Originally posted by p0rc3lain

Originally posted by Zzulu

I found the game to be very flawed.

 

It is spouted to be a Realm vs Realm PvP game, yet the two factions are almost entirely separated from eachother via the world design from 1-40. Only in the "rvr lakes" do you find the enemy (and on many servers that is the only place you are allowed to strike at them...)

 

Did you ever play DAoC?

DAoC had way better RvR than WAR does. Things were just as seperated sure, but DAoC had: Darkness Falls, Frontier zone.

Darkness Falls was an -awesome- zone idea. The frontier zone itself was the mingling grounds between the three sides. It wasn't an instanced battleground scenario (technically you could call it an instance, but you know what I mean). And six months after release DAoC was in much better shape than WAR is six months later. I dunno what happened. I realize things aren't as simple as they were back when DAoC came out, but it was just a better game.

---

Originally posted by Capn23

 I think AoC and WAR will both end up being very nice games. They just need their time to find themselves.

---

AoC... yes.

WAR... no.

AoC has already caught up to Warhammer after being behind it for months. They fired the wrong guy and put the right guy in to run the game. That guy has made incredible changes and almost everyone agrees its tons better. AoC already had WAR beat graphically. They just had to tweak the other things (mainly TONS of buggage) and it appears they have done it pretty much.

If you look at Xfire numbers, Warhammer has not moved in months and actually has been slipping. AoC was #49 and now its #22, one spot behind WAR. That tells you are right about AoC, but wrong about WAR. AoC is not a population dependant game and there is no stupid Renown grind. So whatever gear you get at level ??, you can wear right away. You don't have to do two seperate grinds. Having your own guild city that you build and protect is a lot better than protecting a NPC city. You feel no attachment to that so if someone attacks your keep or city, you might go just for renown but not for pride. Crafting is better in AoC as well. Healers in AoC can really heal and fight at the same time. Zealots and Shammies in WAR cannot do that. Except for DoK and WP, healers in WAR are healbots pretty much.

With summer coming and other games releasing (along with AoC fixing itself up) the "potential" clock has run out on Warhammer pretty much. It's already a has-been.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

---

Originally posted by Capn23

 

 I think AoC and WAR will both end up being very nice games. They just need their time to find themselves.

---

 

 

 

AoC... yes.

WAR... no.

 

 

AoC has already caught up to Warhammer after being behind it for months. They fired the wrong guy and put the right guy in to run the game. That guy has made incredible changes and almost everyone agrees its tons better. AoC already had WAR beat graphically. They just had to tweak the other things (mainly TONS of buggage) and it appears they have done it pretty much.

 

If you look at Xfire numbers, Warhammer has not moved in months and actually has been slipping. AoC was #49 and now its #22, one spot behind WAR. That tells you are right about AoC, but wrong about WAR. AoC is not a population dependant game and there is no stupid Renown grind. So whatever gear you get at level ??, you can wear right away. You don't have to do two seperate grinds. Having your own guild city that you build and protect is a lot better than protecting a NPC city. You feel no attachment to that so if someone attacks your keep or city, you might go just for renown but not for pride. Crafting is better in AoC as well. Healers in AoC can really heal and fight at the same time. Zealots and Shammies in WAR cannot do that. Except for DoK and WP, healers in WAR are healbots pretty much.

 

With summer coming and other games releasing (along with AoC fixing itself up) the "potential" clock has run out on Warhammer pretty much. It's already a has-been.

The only thing good about AoC today is the PvE. The PvP is incredibly bad (I cannot stress this enough) and poorly designed. WAR is lightyears ahead of AoC when it comes to PvP.

However, I do find the PvE in AoC more enjoying.

It may also be that Mythic didnt want to directly compete with itself.

Compete with a 200 player base? WO got the realm fighting bit right but thats all there is.

Originally posted by emperorwings

Compete with a 200 player base? WO got the realm fighting bit right but thats all there is.

Sorry dear you are wrong. They DID NOT get the realm fighting bit right. Its crap compared to original DAoC three realm (rvr) Hibs, Mids and Albs in both classic and New Frontiers versions. Ok so now I am a WAR hatefan (don't you just love the ambiguity) :)

Sequels are the antithesis of persistent worlds.

