription base if only a mid to high "caste" game company would make one. Field of Dreams had it right. "If you build it, they will come". And to clarify, I'm speaking of games like UO and AC in specific and not about any other game.

Sure. There is always the niche market but mainstream production is trending towards where most of the audience is. MMOs are VERY EXPENSIVE endeavors and I don't see developers gimping themselves by confining to a niche.

Sure, there will be some attempt like DF but for most major production, casual is the way to go (just look at how JGE is heading).

May I suggest Two Worlds.  It's cheap to get now, and online play is free.  I've been playing that online for a few days, and most of the gamers there were willing to party it up, and high levels give you free stuff if you announce your a noob.  Maybe that could tide you over till you find what you're really looking for.

Originally posted by Josher

If people who loved virtual worlds spent as much effort bettering themsleves in the REAL one, their need for the virtual wouldn't be as great.  After painting a REAL house, landscaping, decorating, fixing things that are broken, it really puts it all in perspective.  Doing all of that to a virtual home, seems so completely pointless and a big waste of time.  Same with spending amazing amounts of time acruing virtual wealth.  Imagine how much actual usable wealth could be made in the time you spent gathering useless virtual gold?  Same with virtual friends, virtual corporations, virtual politics, and building virtual clothes.  When you've got the real thing, spending so much time doing it virtually ceases to make all that much sense.

On the contrary, I can't slay a dragon in the real world, wander through a desert and kill giant worms or get in a sword fight without extreme harm coming to myself;)  I let games fill that void.  I don't need a game to reinvent he same nonsense that goes on at work or in real life on a daily basis=) 

I think you misunderdstand the term "virtual world".. Does every virtual "world" have to mimic Earth? Or even the things we do in the United States or Europe? A virtual world is a world where you exist, but have no set direction in your virtual life or existence. Everything in our real world came as a result of alot of other things, nothing was ever just "here". A true virtual world would be one where the player characters all start as basic creatures, doesn't have to be as basic as a cell, but basic in the perspective of the fantasy setting (like an early evolution of a dwarf race). Then the player characters can create items through some sort of science skills or they can change the society in anyway they see fit.

As time goes by (counted in some sort of chronological order decided by the fantasy setting) an update could change the game world completely by adding in player created objects and changes to the games history forever and also changing the characters race by adding more improved features (such as a stronger build or muscle through evolution or even intelligence).

A virtual world I believe is do-able, but it would be a very very complicated affair which would take quite some time to incorporate many facets of an evolution into a game.

A virtual world is one that is truly dynamic as in the world we live in today.

He is not asking for a game where you have to iron your clothes and rake the leaves in the yard.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

It's taken a lot longer than I thought it would, but I think we are moving inexorably towards the cheaper to develop, niche MMORPG.

The first wave of MMORPGs built with the Hero Engine have yet to arrive. That will be the first generation of games built faster with a stock Engine that is actually built for making an MMORPG, not something like the Unreal Engine cobbled together with networking solutions to force it to be an MMORPG, which is what Vanguard used.

You can build an MMORPG with the Hero Engine in as little as 2 years. couple that with a good outsourced 3d art pipeline from Asia, and would could see a near future where smaller niche MMORPGs make money.

To me this is the 'ultimate' solution to this issue.  I would love a good Virtual World game but to me many of the requirements the OP specified seem rather silly.  As such if the game the OP wants was ever made I would not play it and instead ask for a 'real'  MMOVW game to be developed.   Personally I could not stand a game that forced me to give up a character path I have originally chosen if I wanted to try something new.  It is the primary reason why I grew to dislike pre-CU SWG.  I hate being forced to regress in a game.  Either let me pursue everything on one character or let me create alts. 

The only realistic way I can see the industry catering to both of us, is to go with the boutique approach.  A lot of smaller MMOs targeted at specific niches would solve the problem with a new MMO being forced to cater to so many different expectations.  For that to happen though the cost to develop a MMO has to go way down.  Off-the-shelf engines and development kits are the only way this can happen.  If the MMO developers do not have to worry about creating and supporting an expensive backend they can put all their time and effort into molding the game into their vision. 

Originally posted by Torik

 

  Personally I could not stand a game that forced me to give up a character path I have originally chosen if I wanted to try something new.  It is the primary reason why I grew to dislike pre-CU SWG.  I hate being forced to regress in a game.  Either let me pursue everything on one character or let me create alts. 

The logic behind this though makes sense, if you think about it.

Suddenly spending all of your ttime sitting on your ass reading arcane books to learn magic is bound to make your warrior skills suffer, as you are not training and staying in shape.

Similarly, training warrior skills would impact any rogue-type skills you might have...toughening of the hands leading to lost dexterity, and increase in body mass leading to lost agility.

The problem with the SWG system was that it did not really take into account skills that could easily carry over from one class to another. Why would a commando suddenly forget how to make a camp, or mask his scent from animals?? More thought needed to be put into the system....and into the game in general, really.

I see where you are coming from OP. I was there back when Ultima Online first came out.