---

Originally posted by Zzulu

 The only thing good about AoC today is the PvE. The PvP is incredibly bad (I cannot stress this enough) and poorly designed. WAR is lightyears ahead of AoC when it comes to PvP.
However, I do find the PvE in AoC more enjoying.

 

---

This is what must be giving Age of Conan it's second wind right now. The fact that it caught up to and will soon pass Warhammer in the rankings is probably because during the times when its slow, you still can solo and the quests in AoC are far superior with voice acting and more imagination/places to go. When you are stuck doing PvE in Warhammer, which out of any given 24 hour day is about 20 hours, the PvE is stinky bad and boring. Not to mention doing a lot of PvE in your offtime is bad, because you'll go far ahead of your Renown ending up with gear you cannot wear until you catch up.

The PvP may be better in WAR in your opinion, but with a shrinking population in WAR daily, that's really a moot point. If no one is playing, then it's not really that great, especially when your whole MMO concept is based on one thing: huge oRvR battles.

On the majority of their servers it's small unbalanced squad vs larger WB squads. They have absolutely NO way to fix the population/skill/level balances from T1-T3 across their servers unless you go in a scenario. Then at T4, everyone falls asleep because its basically the same style of fighting you've done for the past month. While WAR needs another 7 servers closed to be consistent, AoC's populations aren't dependant on that dynamic.

The overall potential for a better PvP game long term will go to AoC due to the guild city interactions and crafting that revolves around it, as most players like more variety in their games. In WAR, you can make a talisman or a potion. Woot! (snore)

If Funcom ever works out the kinks in some of its PvP, it will really take off.

SImple. Mythic is no longer Mythic. They are EA. EA's philosophy is quanity of quality. Same reason why TOR is going to suck. Its no longer BioWare. Its EA posing as BioWare.

Originally posted by brostyn

SImple. Mythic is no longer Mythic. They are EA. EA's philosophy is quanity of quality. Same reason why TOR is going to suck. Its no longer BioWare. Its EA posing as BioWare.

I agree there. EA bought out Mythic and in the process the original development team has taken to other projects. Maybe the original DAoC has a clause that doe not allow for a sequel. That is just a SWAG BTW.

I do know that DAoC itself went through a number of changes that drove the PvP players away. Some of the changes were more PvE and more WoW'ish design. There is no future plans to add expansions after LoM so the game is growing stale. EA Mythic should make a expansion and implement the new technology like they did back a few years ago and I think the game would actually grow.

But then again Warhammer is their newborn and the older child is getting ignored.

I played DAoC from beta and then for about a year, good game and enjoyable RvR, but I left for a new MMO as I had grown bored with the game.

WAR good experience so far and enjoying the RvR just as much as I did in DAoC, will it keep me for as long as DAoC did, who knows, but like anything else as soon as I'm bored I move onto the next game.

I don't want sequels to games I want NEW games, EQ2 was a fine attempt but EQ1 was my first MMO and tbh it was impossible to recapture what I felt in EQ1 and no other MMO will ever be able to do that for me again.

WAR I feel is a fun and interesting game, fortunately I'm not one to lift the lid up and see the inner workings of an MMO, I take things at face value and play, I have far more fun that way rather than worrying about what the game should have been.

They wanted to jump on the wow band wagon. Simple gameplay, cartoony graphics, etc. They thought they could pull more people with a wow style game than with a new daoc

It is a good question...along with how did they manage to get things that they had done right in DAoC suddenly wrong in WAR?

I think part of it was a desire to go WoW-esque and try for a larger player base....I also think that Mythic made the mistake of hiring people from other companies and got effectively the "worst of both worlds" as a dev team.

WAR RvR is a dumbed down and simplified version of what DAoC had at best. WAR PvE is intolerably boring and badly done. Too few classes, too little variety, terrible UI, etc. Heck, DAoC Catacombs was better done than all of WAR.

Which given the popularity of the Warhammer universe IP and the potential of the game is really kind of sad.

Because they only see the money WOW is making and they wanted to do something similar, focusing in RvR.