Let me tell you, someone would get close to Grandmaster Mage after a few months and people actually admired the person and they were a rare gem on their server. Grandmaster Blacksmith, it was an honor to use a weapon that was created by that user. Or Resist Magic, this skill took forever to get into the 80s. And Pickpocket took an eternity to get to 100.

Now games are slowly turning into item handouts and everyone has the same thing. There is no real immersion just instant gratification.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Torik

 

  Personally I could not stand a game that forced me to give up a character path I have originally chosen if I wanted to try something new.  It is the primary reason why I grew to dislike pre-CU SWG.  I hate being forced to regress in a game.  Either let me pursue everything on one character or let me create alts. 

 

The logic behind this though makes sense, if you think about it.

Suddenly spending all of your ttime sitting on your ass reading arcane books to learn magic is bound to make your warrior skills suffer, as you are not training and staying in shape.

Similarly, training warrior skills would impact any rogue-type skills you might have...toughening of the hands leading to lost dexterity, and increase in body mass leading to lost agility.

The problem with the SWG system was that it did not really take into account skills that could easily carry over from one class to another. Why would a commando suddenly forget how to make a camp, or mask his scent from animals?? More thought needed to be put into the system....and into the game in general, really.

 

From an RP and balance point of view I fully agree with you that making you choose one path you excel at makes a lot of sense.  It was actually the inability to make alts (without buying another account) that was a balck mark for SWG.   I like to experience games from multiple points of view and SWG really failed in that.

The primary problem with SWG was that as a sandbox it was very broad but also shallow.  You go a lot of different paths in the game but once you commited to a path, there just was not that much to do beyond grinding.  I was fascinated byt eh crafting in that game but the grind to skill up was unbearable (and the crafting UI quickly caused my mouse hand to go numb).

A 'sandbox' or Vitual World game has to either give us the option to experience many different 'play paths' at the same time or make each 'play path' a rich experience in itself.

And, as I've been saying for ages, the Bounty Hunter missions idea needs to be expanded, and built on.

EVERY class should have their own class-based "stuff to do". Make your class an actual profession, and not just determine what skills you get and what role you serve in a group.

Just imagine...as a thief, being tasked to steal...and rewarded for it. As a mercenary soldier, actually taking contracts from other players and NPCs. As a mage, being tasked with re-routing a river to irrigate a city, or to discover the secret behind an ancient ruin.

MMORPGs are headed in the wrong direction entirely, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, what OP wants is not going to happen.

People want games, not another life.

 

Incorrect. Some people want games. Some people want detailed worlds that take in the many facets of sentient existence, not just combat.

Not going to argue which side has "more" as, just as it's true in all aspects of real life, more people prefer the easy, less resistant route to gratification. That said, there is a healthy number of people who enjoy investing large amounts of time in gaming and have the time on hand to do so. And they prefer MMO worlds where content/game systems are in place that meaningfully make use of a user that has plenty of time to play.

If fine if you don't have the time to do so, but don't generalize it to seem as if there aren't plenty of MMO gamers out there who do. Enough to provide a long term (not the 6 months and I'm out mentality of the majority of players) loyal subscription base if only a mid to high "caste" game company would make one. Field of Dreams had it right. "If you build it, they will come". And to clarify, I'm speaking of games like UO and AC in specific and not about any other game.

 

Sure. There is always the niche market but mainstream production is trending towards where most of the audience is. MMOs are VERY EXPENSIVE endeavors and I don't see developers gimping themselves by confining to a niche.

Sure, there will be some attempt like DF but for most major production, casual is the way to go (just look at how JGE is heading).

 

Well, if you want to go that route, let's. The majority of the audience is in WoW. Mainstream production has/continues to mimic WoW. Recent efforts in this trend has seen a large population at launch (people leaving WoW to play the new shiny) only to have a sharp decline a few months (sometimes after the first month) of the new game launch (people seeing the game is 90% like WoW and wondering why they would want to start all over. Makes no sense. So, back to WoW).

Moral: Can't beat WoW at it's own game knuckleheads.

Those few attempts at trying something new are done by underfunded, small companies. They have good ideas and not enough manpower and funding to pull them off. Those that are looking for something (niche gamers as you deem us) play the new games and laud their vision but woe from their implementation.

Result: Games loses vast majority of initial subscribers and becomes "bargain" (ala Vanguard). Oh, and all of us not into WoW end up on games forums.

Yeah, this whole genre is in a bad spot. A downward spiral. Kind of sitting in the same place as our (US) economy was with our (MMO Gaming) lack of regulation being a "Stuck-on-stupid" fascination of corporate execs and shareholders on WoW. In my opinion the goal shouldn't be to mimic WoW in hopes of getting WoW numbers (which has proven time and again to not work). It should be, in fact, to come up with something so disimiliar to it in "flavor" but so like it in polish.

Originally posted by XredemptionX

 Fine just disregard my post about Wurm Online...

Wurm Online is a great sandbox style MMO, I was playing until March this year.

The number one issue with Wurm Online is it's own Dev(s). The Players can't trust them. They change the game at a drop of a tinfoil hat and openingly admit the game is unfinished and still in development.....in other words if you play you pay to play a beta game.

Originally posted by admriker4

I've been playing MMO's (and muds) before them going back 12+ years now. Yet lately I find myself never touching my gaming rig these days. In fact I have not been subscribed to an mmo going on 3 months now, the longest drought I've ever gone.

The reason for the lack of interest, frankly I'm tired of settling for a game missing several features I desire in my gamplay.

for starters, I want a virtual world. I have played linear theme park ride games (even enjoyed some briefly) but they arent for me. Virtual worlds begin with making a home for my avatar. For some reason this key feature to MMO's is being left out of development nowadays. And if it is added, its some lame instance or seperate zone. I want my house in the actual virtual game world for all to see. Player cities will develop (whether actually designed as a game feature or not) with real housing. And from player cities comes a virtual world. Please note, a house isnt just a place to store extra gear or potions.

I want a game NOT 100% focused on combat. Crafting should be a class of its own, not some secondary skill anyone can do. If I choose to become a chef, I cant also be a warlock or bounty hunter. That also means not giving players 5 toons per server, this means no alts to allow players to become totally self-sufficient.

absolutely no level system. Its flawed on so many levels (most of which players arent even aware of). A level based system uses a damage multiplier, briefly what this means is gear and skill are actually rather meaningless. A bad lvl 80 warlock player will 99.99% of the time always kill lower level mobs and vice versa die to a higher lvl mob because of the DM. All gear and skill does is determine how fast you kill or get killed by a mob. Level systems are in essence a big fat illusion

 

Dont get me wrong, linear games like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings can be fun. But they are ultimately just a game you can beat. Once the quests and raids are complete, its game over until the next expansion or patch comes. I'm tired of watching my gear become useless in 2 months and having to start over.

I'm tired of doing quests because I need xp. Whatever happened to doing quests for a nice decorative item to place in your house. How about just to have created a grateful NPC that simply smiles or greets / treats you differently when you walk by because you helped them ? Questing has become all about killing things or delivering things (which usually means killing something along the way) for more XP. And how about some kidden quests, rare spawn quests, quests only available at certain times, that dont have some idiot-proof mark to indicate "hey you a quest is here"

I'm not looking for a Second Life type of game either. I dont want to see currency to credit/gold conversions and no combat system. Im not interested in any fps gankfest like darkfall or a space sim where my avatar is just a ship (eve). And Im not going to play SWG because frankly I dont trust SOE.

The only few virtual world games I see coming are fps so theyre automatically off my radar. fps means physical skills come into play thus negating gear really. You cant kill a much weaker new player even if your rifle is amazing if you cant line up those stupid crosshairs. So for me Fallen Earth and I believe Earthrise are also out. My only hope right now is Star Trek Online but lets face it, cryptic isnt exactly known for making complex virtual world.

So for now, and maybe forever this longtime cowboy has said goodbye to the MMO genre. I've stopped sleuthing for leaks about games in development, Im not even the slightest interested in turning on my gaming rig anymore. Maybe turning 40 has something to do with it but you wont see me in any lines for midnight launches until someone makes something worthwhile.
 

You are NOT Alone. I too have almost the exact same wish list from a MMO. I too am very disappointed that with all the great talent amongst Developers now-a-days......almost no one has seen fit to address our niche  group's needs and create a game more to our liking....and this "Minority" is bigger than most people believe it is.

As some have said EvE Online fits some of the list. I subscribe to it off and on, but like you, I too find the game without character avatars not to my taste. I am looking for to the "Walking in Stations" expansion "scheduled" for 2010 or later. This just might make EvE the number one pick.

I didn't get a chance to play SWG before the Combat Upgrade, but I understand that it probably was the best fit for what Players like ourselves have been looking for. You might want to goggle SWG pre-CU sometime.

Wurm Online is also a great game that fits a number of the wants on the wish list. I played it since last summer until this March, but I left the game and will not go back. Wurm Online was originally developed by a team of Devs but is now only controlled by one Dev and he has a habit of changing major features of the game with little or no notice. The lead Dev also states that Wurm Online is still in development, so if you play it, you will be paying to play a "beta" game.....the only difference in Wurm's case is that there is no character wipes. I got tired of setting a goal ingame only to have to change it because the Dev decided to alter the fundementals of the game as a whole.

I just recently tried "A Tale in the Desert" and did not like it because the world felt so sterile and bland. I saw no animals/monsters, and the players hardly said anything at all to each other in the E! chat which is game wide. The game ran great but ATITD did not stir my fancy.

I have played Ryzom in the past...a good sandbox MMO, but I didn't ever get the feeling like the game was "permenant" becuase it has had three owners and the Player base is frustrated like crazy because of it. If Ryzom survives all the chaos I will be pleasently surprised. It does not fit the wish list as well as the others though.

So for now I play EvE and I am a lifer in LotRO because I a have a lot of my friends in RL that play LotRO, other than that I too am still searching.....

Wurm Online.