As Paul Barret or Garret said in one of his conferences, they see the ships venturing to discover unknown lands, and mostly not coming back, except a few that show how rich those lands are. He was obviously refering to WOW, and they wanted to reach the rich lands too. It's all about the money now, there is zero excitment about finding new cool games, there is really zero love for the MMO genre.

Yes it was about the money before, but the main focus was the game.

Before they loved games and they made money because of that.

Now they love money and make games because of that.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by p0rc3lain

Originally posted by Zzulu

I found the game to be very flawed.

 

It is spouted to be a Realm vs Realm PvP game, yet the two factions are almost entirely separated from eachother via the world design from 1-40. Only in the "rvr lakes" do you find the enemy (and on many servers that is the only place you are allowed to strike at them...)

 

Did you ever play DAoC?

 

DAoC had way better RvR than WAR does. Things were just as seperated sure, but DAoC had: Darkness Falls, Frontier zone.

Darkness Falls was an -awesome- zone idea. The frontier zone itself was the mingling grounds between the three sides. It wasn't an instanced battleground scenario (technically you could call it an instance, but you know what I mean). And six months after release DAoC was in much better shape than WAR is six months later. I dunno what happened. I realize things aren't as simple as they were back when DAoC came out, but it was just a better game.

Check out WAR in June, you might see "Land of the Dead" shoved down your throat so much that you'll be curious and find out it's a massive RvR-gated zone (non-instanced)/dungeon like, oh, I don't know, Darkness Falls.

Mythic didn't magically forget all their lessons from DAoC.

Originally posted by altairzq

Because they only see the money WOW is making and they wanted to do something similar, focusing in RvR.

 

As Paul Barret or Garret said in one of his conferences, they see the ships venturing to discover unknown lands, and mostly not coming back, except a few that show how rich those lands are. He was obviously refering to WOW, and they wanted to reach the rich lands too. It's all about the money now, there is zero excitment about finding new cool games, there is really zero love for the MMO genre.

Yes it was about the money before, but the main focus was the game.

Before they loved games and they made money because of that.

Now they love money and make games because of that.

Altairzfq, as much as I respect your posts, I slightly disagree.  I had a very long post made out but somehow lost the whole damn page.  Basically, Warhammer, DID try to do something different, yet keep many of the good qualities it found in other mmorpgs (wow had the same concepts but was brilliant rather then average).

Originally posted by altairzq

Because they only see the money WOW is making and they wanted to do something similar, focusing in RvR.

 

As Paul Barret or Garret said in one of his conferences, they see the ships venturing to discover unknown lands, and mostly not coming back, except a few that show how rich those lands are. He was obviously refering to WOW, and they wanted to reach the rich lands too. It's all about the money now, there is zero excitment about finding new cool games, there is really zero love for the MMO genre.

Yes it was about the money before, but the main focus was the game.

Before they loved games and they made money because of that.

Now they love money and make games because of that.

It was ALWAYS about the money, and will ALWAYS BE about the money. The only thing that has changed is the amounts. There was a time when the market was small, but the money was still attractive if you were successful. Now the market is huge and the money to be had is enormous if you are successful.

You're deluded if you think before it was about the game, and now it's about the money. It's absolutely 100% the same now as then. It's about the money, just like it was when EQ or UO first came out.

No one ever, ever makes games hoping that no one will play them, and they go bankrupt. They always always make games hoping everyone in the universe will want to play it and they will make billions. Always.

Developers ALWAYS try to make good games, because good games make money and bad games lose money. They aren't always successful, because it's an art, not a science. No developers EVER try to make bad games because they think they will be popular. Bad games are not poplar, adn lose money.

---

Originally posted by Zorndorf

As much as I can understand you, you DO need to include a guy like Mark Jacobs into the picture.
The man was always analysing so called "failures" in his eyes (like PotBS and Aoc) even weeks before he launched War. Remember when he said that not adding servers 6 months after the launch it would be bad (referring to the low success lauch of PotBS). Remember his statement of "gloves are now off" when he was actually challeging the position of Wow in the market place. MJ battles other developpers instead of making great games.
MJ even admitted of having a bet with his staff War would have 1.000.000 subs by 2009's end and he had a target of 2 to 3 million subs after two years...I believe the bet was 26 dollars.

---

Of course they do. They just not rather discuss all that. It's rather unpleasant and upsetting to them.